Fi and Ni need to be defined better

Fi and Ni need to be defined better

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This is a discussion on Fi and Ni need to be defined better within the Cognitive Functions forums, part of the Personality Type Forums category; I like the functions, there's no proof that they're "real" but they're a cluster of traits basically and seem to ...

  1. #1

    Fi and Ni need to be defined better

    I like the functions, there's no proof that they're "real" but they're a cluster of traits basically and seem to work for the most part. People seem to understand them. The problem is Fi and Ni mostly when it comes to mistypes. Which is probably why INFJs and INFPs are confused so much. The extraverted functions being more external and objective are much easier to grasp and recognize. Ti and Si to a lesser extent but being T and S functions they're still more concrete and grounded. This leads us to Fi and Ni. Not only are they subjective, they're also F and N functions so not grounded, they're more abstract. So what ends up happening I've found is people just start making shit up, or they project themselves onto what the function is and redefine it. I've seen Ni be described as being able to mimic every function, more than once I've heard this from different people, among other outlandish things. Also just elitism about the function in general. As for Fi it's about personal values. So the arguments I see is "Person X isn't a thinker, they just value logic and reason above all else because of their Fi values" these definitions are so subjective and broad that Ni and Fi effectively mean nothing. They could mean whatever you want them to mean.
    Aelthwyn, brightflashes, inmymind and 4 others thanked this post.



  2. #2

    Quote Originally Posted by Aluminum Frost View Post
    I like the functions, there's no proof that they're "real" but they're a cluster of traits basically and seem to work for the most part. People seem to understand them. The problem is Fi and Ni mostly when it comes to mistypes. Which is probably why INFJs and INFPs are confused so much. The extraverted functions being more external and objective are much easier to grasp and recognize. Ti and Si to a lesser extent but being T and S functions they're still more concrete and grounded. This leads us to Fi and Ni. Not only are they subjective, they're also F and N functions so not grounded, they're more abstract. So what ends up happening I've found is people just start making shit up, or they project themselves onto what the function is and redefine it. I've seen Ni be described as being able to mimic every function, more than once I've heard this from different people, among other outlandish things. Also just elitism about the function in general. As for Fi it's about personal values. So the arguments I see is "Person X isn't a thinker, they just value logic and reason above all else because of their Fi values" these definitions are so subjective and broad that Ni and Fi effectively mean nothing. They could mean whatever you want them to mean.
    There are over 170,000 words in the English language. The likelihood that there aren’t appropriate and accurate words to describe the original author’s concepts without the usage of fictitious terms is virtually nonexistent. The issue with such is that those authors are dead and unavailable for the confirmation of clarification of terms. One could simply provide the original descriptions and survey society to determine the most accurate singular term for each concept, but some individuals would disagree on the grounds they do not conceptualize that language is determined by majority unity of usage, intention, and meaning.

    In example, the creation of the fictitious extrovert and introvert, which is now a set of terms whose usage has gained enough grounds to be real terms: “extroverted” is simply “outgoing” or “sociable” or a variety of other words, while “introverted” is simply “withdrawn” or “unsociable” or a variety of other terms.

    Then you have actual psychometric personality systems such as the big five, which have varying degrees of correlation to MBTI terms: Feeling? Closest to Agreeableness. Judging? Closest to Conscientiousness.

    So, if you use these terms in a sentence, without altering them to suit a flight of fancy, is such and such individual Outgoing with Agreeableness? Unsociable with Agreeableness? Agreeable and Conscientious? Maybe not the best sentences in the world, but they do at least use real words.

    I understand your predicament, as it is often the case that being unable to find the specific and right word for something turns into an endless jumbled mess.

  3. #3

    I really like this way of phrasing things, because its like saying to me, what if MBTI was like Socionics, and you cant find yourself in it, but people like to for fun just stick people under certain labels.
    Instead of..
    this is who I am.

    What if I couldnt relate to an MBTI type? Would I care about it so much? Its the fact that its so subjective and freeing that I like about it. Theres a certain freedom to it being undefined.

    but hopefully people can find that same freedom in other places. if thats what theyre looking for.
    Last edited by starberryGhost; 09-01-2019 at 05:16 PM.
    Aluminum Frost thanked this post.

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  5. #4
    Unknown

    All introverted functions are abstract.

  6. #5

    Quote Originally Posted by Daeva View Post
    All introverted functions are abstract.
    I wouldnt say introverted means abstract

  7. #6

    Well, the use of vulgar words is a common trait among ITPs without to be in a strong emotional situation. Which leaves me believing that a weak extraverted feeling is not really worried about the feeling of others. On the other hand, it expresses the primary emotions quite easily, joy, pain in an archaic way. On this point the users are a need of expression turn toward the outside. Since the positioning of this function in the stack makes it either modern or primitive. The lower it is into the stack, the more the altruistic hypersensitivity gives way to puerility.

    In comparison, the introverted feeling is a personal reference based on emotional and non-rational values to the inversion of the strictly utilitarian introverted thinking. The introverted feeling is more contained whatever its position and sticks to codes and values that may seem "precious" or useless. On this point the users are a need of expression turn toward the inside. The lower the extraverted feeling is in the stack, the more the character is primitive. The lower it is into the stack, the more the moral hypersensitivity gives way to rigidity.

    We could stop at introverted feeling is a not expressed feeling. But that is factually false. It expresses himself most often in an impersonal way. This is not fair could be a mantra of this function. But also my honor is fidelity. For example the judges are TJ. Above all, they apply moral values. Beyond individual considerations. You can beg, it will not change anything. It's a timeless decision while extraverted feeling is more focused on the present and adaptable. Like all the extraverted functions. For this reason lawyers are most often NFJ.
    Last edited by Casus Belli; 09-02-2019 at 04:39 PM.
    VoicesOfSpring thanked this post.

  8. #7
    ENTP

    Quote Originally Posted by Aluminum Frost View Post
    As for Fi it's about personal values. So the arguments I see is "Person X isn't a thinker, they just value logic and reason above all else because of their Fi values"
    It is the very main reason why I was being mistyped as an Fi user, INFP and ENFP.

    Some Te users didn't see "Logic" in me, because Ti's logic/values is subjective and might not align with Te's accepted objective logic/values, so they misinterpreted me as Fi dominant/secondary user.

  9. #8

    I can't remember how Jung talks about Ni, but I do feel his description of Fi was supposedly difficult for him and also that people in general try to simplify the descriptions in general... to the point that I constantly hear people without Fi explain it incorrectly.

    Since I experience Fi I feel that it has been one of my goals to explore how other Fi users experience it as well, find consensus and explain it better to other people.

    I understand Ni, I especially feel that the work on neuroscience and MBTI has helped to clarify some things about Ni for me.
    Last edited by Llyralen; 09-02-2019 at 02:25 PM.

  10. #9

    It could be due to parts of each being contrarian to their own selves.

    When Myers-Briggs arranged the functions for the behavioristic types, she did two things:
    1: E/I determines the if the first function is extroverted or introverted
    2: E/I determines if first function is inverted for J/P

    She basically did a double-negative for introverts. The definitions of each function can’t be consistent between extroverts and introverts, without flipping the actual behaviors and preferences of introverts around, and vice versa.

  11. #10

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    I can't remember how Jung talks about Ni, but I do feel his description of Fi was supposedly difficult for him and also that people in general try to simplify the descriptions in general... to the point that I constantly hear people without Fi explain it incorrectly.

    Since I experience Fi I feel that it has been one of my goals to explain it better to other people.
    But so many ways to explain it for an extraverted intuition user, isn't it ... Because a function never works alone. And here we come to the introverted intuition. Used by an intuitive, it's a fanstasm, a dream, a waking visualization, a complex diagram, a conceptual planning or a musical score. There is a beginning and an end. It's influenced by the outside only by its auxiliary function that collects informations. This second fonction allows to stay on earth, to bring realism and consistency to this vision and reworked it if necessary. This dream being produced only by the deconnect imagination of the subject, while the extraverted intuition never stops contact with the immediate and visible reality. Introverted intuition suffers from a certain locked linearity when the extraverted intuition is multiple: environment, history, people, animals, science, or actuality being a constant source of influence wery welcome. It result that the first takes the form of a tunnel when the result of the second is more aboreful. But for the introverted intuition the conclusion est the goal, because the vision must be a reality.


    For example: the NTP writers are much more scattered, arborescent but very prolix, creative and inspired more or less realistic by the reality. The intrigues are short and end suddenly without it being anticipated. The NTJ have long and complex intrigues perfectly connected to each other, their overall work is shorter and factual. For the STP, introverted intuition leads to a continuous flow of adventure is intrigues more or less connected. With a beginning and an end with sometimes, an anticipated continuation.
    Last edited by Casus Belli; 09-02-2019 at 02:41 PM.


     
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