Model D (mk5)

Model D (mk5)

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This is a discussion on Model D (mk5) within the Cognitive Functions forums, part of the Personality Type Forums category; ...

  1. #1
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Model D (mk5)

    Thinking and Intuition are superfluous. They correspond to the prefrontal cortex and working memory, so they are always dependent on Sensing functions. Si+ is about object recognition/patterns and scenarios/mental projections. Se+ is about an object's position in space and similarities/differences between objects. Fe+ and Fi+ are emotional responses to these sensory processes. Si+ and Se+ are detailed and specific, Si- and Se- are general.



    INFP

    Introvert

    Fi+ (Se+) // Si+ (Fe+) ..... strong functions

    Fe- (Si-) // Se- (Fi-) ..... weak functions




    INTJ

    Introvert

    Si+ (Fe+) // Fi+ (Se+) ..... strong functions

    Se- (Fi-) // Fe- (Si-) ..... weak functions




    ENTP

    Extrovert

    Se+ (Fi+) // Fe+ (Si+) ..... strong functions

    Si- (Fe-) // Fi- (Se-) ..... weak functions




    ISFJ

    Introvert

    Fe- (Si-) // Se- (Fi-) ..... strong functions

    Fi+ (Se+) // Si+ (Fe+) ..... weak functions




    Se must be related to the parietal lobe. But INTP has weak and unconscious Se in most models. It doesn't add up.

    https://www.i3mindware.com/5-iq-factors

    Thinking skills

    Gf: Fluid intelligence – reasoning and novel problem solving ability

    Gv: Visual intelligence – the ability to manipulate mental visual images to solve problems


    https://www.hrplab.org/psychometric-iq-definitions/

    Doing tasks involving controlled attention, working memory, executive processes, and fluid reasoning (Gf) have been consistently linked in in the research to electrical signalling activity in the prefrontal and parietal lobes of the brain. These findings have resulted in the influential Parieto-Frontal Integration Theory of intelligence (P-FIT).



    Consider Dario Nardi's brain map. Is SEE / ESFP really an Se dominant type?

    brain SEE.jpg






  2. #2

    A lot to unpack here... I will keep it to a few highlights.

    1: Each brain area does a lot of different things. Brain areas actually don't correspond 1-to-1 with cognitive functions and should not be viewed that way. There are correlations but they aren't as easy to spot as you're implying here.

    2: Most sensory things are actually processed near the back of the brain. A single mental process can activate neurons in many different parts of the brain regardless of where they are located in the skull.

    3: Nardi's models are useful in starting to think about this, but he has chosen certain cut-off points that are more or less random. Brain areas with low activation are still going to be activated a lot, since the brain is extremely complex and everything is connected. The highlights are just areas that have been measured to be activated more more this specific person, not even for the personality type as a whole. There's not much known about individual differences within types for now. Nardi might share more on this topic some day, but not yet.

    4: The brain is more than just the outide (which is the only part which is measured here). There might be areas that are centerpieces for certain cognitive functions that aren't present on the cortex. Maybe the Corpus Callosum is where Ni lives for example. There's no way to know at this point.

    So... I think you ask valid questions but that you're a bit quick in drawing conclusions.

  3. #3
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by Drecon View Post
    A lot to unpack here... I will keep it to a few highlights.
    1: Each brain area does a lot of different things. Brain areas actually don't correspond 1-to-1 with cognitive functions and should not be viewed that way. There are correlations but they aren't as easy to spot as you're implying here.
    Logic, or "Thinking", must be in the (left) prefrontal cortex, right? If ISTP has very active P3 and P4, then Se must be related to the parietal lobe.

    2: Most sensory things are actually processed near the back of the brain. A single mental process can activate neurons in many different parts of the brain regardless of where they are located in the skull.
    What is your point?

    3: Nardi's models are useful in starting to think about this, but he has chosen certain cut-off points that are more or less random. Brain areas with low activation are still going to be activated a lot, since the brain is extremely complex and everything is connected. The highlights are just areas that have been measured to be activated more more this specific person, not even for the personality type as a whole. There's not much known about individual differences within types for now. Nardi might share more on this topic some day, but not yet.
    Why do you think it is for a specific person?


    4: The brain is more than just the outide (which is the only part which is measured here). There might be areas that are centerpieces for certain cognitive functions that aren't present on the cortex. Maybe the Corpus Callosum is where Ni lives for example. There's no way to know at this point.
    I disagree with you. "Ni" is T6 combined with right prefrontal cortex.

    brain LSI.jpg

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  5. #4

    @Tellus

    The brain is a bit more complicated than where the electrodes are placed when doing an EEG brain scan.

    These letters + numbers are not referring to any brain area, but the placement of the electrodes when doing an EEG.

    Because the brain is three dimensional, node places don't always align perfectly with defined brain areas/systems. For example, the entire limbic system would correspond to multiple electrodes and might be more active in those who exhibit a lot of compassion vs those who are more aloof to the human condition. There isn't one electrode placement that is THE PLACE for compassion. Experiences and how the brain processes these experiences is going to vary from person to person.

    Dario Nardi seemed to be the one who popularised this idea that electrode placement corresponds to different areas of the brain. While this is true in a strictly tactile way, it's not exactly true when we're talking about different areas of the brain. For example, each brain develops slightly differently.

    For example, most people's have Wernicke's area on the left side toward the middle of the brain and Broca's area in the inferior frontal gyrus. Why most people will develop Broca's area on the left side of the inferior frontal gyrus (Fp1, F7, F3), sometimes it will develop on the right side (Fp2, F8, F4). Since language is such a huge component when it comes to thinking, speech, etc ... this difference would greatly cause flaws in any study that only looks at where electrodes are placed and not where different areas of the brain are actually located.

    There are more examples, but this is the best one I can think of at this time.

    Either way, even if these electrode placements were correlated to what you describe (which generally they are, but not always, so they cannot be taken as always correct), I'm not certain I understand what you are proposing.
    Last edited by brightflashes; 07-06-2019 at 08:37 AM.
    Drecon thanked this post.

  6. #5
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by brightflashes View Post
    @Tellus
    The brain is a bit more complicated than where the electrodes are placed when doing an EEG brain scan.
    These letters + numbers are not referring to any brain area, but the placement of the electrodes when doing an EEG.
    Yes I know... Brodmann areas represent the actual brain regions.

    Because the brain is three dimensional, node places don't always align perfectly with defined brain areas/systems. For example, the entire limbic system would correspond to multiple electrodes and might be more active in those who exhibit a lot of compassion vs those who are more aloof to the human condition.
    We are only interested in parts of the limbic system, including the neocortex and the cingulate cortex. I think they align fairly well.

    There isn't one electrode placement that is THE PLACE for compassion. Experiences and how the brain processes these experiences is going to vary from person to person.
    I think you are wrong here. All brain regions process specific things. For example, logic is processed in the (left) prefrontal cortex.

    Dario Nardi seemed to be the one who popularised this idea that electrode placement corresponds to different areas of the brain. While this is true in a strictly tactile way, it's not exactly true when we're talking about different areas of the brain. For example, each brain develops slightly differently.

    For example, most people's have Wernicke's area on the left side toward the middle of the brain and Broca's area in the inferior frontal gyrus. Why most people will develop Broca's area on the left side of the inferior frontal gyrus (Fp1, F7, F3), sometimes it will develop on the right side (Fp2, F8, F4).
    Yes, there are differences between people... especially right-handed and left-handed, which Dario has mentioned.

  7. #6

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellus View Post
    We are only interested in parts of the limbic system, including the neocortex and the cingulate cortex. I think they align fairly well.
    lol. Who exactly is "we"?

  8. #7
    INTJ - The Scientists

    extraversion vs. introversion

    right prefrontal cortex: (very) active vs. (fairly) inactive

    theory of mind/"mental state attribution" (Fe) vs. mirror neurons/empathy (Fi)

    the ventral stream (Si) vs. the dorsal stream (Se)

    ------

    This is why we have 16 personality types (2 x 2 x 4).

  9. #8
    INTJ - The Scientists

    left prefrontal cortex: (very) active vs. (fairly) inactive

    -----

    We have
    either 2 subtypes or 32 types.

  10. #9
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Fe deals with "what" questions.

    Fi deals with "how" questions.


    More recently, Christian Keysers at the Social Brain Lab and colleagues have shown that people who are more empathic according to self-report questionnaires have stronger activations both in the mirror system for hand actions and the mirror system for emotions, providing more direct support for the idea that the mirror system is linked to empathy. Some researchers observed that the human mirror system does not passively respond to the observation of actions but is influenced by the mindset of the observer. Researchers observed the link of the mirror neurons during empathetic engagement in patient care.

  11. #10
    INTJ - The Scientists

    subtypes: assertive and humble


    The right side recognizes categories, but rather than placing individuals in categories, it tends to identify ways in which an individual differs from the category, so it is more about nuance.




     
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