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Summary of Jung's Type Descriptions

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#1 ·
I came across a site that seems to provide a good summary of Jung's descriptions. What do you think? @LiquidLight, I'd especially love to hear your opinion.

(Note: I'm not putting it all in a quote because I think that italics can be difficult to read.)

The Extraverted Sensation Type

Extraverted sensation strives for intensity of experience derived from concrete objects and physical activities. Consciousness is therefore directed outward to those objects and activities that may be expected to arouse the strongest sensations.

The extraverted sensation type is a realist who seeks to experience as many concrete sensations as possible - preferably, but not necessarily, ones that are pleasurable. These experiences are seen as ends in themselves and are rarely utilized for any other purpose. If normal, such persons are sensualists or aesthetes who are attracted by the physical characteristics of objects and people. They dress, eat and entertain well, and can be very good company. Not at all reflective nor introspective, they have no ideals except sensory enoyment. They generally mistrust inner psychological processes and prefer to account for such things in terms of external events (e.g., they may blame their moods on the weather). If extreme, they are often crudely sensual and may exploit situations or others in order to increase their own personal pleasure. When neurotic, repressed intuition may be projected onto other people, so that they may become irrationally suspicious or jealous. Alternatively, they may develop a range of compulsive superstitions.
[HR][/HR] The Introverted Sensation Type

Introverted sensation is subjectively filtered. Perception is not based directly on the object, but is merely suggested by it. Instead, layers of subjective impressions are superimposed upon the image so that it becomes impossible to determine what will be perceived from a knowledge only of the object. Perception thus depends crucially upon internal psychological processes that will differ from one person to the next. At its most positive, introverted sensation is found in the creative artist. At its most extreme, it produces psychotic hallucinations and a total alienation from reality.

The introverted sensation type reacts subjectively to events in a way that is unrelated to objective criteria. Often this is seen as an inappropriate and uncalled-for overreaction. Because objects generally fail to penetrate directly the veil of subjective impressions, this type may seem neutral or indifferent to objective reality. Alternatively, the person may perceive the world as illusory or amusing. In extreme (psychotic) cases, this may result in an inability to distinguish illusion from reality. The subjective world of archaic images may then come to dominate consciousness completely, so that the person lives in a private, mythological realm of fantasy. Repressed intuition may also be expressed in vaguely imagined threats or an apprehension of sinister possibilities.
[HR][/HR] The Extraverted Intuition Type

Extraverted intuition attempts to envisage all the possibilities that are inherent in an objective situation. Ordinary events are seen as providing a cipher or set of clues from which underlying processes and hidden potentialities can be determined. Yet once these possibilities are apprehended, objects and events lose their meaning and import. There is therefore a constant need for new situations and experiences to provide a fresh stimulus for the intuitive process.

The extraverted intuition type is an excellent diagnostician and exploiter of situations. Such people see exciting possibilities in every new venture and are excellent at perceiving latent abilities in other people. They get carried away with the enthusiasm of their vision and often inspire others with the courage of their conviction. As such, they do well in occupations where these qualities are at a premium - for example in initiating new projects, in business, politics or the stock market. They are, however, easily bored and stifled by unchanging conditions. As a result they often waste their life and talents jumping from one activity to another in the search for fresh possibilities, failing to stick at any one project long enough to bring it to fruition. Furthermore, in their commitment to their own vision, they often show little regard for the needs, views or convictions of others. When neurotic, repressed sensation may cause this type to become compulsively tied to people, objects or activities that stir in them primitive sensations such as pleasure, pain or fear. The consequence of this can be phobias, hypochondriacal beliefs and a range of other compulsions.
[HR][/HR] The Introverted Intuition Type

Introverted intuition is directed inward to the contents of the unconscious. It attempts to fathom internal events by relating them to universal psychological processes or to other archetypal images. Consequently it generally has a mythical, symbolic or prophetic quality.

According to Jung, the introverted intuition type can be either an artist, seer or crank. Such a person has a visionary ideal that reveals strange, mysterious things. These are enigmatic, 'unearthly' people who stand aloof from ordinary society. They have little interest in explaining or rationalizing their personal vision, but are content merely to proclaim it. Partly as a result of this, they are often misunderstood. Although the vision of the artist among this type generally remains on the purely perceptual level, mystical dreamers or cranks may become caught up in theirs. The person's life then becomes symbolic, taking on the nature of a Great Work, mission or spiritual-moral quest. If neurotic, repressed sensation may express itself in primitive, instinctual ways and, like their extraverted counterparts, introverted intuitives often suffer from hypochondria and compulsions.
[HR][/HR] The Extraverted Thinking Type

Extraverted thinking is driven by the objective evidence of the senses or by objective (collective) ideas that derive from tradition or learning. Its purpose is to abstract conceptual relationships from objective experience, linking ideas together in a rational, logical fashion. Furthermore, any conclusions that are drawn are always directed outward to some objective product or practical outcome. Thinking is never carried out for its own sake, merely as some private, subjective enterprise.

The extraverted thinking type bases all actions on the intellectual analysis of objective data. Such people live by a general intellectual formula or universal moral code, founded upon abstract notions of truth or justice. They also expect other people to recognize and obey this formula. This type represses the feeling function (e.g., sentimental attachments, friendships, religious devotion) and may also neglect personal interests such as their own health or financial well-being. If extreme or neurotic, they may become petty, bigoted, tyrannical or hostile towards those who would threaten their formula. Alternatively, repressed tendencies may burst out in various kinds of personal 'immorality' (e.g., self-seeking, sexual misdemeanours, fraud or deception).
[HR][/HR] The Introverted Thinking Type

Introverted thinking is contemplative, involving an inner play of ideas. It is thinking for its own sake and is always directed inward to subjective ideas and personal convictions rather than outward to practical outcomes. The main concern of such thinking is to elaborate as fully as possible all the ramifications and implications of a seminal idea. As a consequence, introverted thinking can be complex, turgid and overly scrupulous. To the extent that it withdraws from objective reality, it may also become totally abstract, symbolic or mystical.

The introverted thinking type tends to be impractical and indifferent to objective concerns. These persons usually avoid notice and may seem cold, arrogant and taciturn. Alternatively, the repressed feeling function may express itself in displays of childish naivety. Generally people of this type appear caught up in their own ideas which they aim to think through as fully and deeply as possible. If extreme or neurotic they can become rigid, withdrawn, surly or brusque. They may also confuse their subjectively apprehended truth with their own personality so that any criticism of their ideas is seen as a personal attack. This may lead to bitterness or to vicious counterattacks against their critics.
[HR][/HR] The Extraverted Feeling Type

Extraverted feeling is based upon accepted or traditional social values and opinions. It involves a conforming, adjusting response to objective circumstances that strives for harmonious relations with the world. Because it depends so much on external stimuli rather than upon true subjective preferences, such feeling can sometimes seem cold, 'unfeeling', artificial or put on for effect.

The extraverted feeling type follows fashion and seeks to harmonize personal feelings with general social values. Thinking is always subordinate to feeling and is ignored or repressed if intellectual conclusions fail to confirm the convictions of the heart. When this type is extreme or neurotic, feeling may become gushing or extravagant and dependent upon momentary enthusiasms that may quickly turn about with changing circumstances. Such a person may therefore seem hysterical, fickle, moody or even to be suffering from multiple personality. Repressed thinking may also erupt in infantile, negative, obsessive ways. This can lead to the attribution of dreaded characteristics to the very objects or people that are most loved and valued.
[HR][/HR] The Introverted Feeling Type

Introverted feeling strives for an inner intensity that is unrelated to any external object. It devalues objective reality and is rarely displayed openly. When it does appear on the surface, it generally seems negative or indifferent. The focus of such feeling is upon inner processes and latent, primordial images. At its extreme, it may develop into mystical ecstasy.

The introverted feeling type is brooding and inaccessible, although may also hide behind a childish mask. Such a person aims to be inconspicuous, makes little attempt to impress and generally fails to respond to the feelings of others. The outer, surface appearance is often neutral, cold and dismissive. Inwardly, however, feelings are deep, passionately intense, and may accompany secret religious or poetic tendencies. The effect of all this on other people can be stifling and oppressive. When extreme or neurotic, this type may become domineering and vain. Negative repressed thinking may also be projected so that these persons may imagine they can know what others are thinking. This may develop into paranoia and into secret scheming rivalries.

Source

 
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#2 ·
Excellent. Looks like you nailed it.

It's often amusing to me how the descriptions of Introverted Feeling and Introverted Sensation are so completely different from how MBTI sort of re-imagined them. The other thing here is that many MBTI types (for example a MBTI ISTJ) would really be an Extraverted Thinking type and his Extraverted Intuitive is sort of a blend of ENFP/ENTP. Also we should point out that the pleasure-seeking Extraverted Sensation type would deal more with Sensation+Feeling, the Sensation+Thinking type would likely end up being more like a Te type. The ultimate empiricist as it were.
 
#4 ·
The Introverted Feeling Type

Introverted feeling strives for an inner intensity that is unrelated to any external object. It devalues objective reality and is rarely displayed openly. When it does appear on the surface, it generally seems negative or indifferent. The focus of such feeling is upon inner processes and latent, primordial images. At its extreme, it may develop into mystical ecstasy.

The introverted feeling type is brooding and inaccessible, although may also hide behind a childish mask. Such a person aims to be inconspicuous, makes little attempt to impress and generally fails to respond to the feelings of others. The outer, surface appearance is often neutral, cold and dismissive. Inwardly, however, feelings are deep, passionately intense, and may accompany secret religious or poetic tendencies. The effect of all this on other people can be stifling and oppressive. When extreme or neurotic, this type may become domineering and vain. Negative repressed thinking may also be projected so that these persons may imagine they can know what others are thinking. This may develop into paranoia and into secret scheming rivalries.

Interesting! Also makes me strongly question that I'm FI.
 
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#5 ·
The description of Fi is entirely different than any I've read, other than Jung. "[Fi] generally fails to respond to the feelings of others." How is it that dom/aux Fi has come to mean rushing to help people (having read many times that F moves in toward others in a caring/helping sense and T moves away in order to be objective) rather than disengaging from objects in order to experience depth/intensity?

I'd somewhat let go of MBTI for a while and have been studying Enneagrams, but now I'm looking at Ti/Fi again since I seem to engage in both about equally. I remove myself from the study of the object in order to gain a more objective understanding and at other times I use the object as a jumping off point to change my inner landscape in the way Fi is explained, both functions having equal importance, somewhat of an Ti intellectual exercise versus an Fi changing/raising of brainwaves in an effort to go both deeper and beyond.

So is my dominant sx instinctual subtype or an Fi creating the passion and intensity not just for people but for whatever I engage with? Is it a strong E4 in my tritype 741 that has me wanting to go deeper, or Fi? Or am I ENTP with a 741 sx which makes sorting out who I am somewhat confusing? I guess those are questions for another thread.
 
#6 ·
The description of Fi is entirely different than any I've read, other than Jung. "[Fi] generally fails to respond to the feelings of others." How is it that dom/aux Fi has come to mean rushing to help people (having read many times that F moves in toward others in a caring/helping sense and T moves away in order to be objective) rather than disengaging from objects in order to experience depth/intensity?
Yea disengaging from objects is sort of the definition of introversion in general. Intensity and depth are common to all forms of introversion not just feeling. Its just that somewhere along the way the Feeling function, got mucked up with a bunch of other stuff and I think misinterpreted wildly.
 
#7 ·
In general good, but I like to nitpick...

(correct me if I'm wrong)

These descriptions overemphasize the characters of the types, methinks, leading to "I identify with Introverted Feeling but I don't have a cold exterior" or "I'm Fe but I hate society". The Se description sounds less like valuing the external qualities of things sensed and more like hedonism. While of course one would like to focus on the nice aspects, Se still looks at the negative qualities too under normal circumstances.
 
#8 ·
I don't mind nitpicking. I've been known to do it a time or two. :tongue:

Have you read Jung's original type descriptions? If not, it'd probably be useful to know how Jung approached them. Basically, he offered two sections for each function: 1) A description of the function and its effects; and 2) A description of a "pure" type.

The latter describes a person completely characterized by that function. ... Kinda like a personification of the function, if you will. A real Se-dom should have an auxiliary to keep him from putting too much weight on his dominant function, so he would be able to step back and have considerations beyond the next experience. However, a "pure" Se type would probably just want to absorb sensations and thus could fall prey to hedonism.

... At least that's how I understand it right now. Others are free to disagree with me.
 
#31 ·
I relate both to Se and Fi. I believe I am an Fi type though in the sense that people who don't know me well think I'm very quiet and reserved, but once they get to know me, not so much, and on-line I can be really expressive in writing. It's like I have the hidden feeling of Fi that only becomes glaringly apparent in negativity, to express disagreement or disdain. I also relate to having very intense feeling, and my ESFJ exes mother even accused me of being "cold" and I believe I'm the furthest thing from it (which is why I tend to have sympathy for reserved IxTJs, knowing they have tertiary Fi, unless they're just totally obnoxious).

I also relate to Fi being domineering or meglomaniac when unhealthy. You could say that would be how I would act if I get really upset about something, if I'm really wound up.

I relate to wanting the experiences and wanting the positive experience of Se too. However, I think I actually show Fi more.

Some people have said the very fact that I even "show" Fi so much on line would make me an ExFP, but I don't see the logic in that, as I AM A WRITER.
 
#17 ·
Personally I'd propose a system of a directional dominant & inferior and pure A/T, so say; Se T F Ni, or Te S N Fi. I think that would be the best way to view things -- most of the present cognitive systems don't seem to place enough influence on the inferior and too much on the Aux.

Edit: sorry phrased it stupidly.
 
#46 ·
I like how that system would utilize fewer assumptions.

I'll say though that I don't totally fit in it as I place a lot importance on my aux... Now maybe I got that wrong and it's the inferior Ni but it doesn't seem to have the negative quality thingie :p


As a thread to make a sticky, it makes me a little worried that people will identify their persona and not their type ("I'm always on to the next big thing, so I'm a Ne type!"), but then again, what can you do for a simple, short explanation? Maybe I'm looking too much into this. The "X type people" don't sound too appealing, right?
Wouldn't the persona issue be present for JCF functions too?

How do you differentiate between your persona, ego and self?

I don't even like the idea of identifying the whole of your being with the functions, let alone just with a dominant function.
 
#23 ·
Although I want @Coyote to post an opinion rather than just lurking and thanking our posts (;
Haha, sorry! I really should turn off my instant notifications, 'cause I feel obligated to pop on here and thank you guys. When I have more time later, I would love to participate in your interesting discussion. :)
 
#26 ·
I seem to re-evaluate mine every few months. The OP's post has thrown me once again into confusion, which seems to be the state I spend the most time in with regard to MBTI, this time Ti vs. Fi. The confusion fascinates me though, which is why I've spent more time studying M-B than Enneagrams, since my Enneagram types are clear.

One of the ways I decided I'm more likely to be Ne than Se is that I understand and connect well with INTPs and INFPs, while I don't understand well or connect with ISTPs or ISFPs ways of thinking or dealing with the world. I guess whatever works. ;) It's possible I'd test as a Nardi Se, since nature is my first love and my mind would likely light up when dealing with nature or looking out a window, as Nardi's Se's do.
 
#35 ·
The Introverted Sensation Type

The subjective world of archaic images may then come to dominate consciousness completely, so that the person lives in a private, mythological realm of fantasy.
The Introverted Intuition Type

It attempts to fathom internal events by relating them to universal psychological processes or to other archetypal images. Consequently it generally has a mythical, symbolic or prophetic quality.


Such a person has a visionary ideal that reveals strange, mysterious things.
The Introverted Feeling Type

The focus of such feeling is upon inner processes and latent, primordial images.
I wonder what all these "archaic images" and "mysterious things" that Jung associates with the inner world of introverts are supposed to be. I mean, what do they look like? Where do they come from? Are they like dreams? Daydreams? Are they static images, or do they move? Do you see them all at once, or one at a time? Do they compete for your attention? Do extraverts have them too, but simply pay them no mind because they aren't as interesting as whatever is going on in the external world?

When these "primordial" images get projected onto the external world, is it at that point that they become hallucinations? (Surely it isn't only the Introverted Sensing type that's prone to hallucinations in unbalanced states. What about the other Introverted Irrational type?)
@Coyote Do you like Si as a concept; or do you mean your own personal experience with it?
 
#37 ·
I wonder what all these "archaic images" and "mysterious things" that Jung associates with the inner world of introverts are supposed to be. I mean, what do they look like? Where do they come from? Are they like dreams? Daydreams? Are they static images, or do they move? Do you see them all at once, or one at a time? Do they compete for your attention? Do extraverts have them too, but simply pay them no mind because they aren't as interesting as whatever is going on in the external world?

When these "primordial" images get projected onto the external world, is it at that point that they become hallucinations? (Surely it isn't only the Introverted Sensing type that's prone to hallucinations in unbalanced states. What about the other Introverted Irrational type?)
Hmm. You raised some interesting points. If you don't mind, I'd like to do some reading and reflecting on the first half of your post before I try to posit a theory or offer an opinion. (And, obviously, anyone who has a view is more than welcome to share it.)

Although right now I can't really clarify the "primordial images" aspect of this discussion, I can explain why I think that Si may be disproportionately affected by this particular issue.

First, though, could we clarify how we're interpreting his statement? Let's look at it again:
Jung said:
The subject has an illusory conception of reality, which in pathological cases goes so far that he is no longer able to distinguish between the real object and the subjective perception. Although so vital a distinction reaches the vanishing point only in near-psychotic states ....
Now, it sounds like he's saying that Si can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality once the user is near psychosis. That doesn't necessarily mean that Si is causing the psychosis. But since Si is subjective perception (personalized sensation), what he sees even when he's healthy isn't actually reality. There's a barrier. So once he's extremely unhealthy, it makes sense that his Si would take over and all that he could see would be his skewed perceptions of reality. That could lead to visual hallucinations and such, since we're dealing with a sensing function.

What do you think? Does that make sense in theory?

@Coyote Do you like Si as a concept; or do you mean your own personal experience with it?
I think more the former than the latter, but I guess that's more because I'm kinda weird. I saw A Beautiful Mind when I was a teenager and it kinda freaked me out because I know that I have a rather tenuous grasp of reality. It's like reality doesn't feel real to me. If Si is even partly responsible for that, then I don't thank it. :p

But as a concept, I think that Si is great. And some parts of Jung's Si description are almost poetic. For example, I love this part:
Introverted sensation apprehends the background of the physical world rather than its surface. The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, of the primordial images which, in their totality, constitute a psychic mirror-world. ... We could say that introverted sensation transmits an image which does not so much reproduce the object as spread over it the patina of age-old subjective experience and the shimmer of events still unborn.
@Mizmar: What are your own thoughts and/or experiences regarding Si?
 
#39 ·
@Coyote, thanks for 5 minutes of giggles. :D We need to start a group called Thankers Anonymous so we can get support while kicking this embarrassing habit. ;)

The Nardi book is called "Neuroscience of Personality." I think it's meant more as a first look at how MBTI might map to the brain, and isn't particularly scientific. Here's a PerC thread that might answer some questions:

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/92291-dario-nardis-neuroscience-personality.html

This is from page 91: "The Se types may easily show more brain activity while looking out the window or rising to stretch than when doing desk work." I also read it elsewhere, but can't remember where atm.
 
#40 ·
@Coyote, thanks for 5 minutes of giggles. :D We need to start a group called Thankers Anonymous so we can get support while kicking this embarrassing habit. ;)
You wanna start a thread for it? It'd probably the most-thanked thread in PerC history. :tongue:

The Nardi book is called "Neuroscience of Personality." I think it's meant more as a first look at how MBTI might map to the brain, and isn't particularly scientific. Here's a PerC thread that might answer some questions:

http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive-functions/92291-dario-nardis-neuroscience-personality.html

This is from page 91: "The Se types may easily show more brain activity while looking out the window or rising to stretch than when doing desk work." I also read it elsewhere, but can't remember where atm.
Thanks, I'll look into that. :happy:
 
#44 ·
I came across a site that seems to provide a good summary of Jung's descriptions. What do you think?
Hey pretty nice stuff. I haven't spent time on MBTI for a while but this is a cool post.

I like how this is the same as the sum-up my own impressions from reading the jung book.

Of course I still cannot truly identify with any of these eight pure dominant function descriptions...

I don't think that's necessarily a problem though.

Here's my comparison as MBTI ESTP or something like that... (I'm not a typical ESTP or any typical type)


Se: I'm not and never been a hedonist. I'm also not happy if my life is just experiences and no more beyond that. My purpose in my life in general is a lot more than that, though I'll admit to the fact that I can spend a lot of time just in-the-moment without being productive beyond that. But that in-the-moment stuff is not about directly enjoying sensations in this passive way depicted here. For me it's about interaction with the world, people, doing challenges, etc. I'm not suspicious when stressed, but I do get the compulsion as described. Let me note here, I'm not prone to any of the other neurotic inferior function expressions as described in this summary. Just this one a bit and a bit of the Te one, maybe.

Si: That's not me, period.

Ne: I like possibilities and like to pursue my vision and goals but I don't stop so quick, I prefer to enjoy the fruits of my work. Also, I don't keep seeing possibilities in everything, not on a conscious level for sure. Maybe unconsciously :shrug:

Ni: Nah not me.

Te: I so totally relate to the idea of looking at abstract conceptual relationships from objective experience. And yeah I like to utilize my thinking for some practical goal. But it's not true that I never carry out thinking l'art pour l'art. Also I don't care about tradition, that doesn't define my way of thinking. My actions are usually not based on analysis. I don't care if others follow my thinking "formula".

Ti: Yeah if I introvert I tend to do this contemplation. Still, I don't have the patience nor the interest to sit for hours to flesh out an idea fully. I do it more on-and-off for a few seconds or minutes whenever I get inspired. But I do like to finish fleshing out of the idea sooner or later, whenever I get there. I create my own logical symbols, so yeah to that too... but no, I don't want anything mystical. Fuck that. I relate to the being cold/arrogant part when I'm in this cognitive "mode", but it doesn't last all day. I can identify with my ideas to some extent, but I don't see disagreement as personal attack. My Fe is hopefully not this childishly naive anymore.

Fe: Yeah I depend on external stimuli for this kind of F stuff. I have the momentary enthusiasm thingie too just not with this gushing feeling thing. So maybe that's just Se?? Thinking overrides Fe easily for me though, it's Fe that's subordinate. So yeah... not my dominant function.

Fi: That's not me, I rarely have deep feelings... I like the idea though, give me some Fi? :)


Also we should point out that the pleasure-seeking Extraverted Sensation type would deal more with Sensation+Feeling, the Sensation+Thinking type would likely end up being more like a Te type. The ultimate empiricist as it were.
Well, then, it explains why I related to that part of Te about empiricism along with some abstraction, yet not to the rest of Te. And not to the mindless hedonism either.

That part of Te ("looking at abstract conceptual relationships from objective experience") was the only thing that I really fully related to in the descriptions.
 
#47 ·
@itsme45, I'll just comment on a couple things since I'm in typing burnout. I also have the book that contains Chapter X and it's sitting nice and neatly on my bookshelf, where I hope it's going to stay rather than reaching out and grabbing me as I walk past, a terrifying thought. ;) I'll see which direction my studies go before tackling the info in the book.

Psychoanalysis would be interesting but talking about dreams and symbolism isn't my main interest, though I have a strong mystical side. When you asked why I attributed deeper and beyond to Fi, it's the mystical side that can be accessed in that manner, a depth then a breakthrough beyond.

From my readings about brain quadrants, it's still somewhat unclear whether personality can be mapped so directly, but if there is some truth in it, people do tend to have a dominant brain quadrant that requires much less energy to use than other quadrants. After that, the patterns are different, with some seeming to have their second equally in adjoining quadrants, and even those who have the diagonal as the aux. My tentative opinion is that people do have a 4-pattern that's inherently most comfortable, with the diagonal/inferior being the most difficult to access, but it's difficult to have an upbringing and life that will align with individual patterns and people are lucky to be able to use their dominant most often, then aux, and to understand those are their strengths. If the world was a different place, one of the most important aspects of childhood would be to learn strengths/gifts and be encouraged to use them.
 
#49 ·
@itsme45, I'll just comment on a couple things since I'm in typing burnout. I also have the book that contains Chapter X and it's sitting nice and neatly on my bookshelf, where I hope it's going to stay rather than reaching out and grabbing me as I walk past, a terrifying thought. ;) I'll see which direction my studies go before tackling the info in the book.
Lol about that. ;) My burnout seems to be deeper than yours then, as I don't think it would ever grab me like that again :D Maybe it's not a burnout, it's just that I reached my conclusions and that's all I need. Though sure I can meddle in some details out of curiosity or I wouldn't be posting here at all :)


Psychoanalysis would be interesting but talking about dreams and symbolism isn't my main interest, though I have a strong mystical side. When you asked why I attributed deeper and beyond to Fi, it's the mystical side that can be accessed in that manner, a depth then a breakthrough beyond.
I subscribe to the cognitive approach even if it is about treating a person. I see psychoanalytical methods as overcomplicated, running through hoops where this wouldn't be needed to treat someone.

Okay so... Why do you think that's Fi and not Ni?


From my readings about brain quadrants, it's still somewhat unclear whether personality can be mapped so directly, but if there is some truth in it, people do tend to have a dominant brain quadrant that requires much less energy to use than other quadrants. After that, the patterns are different, with some seeming to have their second equally in adjoining quadrants, and even those who have the diagonal as the aux. My tentative opinion is that people do have a 4-pattern that's inherently most comfortable, with the diagonal/inferior being the most difficult to access, but it's difficult to have an upbringing and life that will align with individual patterns and people are lucky to be able to use their dominant most often, then aux, and to understand those are their strengths. If the world was a different place, one of the most important aspects of childhood would be to learn strengths/gifts and be encouraged to use them.
Nobody ever claimed there were such actual brain quadrants, at least I recall that the PDF that's out there that talks about these quadrants says that this brain map isn't to be taken literally. I doubt anyway that it's mapped this directly, the brain is more complex than that. The quadrant stuff is merely meant to be a schematic map for a visual sum-up of ideas. A descriptive map at that. I mean, if you put a quadrant diagonally, do not use this as explanation for it being hard to use. You put the quadrant there in a diagonal manner because you already think for some reason that it's hard to use. Otherwise you'd just get into circular logic.

Anyway, I'm interested in what makes you think that some people use the hardest-to-use strengths as e.g. their auxiliary?

I do like the last sentence, I think similar to that. If I get to have kids, I'll give/allow them opportunities and encourage to explore everything, then wherever they get to in developing their strengths as a result, will be fine by me. I mean, whatever they like and choose to work on more, will probably be because they are naturally adept at it. There would of course be a little structure to all this, e.g. I'd encourage development some of the most important stuff, intellectual skills, physical skills, social skills and so on... example, I'd teach them basic math skills early (I don't care if the kid is F or T type :p) yet also have them involved in sports (I don't care if N or S type :p).

The point is, I would not rely on a theory that tries to predict where their strengths are. I'd let them find their way even if the theory says it's impossible to go that way. Also, it is a good question what it depends on which skills are the most comfortable. Genes for sure, but early development as well. I'm so crazy about this topic because I know from experience that early development matters greatly.

And yeah I myself wonder if it happens to people that their genetical strengths get so discouraged early in life that later it's hard to catch up and find them again? If so, how hard? When is it too late? Can you get to love and be comfortable with the alternative after lots of practice? Etc...

There was a guy who tried to prove that early development matters the most. He had three kids; three girls. They had them play chess a lot from an early age, result? One of them went on to compete against the best male chess players. She was in top ten or so at one time I think... The others also did really great in female chess competitions. Hoo-hum. One interesting tidbit about this, one of the girls was said to be the most creative and talented but she was not so interested in the chess... obviously due to this, she practiced less, didn't get as far in competitions as her sisters, quit, started doing something else that she liked more. So ability doesn't equal comfortability?
 
#50 ·
@itsme45:

Fi, to quote the first post of the thread: "Introverted feeling strives for an inner intensity that is unrelated to any external object. ...feelings are deep, passionately intense, and may accompany secret religious or poetic tendencies." Ni: "...attempts to fathom internal events by relating them to universal psychological processes or to other archetypal images. Consequently it generally has a mythical, symbolic or prophetic quality." I'm using Fi, intensity and depth of feelings, rather than Ni, psychological processes or images/symbols. Both functions can lead to a breakthrough and Fi isn't the only function/practice I use for that purpose, but it's easier for me than mindfulness or some other practices.

My understanding is that some authors do subscribe to the brain quadrant theory -- Ned Herrmann and Katherine Benziger are two -- but they're using it to simplify the brain in order to show in general where characteristics originate. I'm not saying it's correct in location but like any typing method that starts by dividing into 4's, such as MBTI, there are insights to be gained. As for the diagonal part of the brain being the most difficult to access, I read the physical reason but can't remember where I saw it. If true, it would explain why, if someone uses one part of the brain most easily, the opposite side would take the most energy to access, though I'm not positive if it would correlate directly with MBTI dom/inf.

Kids do need to learn the basics and I think learning to use N, S, T and F with some competence is important, especially T to back up F and vice versa. The more variety kids are exposed to, the more they'll have to choose from when finding where their gifts line cross their interests line. I think it can be difficult to catch up for some people, for example I was pushed into introversion for my first 18 years, since it was much safer to hide away and not talk or ask to go anywhere with friends. As soon as I left home I found out I was an extrovert, but one result is that I didn't have those early lessons in how to talk comfortably with everyone so I can only connect easily with maybe 50 percent of people I meet.
 
#51 ·
@itsme45:

Fi, to quote the first post of the thread: "Introverted feeling strives for an inner intensity that is unrelated to any external object. ...feelings are deep, passionately intense, and may accompany secret religious or poetic tendencies." Ni: "...attempts to fathom internal events by relating them to universal psychological processes or to other archetypal images. Consequently it generally has a mythical, symbolic or prophetic quality." I'm using Fi, intensity and depth of feelings, rather than Ni, psychological processes or images/symbols. Both functions can lead to a breakthrough and Fi isn't the only function/practice I use for that purpose, but it's easier for me than mindfulness or some other practices.
Ok I'm just curious, how do these deep feelings create an inner landscape? How does Fi do this "changing/raising of brainwaves in an effort to go both deeper and beyond" for you? Just some more elaboration/more details? :)


My understanding is that some authors do subscribe to the brain quadrant theory -- Ned Herrmann and Katherine Benziger are two -- but they're using it to simplify the brain in order to show in general where characteristics originate. I'm not saying it's correct in location but like any typing method that starts by dividing into 4's, such as MBTI, there are insights to be gained. As for the diagonal part of the brain being the most difficult to access, I read the physical reason but can't remember where I saw it. If true, it would explain why, if someone uses one part of the brain most easily, the opposite side would take the most energy to access, though I'm not positive if it would correlate directly with MBTI dom/inf.
Can you remember what this physical reason is?

You said this opposite site could be forced to be used as aux due to life circumstances, did you see something that made you think of this possibility? What was it?


Kids do need to learn the basics and I think learning to use N, S, T and F with some competence is important, especially T to back up F and vice versa.
My main idea here is have them learn some basics earlier than others usually do in school.


The more variety kids are exposed to, the more they'll have to choose from when finding where their gifts line cross their interests line. I think it can be difficult to catch up for some people, for example I was pushed into introversion for my first 18 years, since it was much safer to hide away and not talk or ask to go anywhere with friends. As soon as I left home I found out I was an extrovert, but one result is that I didn't have those early lessons in how to talk comfortably with everyone so I can only connect easily with maybe 50 percent of people I meet.
Yea variety is the other main idea :) But with a balance, intensity > variety for me anyway...

Well I was also pushed into some introversion when young. Yet, I can connect to anyone when I'm in the mood. I talked to loads of random people for a few months before I got smooth at this. I was about 18 when I did that :) Though I think motivation matters, it's not like it was practice just for the sake of learning this, I was doing all this talking for fun! But, I have to be in the mood :) It's not hard to be in that mood though... just look and talk with this openness (is it Se?). :eek:

Btw not sure why you think 50% is a shit rate :) It's pretty good... What happens with the other 50 percent?
 
#52 ·
One way of approaching spiritual/personal growth is by raising the brain waves, which can be found via googling. People use this type of practice as one method to set one up to gain a Zen-type enlightenment or to not get caught up forever in negative states, both of which I was referring to with the "beyond." I find it easy and like to use something in life as a trigger to get me into a different mindset/emotional/brain wave state so I can more easily see the big picture and can function better and more happily. It's not a minor feeling -- it's very powerful, and can be used as a way station along the road to growth, or maybe something you take with you without it being the end result but a process toward beyond.

As for the physical reason for not being able to as easily access diagonal parts of the brain, I spent over a half hour yesterday and today trying to find the article that explains scientifically, with no luck. I can find plenty of articles that say it's so, but not with backup info. What I remember reading is that there are no direct links between diagonal parts of the brain, so it has to be accessed by going through an adjacent part.

Continuing with the brain quadrant theory and to answer your question, my husband uses opposite parts of the brain almost equally, to the point where he's not sure which is native. He scored 50/50 N/S on the official MBTI test. Counter to what official MBTI theory says about what happens to the N and S when they score equally, he's more INTJ at work, ISTJ at home, but the Ni and Si both frequently pull him in different directions and it can wear him out at times. He doesn't know which to go with more strongly, since both pulls are about equal. I don't know if I'd call either aux, exactly, more that opposite sides can both be strong. If I'm recalling correctly, either "The Whole Brain Business Book," by Ned Herrmann, or "Thriving in Mind," by Katherine Benziger, talked about the issue of strengths on opposite sides of the brain.

As for introversion, I tried getting over it early on by working as a waitress, with some but not total success, and I still have nightmares about the time 10 tables of people showed up at the same time when I was alone. :D The other 50 percent of people I can't connect with well, it's just this general awkwardness of not knowing what to say. It's not a fear of people, just a duh, now what do I say? ;) I know plenty of extroverts who can talk to anyone. Part of my problem is that I'm not good at and don't enjoy small talk, beyond the first 30 seconds or so.

Anyway, I'm off for a couple days. :)
 
#53 ·
One way of approaching spiritual/personal growth is by raising the brain waves, which can be found via googling. People use this type of practice as one method to set one up to gain a Zen-type enlightenment or to not get caught up forever in negative states, both of which I was referring to with the "beyond." I find it easy and like to use something in life as a trigger to get me into a different mindset/emotional/brain wave state so I can more easily see the big picture and can function better and more happily. It's not a minor feeling -- it's very powerful, and can be used as a way station along the road to growth, or maybe something you take with you without it being the end result but a process toward beyond.
Sounds like nice stuff! I'm not sure this is related to functions? Or if it is, then this would be an example of directly learning to use a function better :p


As for the physical reason for not being able to as easily access diagonal parts of the brain, I spent over a half hour yesterday and today trying to find the article that explains scientifically, with no luck. I can find plenty of articles that say it's so, but not with backup info. What I remember reading is that there are no direct links between diagonal parts of the brain, so it has to be accessed by going through an adjacent part.
I think there is nothing that explains it scientifically, I remember reading this, it's just an assumption included with the brain map. There is no neurological research pointing to such parts as connected to functions.

Also... this only makes sense if we find a part or area of the brain of the person that all activity always defaults to, the home of your consciousness, and for certain functions that's not been done even by Nardi, instead it's a general pattern... (I think it was so for Ne, Se, Ni...)


Continuing with the brain quadrant theory and to answer your question, my husband uses opposite parts of the brain almost equally, to the point where he's not sure which is native. He scored 50/50 N/S on the official MBTI test. Counter to what official MBTI theory says about what happens to the N and S when they score equally, he's more INTJ at work, ISTJ at home, but the Ni and Si both frequently pull him in different directions and it can wear him out at times. He doesn't know which to go with more strongly, since both pulls are about equal.
I guess he could just decide based on situation... use one approach in a kind of situation, use the other in another kind of situation, then no pull :)
 
#54 ·
To anyone who's reading: I'm now moving over a Jung vs. MBTI conversation that was de-railing another thread.

@adverseaffects

I hesitate to directly address your disagreements because I think that our basic POVs are different. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're using MBTI as the baseline, and then comparing Jung to that. In contrast, I think that the differences between Psychological Types and MBTI are due to the latter's corruption of Jung's original theory. For example, you said:

If you read pure Jung, or at least, when I read pure Jung, I see in his descriptions of Ti doms for example, qualities that would be found due to the presence of other functions but Jung saw that as truly personified by Ti itself... however it would be a Ti-Si loop at play, for example.
To me, it sounds like you're comparing Jung's work to your pre-existing MBTI knowledge. If you're committed to MBTI's definitions of the functions, then yes, Jung's Ti does sound like a mix. But if you start with Jung and then read MBTI, it just sounds like MBTI has screwed up the functions.

For example, I originally had trouble distinguishing Ti and Ni in my own personality, so I had some doubts about my type. But reading Jung solved the problem, because I realized that the faux Ni was actually just another aspect of my Ti.

Also ... I don't really want to go into a long spiel about it or anything, but I don't like MBTI "loops." While I was learning MBTI, I used them to try to explain my seemingly odd combination of Ti and Ni (my Se sucks, so INFJ in a dom-tert loop was the only way to solve the puzzle). So I do understand the appeal ... but I think that it's a crutch that's used to compensate for MBTI's inherent weaknesses. Why jury-rig MBTI when you could just use Jung's theory and everything would make more sense?


My impression -but I haven't looked into the arguments of 'Isabel'- is that the fourth letter is a way of determining Fi or Fe (etc).
In essence, yes, that's what J/P is indicating. That's why you can determine an entire function stack from the four-letter code, since the J/P will tell you whether the preferred perceiving or judging function is extraverted. Unfortunately, people use those letters in such limited ways that we're better off without 'em. I've already addressed the stereotypes about organization and responsible behavior, but they can cause serious typing problems.

A relevant example might be INFP vs. INFJ. They have entirely different function stacks, and yet some people seem torn on which one to select. And why wouldn't they be? If the only apparent difference between the types is that one is organized and the other is messy (or whichever stereotypes you want to use), then yeah, I can see a lot of people being like ... "But I'm a mix! I procrastinate and stuff, but I also try to be neat and organized. Gosh, this is so confusing. :frustrating: Well, fine, I'll just say that I'm an INFX." ... And can you really blame them for giving up?

On the other hand, if you were to directly address the issue of Ni-Fe vs. Fi-Ne, it's a LOT easier for people to figure out their type (or at least narrow down the options).

It's for most easier to determine F/T than Fi/Fe.
In my opinion, it depends on the person and type. I'm inclined to say that people who have judging functions as their dominant and inferior are more likely to be able to determine the directions, but not the orders.

For example, I spent some time wavering between INTP and INFJ. I knew that I used Ti and Fe, but I wasn't clear on which one was "more important." So I could answer Fe > Fi, but not T > F. (Until I abandoned MBTI's focus on the dominant and auxiliary functions, and learned more about the importance of the inferior function. Then it all made sense.)

... But, obviously, YMMV.

That is my idea, because we 'internalize' values anyway, and of course the narrow link with emotion. It's what you feel/value, but it's less clear if we 'create' those values ourselves (like in a Nietzschean sense) or that we 'conform' to our environment. For instance, if you look at a group of peace protesters, the desire for peace may perhaps be a true value from within, but the lifestyle and clothing may be a lot Fe determined and to some extend conformist. You don't see many guys in a suit among them (which would truly be non-conformist in that context). They also have their code of conduct, etc.
I'm sorry, but could we clarify which definitions we're using for the functions here? (True Jungian or MBTI-based?)

Fi is a lot like Ti: It's interested in what it's interested in, and there's not a whole lot that the external world can do about it. If an Fi-dom believes in a cause and is determined to protest as a result, then he's going to protest, regardless of what others might say. On the other hand, an Fe-dom would be more inclined to attend a peace rally because that behavior is expected of him and it reflects well on him. Neither Feeling function is better than the other, but they do have very different concerns and valuations of the external world.

Just as it is more difficult to seperate Ti from Te, because usually people do both, or at least the differences are subtle. The same with Si/e and Ni/e
I think that the inclination to use both directions (e.g., Ti and Te) occurs with the auxiliary and tertiary functions. That's why Jung phrased it more like, Introverted Thinking + Intuition, because the auxiliary doesn't necessarily have a set direction. (There's a lot that could be said on that topic.)

But your dominant and inferior function are pretty much set in their directions.

So...for instance Ni as opposed to Ne is convergent (closure) vs. divergent (expanding possibities, 'leaving things open'). Ni corresponds with J and Ne with P. J's also 'want to know the rules beforehand' (Fe), and 'make to-do lists' (Te).
Those sound like MBTI definitions ... so I'm gonna shy away from analyzing the claims.

In other words, the fourth letter seems to be a sort of tool to distinct the cognitive functions (attitude/direction) NiFe from NeFi, based on behavioral pattern (organize life).
"Tool" would be a good word, although I tend to think of it as more of a "shortcut." ... Which I think is pretty reflective of MBTI as a whole.
 
#55 ·
In essence, yes, that's what J/P is indicating. That's why you can determine an entire function stack from the four-letter code, since the J/P will tell you whether the preferred perceiving or judging function is extraverted. Unfortunately, people use those letters in such limited ways that we're better off without 'em. I've already addressed the stereotypes about organization and responsible behavior, but they can cause serious typing problems.

A relevant example might be INFP vs. INFJ. They have entirely different function stacks, and yet some people seem torn on which one to select. And why wouldn't they be? If the only apparent difference between the types is that one is organized and the other is messy (or whichever stereotypes you want to use), then yeah, I can see a lot of people being like ... "But I'm a mix! I procrastinate and stuff, but I also try to be neat and organized. Gosh, this is so confusing. :frustrating: Well, fine, I'll just say that I'm an INFX." ... And can you really blame them for giving up?

On the other hand, if you were to directly address the issue of Ni-Fe vs. Fi-Ne, it's a LOT easier for people to figure out their type (or at least narrow down the options).



In my opinion, it depends on the person and type. I'm inclined to say that people who have judging functions as their dominant and inferior are more likely to be able to determine the directions, but not the orders.

For example, I spent some time wavering between INTP and INFJ. I knew that I used Ti and Fe, but I wasn't clear on which one was "more important." So I could answer Fe > Fi, but not T > F. (Until I abandoned MBTI's focus on the dominant and auxiliary functions, and learned more about the importance of the inferior function. Then it all made sense.)

... But, obviously, YMMV.

I'm sorry, but could we clarify which definitions we're using for the functions here? (True Jungian or MBTI-based?)

Fi is a lot like Ti: It's interested in what it's interested in, and there's not a whole lot that the external world can do about it. If an Fi-dom believes in a cause and is determined to protest as a result, then he's going to protest, regardless of what others might say. On the other hand, an Fe-dom would be more inclined to attend a peace rally because that behavior is expected of him and it reflects well on him. Neither Feeling function is better than the other, but they do have very different concerns and valuations of the external world.



I think that the inclination to use both directions (e.g., Ti and Te) occurs with the auxiliary and tertiary functions. That's why Jung phrased it more like, Introverted Thinking + Intuition, because the auxiliary doesn't necessarily have a set direction. (There's a lot that could be said on that topic.)

But your dominant and inferior function are pretty much set in their directions.



Those sound like MBTI definitions ... so I'm gonna shy away from analyzing the claims.

"Tool" would be a good word, although I tend to think of it as more of a "shortcut." ... Which I think is pretty reflective of MBTI as a whole.
Yes I understand your arguments, but you are familiar with the theory. For me the differences are also clear, but I don't think it's so obvious as the theory or you suggest. Of course yes, when you single out a certain action/judgement/opinion. But we've seen on type me threads (the only two I have joined in) that it's not easy to do that even based on a questionaire, with follow up questions. It's still ambiguous. I think you and I agree that it's better to get to know the theory and make the assessment yourself, instead. But that requires a lot of elaboration and reflection, so my point was more that MBTI is useful for making a quick assessment, provided a certain margin of error.

It's nice to check the stereotypes, but it doesn't help you very much in terms of 'soul searching'. And particularly distorting when you are looking for AN identity not so much YOUR identity. (I actually prefer to leave identity out of it completely, as it is more about 'how' (function) rather than 'what' (type) or 'who' (identity) )
 
#59 · (Edited)
When I read the Jungian description of Fi (which is echoed in these summaries), I am oddly struck by the familiarity of the "childlike mask". It's almost enough to make me wonder if I'm some sort of INTJ/INFP hybrid (MBTI speaking) or, NiFi/TeSe (Jung Speak).

The thing that holds me back from that type is that I cannot deny the Ti & Te that I seem to use, collectively, way more than I use Fi.

fascinating stuff.

Edit: sorry to anyone who doesn't appreciate this blast from the past. This thread was linked to in someone else's type me thread and I didn't think it would be appropriate to talk about my own experiences on their thread.
 
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