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Questions about Sensation and Intuition

419 views 8 replies 4 participants last post by  brightflashes 
#1 · (Edited)
What kind of research has been done on these in relation to Jungs theory or the MBTI?

There are many different kinds of Sensation. Visual and auditory are what I suppose we would consider to be Se.
Could gustatory, olfactory, somatosensory, cutaneous, osmoreception and proprioception be related to Si due to the subjective nature of them?
Proprioception includes the kinesthetic sense and vestibular sense so I do not know if this would relate more to Se or Si.

What of intuition? How much of this could be related to hypnagogia? This in-between state is something I relate to more than a lot. It almost defines me. I think it it because I am always kind of tired and have issues with allergies which of course exacerbates the tiredness because allergies keep me awake.
Or other things could be related to intuition, what of dissociation?

If a person such as myself dissociates a lot due to some kind of traumatic experiences in earlier life (that they perhaps forget a lot of as explained by hypnagogia) or any other reasons (boredom, anything else really) and also has problems with allergies and always being tired and everything that comes from being in a hypnagogic state then they will surely select N over S even if it is not a true preference, even if it is a forced preference from suffering with certain issues. Could this not be a falsification of type?

I think that simply summing things up as "Sensation" and "Intuition" does not cut it for me. There must be more to it than this. What sensations specifically relate to Si or Se? What psychological states relate to any function in any attitude?

 
edit: In fact if it was this state of tiredness in combination with Phenergan (which makes me a little more tired but does help with allergies, but also at the same time prevents me from ever feeling comfortable enough to sleep so it actually is worse for my health overall I think) that helped me develop an understanding of how introversion and extroversion work on some level and how these attitudes affect the functions. It was observing this tired-imagery that lead to this post and then this post.

These thoughts came to me after in my head I just saw imagery of a person that was an introvert and they were perceiving basically generalised rules of everything, it looked a bit like a matrix or something in my mind I can not explain it very well. The general idea was that the introvert was absorbing things from the outer world into their own matrix and it was this matrix that they saw everything from. A "home base".

The matrix was made up of everything they basically learnt over their life and I saw this as though the:
  • introvert Intuitive was collecting stories/imagery representing archetypal roles
  • introvert Sensation was collecting subjective sensory impressions
  • introvert Thinking was collecting what makes logical sense
  • introvert Feeling was collecting what they liked and did not like

These collections formed their own outlook on the world and they saw everything from their own standpoint. They were collecting the "generals" from the outer world and not focused on the specifics of the actual real situation.

I then knew later on that the extroverted attitude must not prefer this matrix, it must put faith in the outer world, in the actual specifics of the external environment or situation.

I then deduced that:
  • extrovert Sensation saw real world objects and heard real sounds and trusted them
  • extrovert Intuition saw what real world objects could be (I knew it was derived from the Si matrix)
  • extrovert Thinking saw what is working right now in real-time and trusted that
  • extrovert Feeling saw what is valued right now in real-time and trusted that

The dots were super easy to connect then and I could easily see how each attitude ignored the other one (introvert Thinking goes with its own subjective matrix of what makes sense in general instead of looking at what makes sense outside like it sees its own laws trusts that more than the actual real laws that are in effect). I could also easily see how each one repressed its opposite and I could easily see the connections between the two like I wrote about in the second post I linked.
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Jung himself did a lot of research and verification/"proofs" of his own system. The problem is that with the types, he didn't commit it all down to writing in one linear way. Instead, he has sprinkled conclusions he made later about the types in subsequent works to Psychological Types.

Lectures on Jung's Typology and The Question of Psychological Types are both extremely good resources for seeing how Jung's theory evolved. However, in every other book I've read by Jung there have been a wealth of knowledge expanding on his theories of type, his over-arching theory of personality, and what exactly he means by the conscious functions and unconscious functions. Perhaps the most telling work is in The Red Book which was his own personal diary.

I can imagine someone reading what I wrote and then saying "No, Psychoanalysis can't be proven and that's the problem with Analytical Psychology". However, I'm not talking about that. I mean, he proved the collective unconscious exists and offers this proof in several books. He's very specific about how his theory is an empirical theory and does a good job outlining it. Most people, I have found, see his other works and are not as excited about them or feel as though they must read his books only for a few gems here and there that can relate to type. No, this too is untrue. Reading the rest of his books puts all of this stuff into context in a way where one can immediately grasp its understanding.

- - - - - - - - - -

To answer your questions:

1. A lot of research has been done. I would suggest checking scientific journals on personality but would recommend Jung's own work before looking at the scientific journals only because without the context, the material might not mean anything.

2. The different kinds of sensation you mention I believe all fall under "S". Obviously the internal sensation is going to be more accessible to the Si types than external sensation, but the Se type perceiving their vestibular sense, for example, isn't any less Se for perceiving an internal sensation.

Again, the Si draws it inward while the Se projects it onto an object. This works in both directions. Introverts pull the object in, but if the object is already inside, Extraverts will project it out.

For example and a gross oversimplification, Si would be more prone to say "I feel dizzy" where as Se would be more prone to say, "The world is spinning". Again, a very over-simplified example and one that is definitely not the rule. (Perhaps in another thread or in PMs we could also describe Introversion as having a slightly more internal locus of control whereas Extroversion has a slightly more external locus of control.)

3. I spend much of my waking state in a "hypnagogic-like" place. I have biological verification of this, but I don't really care to elaborate in public.

4. Just because one dissociates doesn't mean that's going to be what they use all the time. If one dissociates and it's a pervasive pattern that has lasted at least 5 years, then this is a factor in personality and would put an individual at a far higher probability for being an N type than an S type.

Dissociation as a result of acute trauma that lasts 3-6 weeks, for example, could give back a false type if the individual were to take the test during that period of time. However, if that dissociation actually lasts for 20 years, then that person has developed this defence mechanism, prefers it, and thus is an N type.
 
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#3 ·
Again, the Si draws it inward while the Se projects it onto an object. This works in both directions. Introverts pull the object in, but if the object is already inside, Extraverts will project it out.

For example and a gross oversimplification, Si would be more prone to say "I feel dizzy" where as Se would be more prone to say, "The world is spinning". Again, a very over-simplified example and one that is definitely not the rule. (Perhaps in another thread or in PMs we could also describe Introversion as having a slightly more internal locus of control whereas Extroversion has a slightly more external locus of control.)
I think it's probably the exact opposite. From what I remember, Jung in the description of the SI type specifically mentioned how they're prone to not understand the limits and view the world as an extension of themselves. Introverts are the ones who project, as they need the world to be in agreement with them, else they feel threatened they need to change, which they don't want to do.

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@Dissymetry

Hypnagogia is rather specific to transitioning into sleep so unless there's some relation with the brain waves produced in that phase and intuitives it doesn't seem likely. Maybe you could ask dr Dario Nardi for this (and tell us :p). In my experience with hypnagogia, it tends to produce dream-like irrational connections that are completely absurd while intuitions tend to be true more often than not.
I haven't experienced being in a hypnagogic state unless trying to sleep, so I don't know exactly how it's like, but in the context you are presenting it, I guess it's not impossible that it may create falsification.

I remember having depersonalization episodes due to social anxiety many years ago, but I'm not sure why they'd relate to N over anything else

There are many different kinds of Sensation. Visual and auditory are what I suppose we would consider to be Se.
Could gustatory, olfactory, somatosensory, cutaneous, osmoreception and proprioception be related to Si due to the subjective nature of them?


The subjectivity of those that you mention seems to me like a false dichotomy. I don't think smell and taste are really less objective, what we prefer is and the same can be said for visual and auditory sensations. I see S as valuing the sensory data, not that it's the sensory data itself. Like F is not feelings themselves, and T isn't logic itself, but they are psychological orientations that put value and preference on the corresponding abilities/traits/etc (and as a consequence train the brain to become better at them).

If it makes it a bit clearer, in my experience with SI types they may completely mishear things based on what they are expecting to hear in the first place. It's more about choosing the sensory they want and ignoring the rest, like if two words are similar they will insist on hearing what they wanted to instead of what it was.
 
#4 ·
Just throwing in my 2 cents in regards to hypnagogia.
Generally I type N over S. When I'm experiencing what I would describe as Ni I am quite lucid. I'm generally not sleep deprived. I don't think hypnagogia is required for individuals to type as intuitive. It might be more that individuals who have hypnagogia are more likely to type themselves as intuitive types.

I would guess though, being in a half asleep state you would be experiencing your unconscious mind. Being half asleep your brain is not updating your reality based on what's going on around you, instead your brain is filling in the gaps of your reality. This comes from within your mind (unconscious). I can see how this could be interpreted as intuition.

If such a state of mind is normal (experienced more often than not) I would not consider this a false typing. All sorts of things affect one's personality. Our brains aren't static things that are simply born a certain way, they require feedback from the environment to grow and learn which would help to shape personality.

It's also worth considering that cognitive functions don't describe the entirety of the function of the brain/mind. Honestly sometimes I tend to find other psychological phenomenon better at explaining how my mind works compared to cognitive functions.


I also want to say I liked @brightflashes crude example of Si/Se. At the heart of it, it's where the individual places the sensation as occurring. Within themselves or within the object. This is the conclusion I came to at one point but I could be an oversimplification on my part.
 
#6 ·
I don't think hypnagogia is required for individuals to type as intuitive.
I want to be clear, in case I wasn't that hypnagogia is not a requirement for N as well. Just in case I left that in an ambiguous position. What I was describing about myself was that biologically, my brain prefers alpha and theta waves. I do not experience "dream like" states unless I'm actually going to sleep or waking up or in a deep meditation or - once - when I was hypnotised.

Also, when my brain waves were recorded, I was in a very relaxed state and not actively really doing anything so it makes sense that I'd get more alpha and theta waves anyway so the data might be skewed.

As for the reference to Nardi, I don't know what Nardi would think, but a brain that is more often in the "alpha" brain wave state is considered much more likely to be Introverted than the brain of someone who spends most time in the "beta" brain wave state. This is easily verifiable when looking up brain waives and personality in any sort of online scientific journal database.
 
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