Fi and Ni need to be defined better - Page 3

Fi and Ni need to be defined better

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This is a discussion on Fi and Ni need to be defined better within the Cognitive Functions forums, part of the Personality Type Forums category; Originally Posted by Casus Belli Out of context these observations are worthless. In this case, it looks like the page ...

  1. #21

    Quote Originally Posted by Casus Belli View Post
    Out of context these observations are worthless. In this case, it looks like the page of a profiler manual...
    ? It’s a google image I found for reference to your discussion concerning Ne. What Llyralen wrote in her last paragraph corresponds to such. The mind is referencing different internal possible forms of solutions, and the eyes’ movements correspond to each different form. Although I grabbed the first image from google that was of decent quality, the subject matter is well known in neuroscience and you’re able to research it independently, if you want. I simply pointed you in the relevant direction.

  2. #22

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Panda View Post
    It really depends which theory you go by, for example by Jung's, FI belongs with NI/SI since introversion and extraversion are adaptation traits separate of the functions and only one is developed in the conscious personality the same way you have your judging-perceiving pair that suppresses their opposites.

    Myers flipped and switched around the definitions and forced the types to have both, so now the definitions have semi-adapted to Jung's and usually are a mix of both systems, which makes people mistype very often when they go by cognitive functions, as some identify with i.e. Ne and others with Fi so they may both type themselves NFP when some are actually NFJ and so on.

    It's not just Ni and Fi that need to be defined better, it's everything as the terms introversion and extraversion, which are the fundamentals, have inconsistent definitions.
    The original definitions for extrovert and introvert in Jung’s book referenced extrovert and introvert in such a way that they are opposites, but he didn’t really place a tangential line to them for anyone to know what he was specifically referencing.

    In modern usage, outside of typology, extroverts are typically those who are outgoing in the communication sense. However, it’s quite the opposite for those who are very physically engaged with the world.

  3. #23

    Quote Originally Posted by Casus Belli View Post
    This can not be more true. I worked in the field of investigation. And I noticed the strong difference with my INTP colleague. That said, the result is that INTPs make less mistakes. Deductivity in the investigation world for a (Ni) user can be the introverted intuition connected to the extraverted thinking. Since this function seeks logic in external events.

    It's two ways to achieve the same result. I don't see anything against it. Generally I rely on all the data and then I visualize the possible scenarios one after the other. I arrive at the best result.
    That sounds interesting. Why do you say an NP makes less mistakes?
    By the way, I'd say quite a good bit of original social research has actually happened through PerC in my two years on here through the threads made by my ENFP friend @ai.tran.75 This research isn't formal, but has told us a lot about how people experience their cognitive functions. She asked each Kiersey group "How Do You Think?" and further asked questions about memory that have been quite interesting. We found out through this experience (and everything I'd seen by Dario Nardi, who I mentioned, seems to confirm) that Ne has multiple tracks of thinking at once. We did not know this was unusual. Ni doms usually say that their thoughts are not in a language or internal dialogue and some have said it's more like thoughts before the actual thoughts materialize, but they can be acted on before they materialize. When symbols were brought up that seemed semi-close, but not close enough. A few disputed that they actually thought in symbols. What do you think or experience? Also, those threads are open in the NT forum right now, I believe.

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  5. #24
    ESTP

    Quote Originally Posted by Aluminum Frost View Post
    I like the functions, there's no proof that they're "real" but they're a cluster of traits basically and seem to work for the most part. People seem to understand them. The problem is Fi and Ni mostly when it comes to mistypes. Which is probably why INFJs and INFPs are confused so much. The extraverted functions being more external and objective are much easier to grasp and recognize. Ti and Si to a lesser extent but being T and S functions they're still more concrete and grounded. This leads us to Fi and Ni. Not only are they subjective, they're also F and N functions so not grounded, they're more abstract. So what ends up happening I've found is people just start making shit up, or they project themselves onto what the function is and redefine it. I've seen Ni be described as being able to mimic every function, more than once I've heard this from different people, among other outlandish things. Also just elitism about the function in general. As for Fi it's about personal values. So the arguments I see is "Person X isn't a thinker, they just value logic and reason above all else because of their Fi values" these definitions are so subjective and broad that Ni and Fi effectively mean nothing. They could mean whatever you want them to mean.
    Intuition = consequences.

    Ni mulls over consequences. (Damage to their reputation, physical harm, etc.)

    Fi, consequences are an after-thought. What they believe in is more important and they happily accept any consequences arising from their actions.


    So, Ni appears hesitant and Fi doesn't give a shit.

  6. #25

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidGH View Post
    ? It’s a google image I found for reference to your discussion concerning Ne. What Llyralen wrote in her last paragraph corresponds to such. The mind is referencing different internal possible forms of solutions, and the eyes’ movements correspond to each different form. Although I grabbed the first image from google that was of decent quality, the subject matter is well known in neuroscience and you’re able to research it independently, if you want. I simply pointed you in the relevant direction.
    I know the theory thank you ... It's just that your post seems unfinished...

  7. #26

    Quote Originally Posted by Casus Belli View Post
    I know the theory thank you ... It's just that your post seems unfinished...
    That’s why it’s called a conversation.

    That is, at least, though, one extroverted function whose usage is objectively verifiable, as you can measure eye movements.

  8. #27

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecchi View Post
    Intuition = consequences.

    Ni mulls over consequences. (Damage to their reputation, physical harm, etc.)

    Fi, consequences are an after-thought. What they believe in is more important and they happily accept any consequences arising from their actions.


    So, Ni appears hesitant and Fi doesn't give a shit.
    So, basically Fi “doesn’t listen”?

  9. #28

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecchi View Post
    Intuition = consequences.

    Ni mulls over consequences. (Damage to their reputation, physical harm, etc.)

    Fi, consequences are an after-thought. What they believe in is more important and they happily accept any consequences arising from their actions.


    So, Ni appears hesitant and Fi doesn't give a shit.
    Actually seeing the consequences of action are more Ni or Ne. Whether the action is right or wrong, including seeing what will happen is Fi. So, for instance, an INFP will figure out the moral consequences of an action and will have a decided Fi opinion on what action to take given this input.
    "Doesn't give a shit" is a common thing that people (usually non-Fi users) seem to say about Fi, but caring about everything is much more correct about Fi.
    lunaticrabbits thanked this post.

  10. #29
    ESTP

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidGH View Post
    So, basically Fi “doesn’t listen”?
    Both Fi and Ti don't listen unless the other person's feelings or thoughts confirm their own.

    They see themselves as more moral or smart than everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    Actually the consequences of action is what Fi is really good at figuring out. Good or bad. "Doesn't give a shit" is a common thing that people seem to say about Fi, but caring about everything is much more correct about Fi.
    Fi is about beliefs, zero about consequences.

    Consequences is intuition. And You're ENFP.

  11. #30

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    Actually the consequences of action is what Fi is really good at figuring out. Good or bad. "Doesn't give a shit" is a common thing that people seem to say about Fi, but caring about everything is much more correct about Fi.
    Is “caring” something tangible? As a man, if I care about something, I generally do some form of labor to get it in better condition. The alternative appears to be being emotional concerning something.


     
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