Why don't certain function stacks not exist?

Why don't certain function stacks not exist?

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This is a discussion on Why don't certain function stacks not exist? within the Cognitive Functions forums, part of the Personality Type Forums category; Hey folks, just a quick question - why don't/can't certain function stacks exist? Like Si - Fe - Ni - ...

  1. #1
    ISFP - The Artists

    Why don't certain function stacks not exist?

    Hey folks, just a quick question - why don't/can't certain function stacks exist? Like Si - Fe - Ni - Te?
    StunnedFox, Reluctanine and chanteuse thanked this post.



  2. #2
    INFJ - The Protectors

    That is an alarmingly cute profile pic, good work boss.

    Initially I misread your question; so let me just quickly put this edit in place instead whilst I take a moment to try and offer a possible answer to what you're *actually* asking.

    :)
    Last edited by lawof23; 10-16-2014 at 12:51 PM. Reason: missed your point!

  3. #3

    I think in Socionics they can, but I don't know much about Socionics - maybe someone else who does can weigh in on this.

    As far as MBTI goes, those function stacks don't exist because introverted and extraverted judging and perceiving functions are paired together. So for example, if you have Si, you will always have Ne. If you have Fe, you will also have Ti. I haven't read enough books about the functions to be able to fully articulate this, but from what I understand, they kind of balance each other out. Ni, for example, is far-sighted and abstract, so it is grounded by Se. Fi is nonverbal and internalized, so it's organized and verbalized by Te.
    Pup, chanteuse and lawof23 thanked this post.

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  5. #4

    You need to have a Pi, Pe, Ji and one Je function - only with Dynamic (Te, Fe, Si, Ni) Functions you wouldn´t be able to do anything.

    Also with Ni you also have Se, with Te you have Fi and so on.

    You can´t have conscious Te and Fe because they occupy the same field.

    Je: Communication Pe: Information Gathering
    Pi: Information Processing Ji: Understanding
    uncertain, IncoherentBabbler, Pup and 2 others thanked this post.

  6. #5
    Unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Zero11 View Post
    Je: Communication Pe: Information Gathering
    Pi: Information Processing Ji: Understanding
    Isn't Pi also understanding (the world)? Then Ji is not just "understanding" but more like judging and making sense.
    Zero11 thanked this post.

  7. #6

    Quote Originally Posted by uncertain View Post
    Isn't Pi also understanding (the world)? Then Ji is not just "understanding" but more like judging and making sense.
    Well thats the hard part as Introversion is subjective and therefore a herd of misunderstandings like the J/P in MBTI and Socionics. What I did was simply differing between Perception and Judgment.

    Pi as non-realtime Perception doesn´t quite fit of what you think as the term Perception anymore. So does judgment as in Ji is in realtime but needs to be evaluated before making a decision in its Extraverted form.
    uncertain thanked this post.

  8. #7
    INFJ - The Protectors

    Pup,

    Let's try again.

    Like the mermaid says, in cognitive function theory you have judging and perceiving functions, right? The Nx and Sx functions are perceiving – taking in data and processing it, whether that data is internal Sense data or external iNtuition data (etc). The Fx and Tx functions are judging – organising and arranging data and making decisions based on it, using internal Feeling systems or external Thinking systems (etc).

    Nx and Sx – and then Tx and Fx – are therefore “different ways of doing the same thing”. If you'll permit me the metaphor of Xi and Xe being “directions”, then I guess at least one attempt at an answer to your question is that it would be unhelpful to “perceive internally” using both Ni and Si. That would just be “too much” Xi. When I say “unhelpful”, I guess I mean that your (or my, etc) ego just wouldn't recognise any value from checking Si's output if the “perceive: internal” output has already been “covered” by Nx. You've “perceived internally” once: it would be “crazy” to do it again. Similarly with Tx and Fx: two ways of achieving the same cognitive “objective”. Again, the ego would experience it as “unnecessary” to “feel externally” having already “thought externally” because it would occur to your conscious awareness like “doing the same thing twice”.

    If I wanted to go all Vaas from Far Cry 3 at this point I'd bring up that “the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result”. Let's ignore the factual/legal validity of this phrase and just pretend it's true for a second. You would “feel insane” insofar as you were consciously/ego-syntonically (I'm sorry to use that word, but look it up if you're not sure because it's really the only word I think I can use) performing a judging function, say, twice “in the same direction”. Not only would you be “expecting” to get a different result from judging something twice – you would get a different result. Try this out in your imagination: it would feel like there was “more than one” of you cognising a situation.

    If we “Beebe out” for a moment – that is, take a moment to consider the model when it goes all out and tries to therapeutically identify the “purpose” or “role” of all eight functions within a personality type – then hey ho what do we find but the Ni-Si (or Ne-Se, or Ti-Fi, or Te-Fe) combination playing a role “in the shadows”, ie: in the unconscious/ego-dystonic world of the “bottom 4” functions. So, for example INFJ: where Ni is the Hero (dominant), Si turns out to be the Demon. For ISFP, yo bad self included, I understand Fi is the Hero – and then Ti would in turn be “your” Demon. And because Exxx extroverts are people too, let's try ENFP – where Ne is the Hero, it turns out that Se is the Demon; or ENTJ, where Te is the Hero then Fe is the Demon

    Trying another answer for you, and taking the (one-of-many) “impossible” combination in your o/p as an example: a hypothetical Si-Fe-Ni-Te would have to have Si as the Hero and Ti would be the Demon. Now, it's not exactly that Ti couldn't be a Demon – it's your demon, after all. But Si and Ti just aren't “in conflict” - because Sx and Tx aren't in conflict. Trying to appeal to your artistic/literary side: the 'narrative' of the hypothetical Si-Fe-Ni-Te would involve the hero pitching up on his horse ready to fight the big bad guy only to find the villain is all like “hey bro, what's up?” and instead of having a big climactic fight the two just chill and have a beer together because they have more in common rather than encroaching on each other's territory/role.

    Let's try again, one last time – but just back to “top 4” cognitive function theory. You know about the concept of the “dominant-tertiary loop” (me: Ni-Ti, you: Fi-Ni). It's bad for you because it's “too much Xi”, right? It can become a negative loop where the tertiary function is basically the “yes boss” function (where dominant function is the boss). It's “unbalanced”. Well, the hypothetical Si-Fe-Ni-Te would get it even worse because (s)he would be experiencing “too much Px” as well as “too much Xi”: “too much Pi”. And we all know what eating too much pi feels like, right?

    :)

    Not to overcomplicate things, but as far as I understand Socionics (which is considerably less than the dismal amount I know about MBTI) that system also makes space for all 8 functions for an individual. It's less about slaying demons, but I'll let someone else butcher Socionics rather than continue this massacre of theory any further myself.

    Hope this was, to any degree, at all useful or helpful boss.
    Pup and Reluctanine thanked this post.

  9. #8

    Quote Originally Posted by Pup View Post
    Hey folks, just a quick question - why don't/can't certain function stacks exist? Like Si - Fe - Ni - Te?
    Because theory suggests that the more certain function is differentiated in human psyche, the less conscious its opposite on both dichotomies counterpart becomes. That's why in MBTI the opposite of one's dominant function always comes last or inferior.
    Kynx and Pup thanked this post.

  10. #9
    ISFP - The Artists

    Quote Originally Posted by lawof23 View Post
    Nx and Sx – and then Tx and Fx – are therefore “different ways of doing the same thing”. If you'll permit me the metaphor of Xi and Xe being “directions”, then I guess at least one attempt at an answer to your question is that it would be unhelpful to “perceive internally” using both Ni and Si. That would just be “too much” Xi. When I say “unhelpful”, I guess I mean that your (or my, etc) ego just wouldn't recognise any value from checking Si's output if the “perceive: internal” output has already been “covered” by Nx. You've “perceived internally” once: it would be “crazy” to do it again. Similarly with Tx and Fx: two ways of achieving the same cognitive “objective”. Again, the ego would experience it as “unnecessary” to “feel externally” having already “thought externally” because it would occur to your conscious awareness like “doing the same thing twice”.
    If we “Beebe out” for a moment – that is, take a moment to consider the model when it goes all out and tries to therapeutically identify the “purpose” or “role” of all eight functions within a personality type – then hey ho what do we find but the Ni-Si (or Ne-Se, or Ti-Fi, or Te-Fe) combination playing a role “in the shadows”, ie: in the unconscious/ego-dystonic world of the “bottom 4” functions. So, for example INFJ: where Ni is the Hero (dominant), Si turns out to be the Demon. For ISFP, yo bad self included, I understand Fi is the Hero – and then Ti would in turn be “your” Demon. And because Exxx extroverts are people too, let's try ENFP – where Ne is the Hero, it turns out that Se is the Demon; or ENTJ, where Te is the Hero then Fe is the Demon

    Trying another answer for you, and taking the (one-of-many) “impossible” combination in your o/p as an example: a hypothetical Si-Fe-Ni-Te would have to have Si as the Hero and Ti would be the Demon. Now, it's not exactly that Ti couldn't be a Demon – it's your demon, after all. But Si and Ti just aren't “in conflict” - because Sx and Tx aren't in conflict. Trying to appeal to your artistic/literary side: the 'narrative' of the hypothetical Si-Fe-Ni-Te would involve the hero pitching up on his horse ready to fight the big bad guy only to find the villain is all like “hey bro, what's up?” and instead of having a big climactic fight the two just chill and have a beer together because they have more in common rather than encroaching on each other's territory/role.
    Aha, I see now... hm... it's very interesting! It all makes sense now... :O Thanks everyone for the info!

  11. #10
    INFJ - The Protectors

    (can I just add, by way of illustrating quite how paltry my experience of Se is, that I have only just noticed this thread is called "Why don't certain function stacks not exist?" even though I really definitely felt it was called "Why don't certain function stacks exist?", with the double negative completely passing me by!)
    Pup thanked this post.


     
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