Fi and Ni need to be defined better - Page 2

Fi and Ni need to be defined better

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This is a discussion on Fi and Ni need to be defined better within the Cognitive Functions forums, part of the Personality Type Forums category; Originally Posted by Casus Belli But so many ways to explain it for an extraverted intuition user, isn't it ... ...

  1. #11

    Quote Originally Posted by Casus Belli View Post
    But so many ways to explain it for an extraverted intuition user, isn't it ... Because a function never works alone. And here we come to the introverted intuition. Used by an intuitive, it's a fanstasm, a dream, a waking visualization, a complex diagram, a conceptual planning or a musical score. There is a beginning and an end. It's influenced by the outside only by its auxiliary function that collects informations. This second fonction allows to stay on earth, to bring realism and consistency to this vision and reworked it if necessary. This dream being produced only by the deconnect imagination of the subject, while the extraverted intuition never stops contact with the immediate and visible reality. Introverted intuition suffers from a certain locked linearity when the extraverted intuition is multiple: environment, history, people, animals, science, or actuality being a constant source of influence wery welcome. It result that the first takes the form of a tunnel when the result of the second is more aboreful. For the introverted intuition the conclusion est the goal, because the vision must be a reality.


    The NTP writers are much more scattered, arborescent but very prolix, creative and inspired more or less realistic by the reality. The intrigues are short and end suddenly without it being anticipated. The NTJ have long and complex intrigues perfectly connected to each other, but their overall work is shorter. For the STP, introverted intuition leads to a continuous flow of adventure is intrigues more or less connected. With a beginning and an end.
    Those are the visuals I usually think of: a funnel for Ni and a tree or branching river for Ne. Together with Se and Si these are perceiving/learning functions, however Ni is driven to find the end or conclusion and Ne is driven to ask questions, keep open for more info, and explore.
    With neuroscience (I think only Dario Nardi has done any research but it is very compelling to me) then Ni is a flow-state exercise where all parts of the brain work together on a certain wave frequency, for Ni to generate conclusions, sensations need to be minimal (suppression of Se info).

    With Ne, for years Nardi didn't call Ne's normal state as a flow state and instead described it like Christmas tree lights-- all different parts of the brain lighting up at different times at different frequencies quickly for trans-contextual thinking. More recently it seems like he's been seeing this as a type of flow state.
    Eren Jaegerbomb thanked this post.

  2. #12


  3. #13

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    Those are the visuals I usually think of: a funnel for Ni and a tree or branching river for Ne. Together with Se and Si these are perceiving/learning functions, however Ni is driven to find the end or conclusion and Ne is driven to ask questions, keep open for more info, and explore.
    This can not be more true. I worked in the field of investigation. And I noticed the strong difference with my INTP colleague. That said, the result is that INTPs make less mistakes. Deductivity in the investigation world for a (Ni) user can be the introverted intuition connected to the extraverted thinking. Since this function seeks logic in external events.

    It's two ways to achieve the same result. I don't see anything against it. Generally I rely on all the data and then I visualize the possible scenarios one after the other. I arrive at the best result.
    Eren Jaegerbomb and Llyralen thanked this post.

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  5. #14

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidGH View Post
    Thank you for this typical example of extraverted intuition ... What is the link, only you know it.

  6. #15

    Quote Originally Posted by Casus Belli View Post
    Thank you for this typical example of extroverted intuition ... What is the link, only you know it.
    I just googled “eye movement lie”

  7. #16

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidGH View Post
    I just googled “eye movement lie”
    Okay but why here?
    Last edited by Casus Belli; 09-02-2019 at 03:27 PM.

  8. #17

    I don’t think I would listen to Nardi’s research. He’s really not capable of proving anything his method, as he has no real hypothesis capable of proving or disproving. Rather, he’s making observations.

  9. #18

    Quote Originally Posted by Casus Belli View Post
    Okay but why here?
    Eye movement corresponds to operating very different internal modes. Based upon what the other person stated, someone utilizing Ne would have a lot of eye movement, as they switch modes.
    Eren Jaegerbomb thanked this post.

  10. #19

    Quote Originally Posted by Aluminum Frost View Post
    I like the functions, there's no proof that they're "real" but they're a cluster of traits basically and seem to work for the most part. People seem to understand them. The problem is Fi and Ni mostly when it comes to mistypes. Which is probably why INFJs and INFPs are confused so much. The extraverted functions being more external and objective are much easier to grasp and recognize. Ti and Si to a lesser extent but being T and S functions they're still more concrete and grounded. This leads us to Fi and Ni. Not only are they subjective, they're also F and N functions so not grounded, they're more abstract. So what ends up happening I've found is people just start making shit up, or they project themselves onto what the function is and redefine it. I've seen Ni be described as being able to mimic every function, more than once I've heard this from different people, among other outlandish things. Also just elitism about the function in general. As for Fi it's about personal values. So the arguments I see is "Person X isn't a thinker, they just value logic and reason above all else because of their Fi values" these definitions are so subjective and broad that Ni and Fi effectively mean nothing. They could mean whatever you want them to mean.
    It really depends which theory you go by, for example by Jung's, FI belongs with NI/SI since introversion and extraversion are adaptation traits separate of the functions and only one is developed in the conscious personality the same way you have your judging-perceiving pair that suppresses their opposites.

    Myers flipped and switched around the definitions and forced the types to have both, so now the definitions have semi-adapted to Jung's and usually are a mix of both systems, which makes people mistype very often when they go by cognitive functions, as some identify with i.e. Ne and others with Fi so they may both type themselves NFP when some are actually NFJ and so on.

    It's not just Ni and Fi that need to be defined better, it's everything as the terms introversion and extraversion, which are the fundamentals, have inconsistent definitions.

  11. #20

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidGH View Post
    Eye movement corresponds to operating very different internal modes.
    Out of context these observations are worthless. In this case, it looks like the page of a profiler manual...


     
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