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Deal with INTJ Ti Critic?

8K views 33 replies 12 participants last post by  Eric B 
#1 ·
So, I got this INTJ friend I've known now for a few years.
And suddenly he tells me how he'd like to "run away with ears covered" simply because I talk with Ti.
Besides other questions, Ti is my hero while it's his critic so he automatically takes it as critique, and I'm only adding to the conversation to have some arguing, you know. I can't just "assume he's right", because then I'd just shut down, except if I can continue from there and use Ti again.
And don't talk to me about using Se instead, if it's his Inferior function he'd rather avoid :unsure:

So what can I do or what can he do to use his critic to his advantage?
 
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#3 · (Edited)
Ok so for what I know, arguing is only a small part. It's more about noticing details, which I can work on if they're not important. But if I believe them to make a difference or to add nuance, I'll feel obliged to bring it up. I just can't see how this is annoying? You just want to talk about sheep or what is it?

In other words, how do I deal with Ni?
Just to counter you, INTJ (yes, playing it again): it works both ways.
 
#5 ·
I think function stacking makes the whole difference here.

IXTJs and ExTPs have their thinking function as support, so they tend to see more eye to eye on logical matters. ExTPs appreciate IxTJs for being no-non sense and getting to the point whilst the IxTJs appreciate ExTPs for showing them that some stuff is not as cut and dry as they thought.

But dominant thinker vs. auxiliary thinker can lead to butting heads at time. In this case, an ISTP who thinks the INTJ just goes with factual data and never questions anything, whereas the INTJ thinks the ISTP over-complicates things needlessly.


And this is across the board with all functions. An IxFP for instance can easily clash with an IxFJ because the latter thinks the former is too self-centered, morally uptight and just want them to act like decent people.
 
#7 ·
Hey Dissymetry, what kind of model do you mean then?
I've seen one going by where either the parent or the hero dominates (ISTP-Ti or ISTP-Se vs INTJ-Ni or INTJ-Te).
If that's what you mean, I just asked him (response in a few hours).
He does seem to use both (almost?) equally, which, quoting
Dissymetry said:
INTJs get to be big picture and practical. How cool is that?
is pretty awesome! (I understand that's not "how it works" but hey, impression)

That's where I think an ISTP and INTJ can help each other: details vs big picture for the same plan.
On the other hand, I'd want to develop my Ni too since this is what he loves to do and he already adapted to me enough.
According to Jung it's playtime for me anyway (but a kid can get tired).
 
#8 ·
So what can I do or what can he do to use his critic to his advantage?
This is a really good question and I think about what other people can do to use my critic to my advantage and it's a difficult thing because I don't actually feel irritated by Ti. I'm actually pretty enamoured and fascinated by it. I would suggest your INTJ would have much more problems with his deceiving function (Fe).

I suggest reading up on Beebe. He uses slightly different archetypes as names for the 8 function model but he might have more clues than anyone on here can give for this. Here is the best link I've found on Beebe's 8 function model:

Understanding the Archetypes involving the eight functions of type (Beebe model)

I really hope this helps. Is it possible that he's not an INTJ? The reason I ask is that what you're describing sounds more like Ti in the 7th position rather than the 6th.

Hope this helps!
 
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#9 ·
Well I sure can't tell him he's ESFP or he'll kill me :laughing:
But I'm positive he is one, he's also the one who introduced me to MBTI. I'll take a look at this soon, when I have more time again ;) very much appreciated.
 
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#10 ·
I'd be surprised if it really was Ti that was causing him to want to run away. INTJ are typically decent with Ti - it's not our first choice and it's communicated differently since it's not blocked with Se like it is for you, but an INTJ should not be bothered as badly by it as you wrote.

For the record as well, I've seen INTJ (on this forum) blame all kinds of things on other peoples' cognitive functions, when there's no real evidence for it being that function aside from them saying so.

You're right on in saying that it's a two way street. I'd have a hard time being friends with someone who wanted to run away from me because of a cognitive function too.
 
#29 ·
So when you say "talk with Ti", and "brought up factual correction", you mean correcting his logic a lot?

What I was trying to lead to yesterday was that mere "talking with" a function should not have that affect ("run away with his ears covered") on a person by itself. The person would have to be really immature (very one sided and focused in a very imbalanced way on his ego perspective).

So I would agree with this:


What we usually do with unconscious functional products when we feel someone else is bombarding us with them, is to tune them out. Like I know a lot of people have done with many of my posts, like when breaking all this stuff down. I guess some might describe their reaction as wanting to run away with their ears covered.

But I would think that would be if the Ti products are resonating with some internal "object" that triggers such a reaction.
I've gotten a bit into the theory of "internal objects" more lately, because it connects with Beebe's archetype/complex theory which says the anima, as "the bridge to the Shadow" deals in "object relations" and the Demonic Personality itself has been associated with another theorist's "Bad Object", and from personal reflection, I see it's very accurate. Like tough Te talk might do this for me, and activate the "Opposing Personality, or "Warrior/Amazon".

But the Te has to have a specific point that will resonate with that, and not just any "Te" product.
I also think of how I aimed to support an LGBT activist who was pointing out how certain Bible scriptures are used as "clobber texts" against gays, and I was pointing out, in my Ti fashion from my own study of the contexts (and "parenting" it as an "idea" via Ne), that the passages were not describing modern LGBT people, and the person tweets back "Good on you for taking the time to analyze it. I caaaant". The person is likely an SFP, and I take the emphasis there as conveying a sense of "running away with ears covered". (I was thinking there would be at least a "great point!" or something). But I think it would really help the cause to break it down more and come up with stronger scriptural arguments against conservative Christians (who see them as rejecting scripture purely on "feelings"), and so a reaction like that was a bit immature. (Could be that the person is so busy in the activism work that the stresses of that will make unpreferred functional products less tolerable).

But yeah, if Ti types are picking apart others' logic (especially Te types), especially with what are seen as smaller points ("factoids" if you will), then this will tend to have negative reactions, and this is something we have to look out for.
That's really a bit more than simply "talking with Ti" (which to me, conveys the old "functions as gears" approach, which often leads to misunderstandings about functions, and their "use" or "affect" on people. They're really perspectives that our ego and other complexes draw out of the data of a situation).
 
#11 ·
I wonder what he is perceiving that he's naming "Ti" that he doesn't like? Perhaps the definitions are different for the two of you? I'm not saying you haven't already thought of this, but maybe this is more about just asking what about it is so irritating to him.

I wouldn't think that people have to "deal" with my Ni. They just sort of tolerate it lol. As long as you're not turning on strobe lights or making loud noises or getting ultra sappy and emotional I'm good. lol
 
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#12 ·
Well I called him an ExFP anyway :p

Didn't get an answer on that one yet, but I think it's something deeper, something triggering his paranoia as he said, causing him to avoid functions he's not familiar with.
Why should he wait for the theoretical age of development (as in 40y for inferior function or something?) if that's the age when people DON'T use MBTI...

Anyway he taught me a lot already, maybe it's my turn to return the favor :wink:
 
#13 ·
There's two ways you can handle it.
You can keep the peace and tone down the Ti, because he doesn't like it and find other people who appreciate it more.
Or you can try learning where he's coming from and when actual "troubleshooting" via Ti is necessary.

From what I've experienced with NTJs, they see Ti/Ne or Ti/Seas needlessly complicating things with useless noise.
This becomes more and more corroborated if they have no trouble swatting down your nitpicking.
So maybe learn to hold back a bit, troubleshoot your troubleshooting (lol) and make sure to only bring up things he cannot swat down easily, so he begins to respect your reasoning.
 
#16 ·
I think the hard part is that the INTJ just needs to know what the solution is. They are a bit quicker with conclusions, which can lead them to get impatient when a Ti-dominant wants to run through the process.

So I'm guessing his trigger is when he feels like he already knows the answer and you feel the need to actually follow the logical process.
Maybe it can help to keep the logic to yourself and start the conversation at the end result? I'm guessing that's going to be easier for an INTJ to deal with.
 
#21 ·
@Dissymetry

I didn't realise you disagreed with the Beebe model so vehemently. Everything on that page is based on his model. I'm going to have to think for a few years before responding to anything else you said lol.
 
#22 ·
The ideas can be applied to any other function-stack order I think. For instance why could an ISTPs "child" function not be "Ne" instead of "Ni" so on and so forth for the rest of the functions that would change in some way when you start questioning their orientation. I think the idea of it is cool but the specifics are debatable to say the least.
 
#26 ·
So, I got this INTJ friend I've known now for a few years.
And suddenly he tells me how he'd like to "run away with ears covered" simply because I talk with Ti.
You must be in one of his inner circles since he's said he only wants to "run away with ears covered." If someone I barely know starts using Ti critic on me I'd want to punch them in the face.

Though sometimes I am able to tell when someone is using Ti critic after being impressed, versus using it to annoy/delay/sidetrack etc.

I personally find Ti useless in accomplishing objectives.
 
#27 ·
It's not someone else using "Ti critic" (unless it's another ITJ, and their "critic" or "witch/senex" COMPLEX is particularly activated at that time). Shadows, like the "critic", are perspectives we feel are less relevant (e.g. "I personally find Ti useless in accomplishing objectives."), but we still do encounter the perspectives all the time. (There will still be truths you discover on your own, individually).

Functions can be in a state called "undifferentiated", where they have not been sorted out by a complex yet. The easiest to understand is Se, where everyone can see, hear, touch, etc. but someone who's pointing out something to me isn't "using Se Trickster" on me, and neither am I "using" it just by looking.

Each complex has an agenda, and once a situation calls for that agenda (usually some negative "issue", for the shadow complexes), then it will be activated, and see the situation through the associated function.
The "critic" is about "negation" of the ego. If the ITJ feels negated by someone else's Ti perspective, then, they may project the critic, and then respond accordingly, usually by trying to take down the other's logic. Since their "good parent" (by which they tend to try to teach others) is Te (where "truth" is set by an object and simply to be "accepted" by the subject), then someone coming with their own "subjective" logic may make their own perspective feel negated, and then, the critic may surface, to "stop them dead in their tracks".

But not necessarily. It's possible for both to arrive at the same "truth" subjectively, for one, and "objectively" for the other. Like both will understand the same math or science principles that way, so there will be no conflict. It's also possible to not agree, but the Te type to be mature enough to realize it's just a difference of perspective, and thus not feel so negated by the Ti perspective. (This is really the goal of Shadow work, moreso than the oft-given misnomer "developing the shadow functions").
 
#28 ·
The "critic" is about "negation" of the ego. If the ITJ feels negated by someone else's Ti perspective, then, they may project the critic, and then respond accordingly, usually by trying to take down the other's logic. Since their "good parent" (by which they tend to try to teach others) is Te (where "truth" is set by an object and simply to be "accepted" by the subject), then someone coming with their own "subjective" logic may make their own perspective feel negated, and then, the critic may surface, to "stop them dead in their tracks".

But not necessarily. It's possible for both to arrive at the same "truth" subjectively, for one, and "objectively" for the other. Like both will understand the same math or science principles that way, so there will be no conflict. It's also possible to not agree, but the Te type to be mature enough to realize it's just a difference of perspective, and thus not feel so negated by the Ti perspective. (This is really the goal of Shadow work, moreso than the oft-given misnomer "developing the shadow functions").
Well yes, I brought up some factual correction, and he automatically tried to bring down my logic. Which to me feels like a challenge I'm not willing to give in to, since it's my freaking hero. To him it must feel like his own dignity being on the line, and he's just as stubborn as I am :D
We still "clash" occasionally but I have the impression it makes us both grow now. Last time, it became clear it was indeed just a matter of perspective and well... seeing different viewpoints is what you sometimes need (but they still have to be logically sound).
 
#30 ·
@Eric B

If it's not Ti that the INTJ is wanting to run away from, could it be the Se then? S is concerned with reality, what is factual, what is actual. So often times S types come across as extremely logical from the perspective of what is pragmatic or practical or what is actual. Could it be an Ni/Se issue for the INTJ then?

Really enjoy reading your posts so I have to admit I am milking this conversation a bit, but I almost always learn from what you write.
 
#31 ·
@Eric B

If it's not Ti that the INTJ is wanting to run away from, could it be the Se then? S is concerned with reality, what is factual, what is actual. So often times S types come across as extremely logical from the perspective of what is pragmatic or practical or what is actual. Could it be an Ni/Se issue for the INTJ then?

Really enjoy reading your posts so I have to admit I am milking this conversation a bit, but I almost always learn from what you write.
It could be anything, unpreferred that the ego is not willing to deal with. I had said "a function should not have that affect on a person by itself". But it could still be the Ti if it's triggering some negative "issue" inside of him.
 
#33 · (Edited)
So what can I do or what can he do to use his critic to his advantage?
Seems like it is a context issue, poor coping mechanism and immaturity. Spewing detail(s) with no context, noticeable relevancy or direction can be annoying for anyone.

It comes off as a critique because he perhap(s) cannot understand the point of bringing up details if they serve no immediate purpose. You can perhaps indicate or bring to his awareness where you are attempting to plug in this information of the detail to highlight the usefulness of it, to begin with by first pointing out the problem, so he will reduce the "running away with covered ears" thing and the information is not misplaced in empty space/the unknown.

Even if you were supplying a good/bad critique, his reaction(s) to it are immature and bizarre. Not sure how you deal with that.
 
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