Jungian Cognitive Functions Theory Versus Keirsey Temperament Theory - Page 4

Jungian Cognitive Functions Theory Versus Keirsey Temperament Theory

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This is a discussion on Jungian Cognitive Functions Theory Versus Keirsey Temperament Theory within the Cognitive Functions forums, part of the Personality Type Forums category; Originally Posted by thewillowtree The two can't reflect each other. For example, if we go by the Keirsey Temperament Theory, ...

  1. #31

    Quote Originally Posted by thewillowtree View Post
    The two can't reflect each other.

    For example, if we go by the Keirsey Temperament Theory, there's Artisans(SP), Guardians(SJ), Rationals(NT), Idealists(NF)..if we go by the Jungian function theory, I think the groupings would be: NF, NT, ST, SF...

    In Keirsey's theory, usually all artistic people would have fallen under the Artisan temperament. But I think in JCF, this would be NFs. Now I agree with the assertion with Keirsey that NFs tend to be the "identity seeking personalities" but he also somewhat crudely splits the "identity seeking personalities" from the "artists" that NFs, in his theory, are pursuing the verbal arts like literature but they don't engage in any other arts beyond that because he thought that Artisans fall under the category of the other arts, like entertainment. While I think it's true that under JCF, my grouping of SFs (as oppose to SPs) would have pursued the entertainment arts,I still think this is the main province of the NFs. It is just that, I think, there are just much more SFs than NFs and so some SFs somehow end up in the arts to express their "creative freedom".I think they are more naturally inclined to "serve guests" or "please guests" with things like hospitality management and the likes- they're naturally suited to serving/entertaining guests such as in hotels, restaurants and things like that, being helpful and pleasing to people.

    I agree with Keirsey when he said that NFs or "Idealists", as he put it, could get stuck trying to "find themselves" and that the only way out is to "stop looking for it"(he mentioned this in the Please Understand Me II book).However in JCF theory, I see it more as, unhealthy NFs getting stuck trying to "find themselves"(I think this is what Keirsey meant as well) and when they do stop "finding themselves", that is when they come face to face with the fact in the real world, you have to sacrifice some authenticity- that is when they actually found themselves (when they have to stop looking for themselves in order to find themselves), and usually this is when the NF engages in any of the arts like acting, singing, etc. and ACTUALLY, conform to the rules of the society, toning down their idealism...so in a sense when they become healthy and productive (and having found themselves), that is when they adjust to the "art of competition" of society, and become a bit of manipulators of the people around them to get what they want or to become successful.

    so what is your opinion on the keirsey temperament theory and how they correlate to the Jungian cognitive function theory? also, how would you group the types under the Jungian cognitive function theory? You notice that the biggest discrepancy is the interpretation of the NF personality type. This is simply the "artistic" type. in Keirsey's theory, it is the "idealist" type who is into literature & humanities but is never good in any of the arts outside of that, usually. According to him, they are more suited to personnel management, psychology and yeah, literature.
    I'm an "NF" or Idealist. The interesting thing is when I read a blog of another "NF" I was like "WOW, we are so idealistic!" We dream of this world where people don't disappoint us, and give it their all etc. I'm INFJ, he is ENFP ... but we think sooo similarly.

    Now as far as verbal arts versus entertainment ... As "NF" I love to write and give speeches, but I also love photography, design and singing. An expert told me that as an INFJ, I am low on creativity, but high on unstructuredness... which I agree with. I am not often inspired to spend time on my photography or design. But I do find time to write everyday.

    A good friend of mine is "SP" the Artisan. She taught art classes and often made gifts for me that were very artistic and unique. However, one day, she attempted to "gift" me a pencil shaving. I rejected it. She saw art in the way that the pencil shaving was perfectly curly and long. I still rejected it after her explanation. She taped it on her desk so she could be inspired by it everyday. Haha. Although I painted a really nice painting for her once that she framed, the dedication it took for me to finish it in time for me to send it felt like I was studying for a test. It was less enjoyable and more like hard work. I guess patience is what she has that I don't have.

  2. #32

    @reckful when people do the official MBTI with some real assessment afterwards from MBTI practitioners to get to their "best-fit type", does it focus on the MBTI dichotomies?

  3. #33

    Quote Originally Posted by thewillowtree View Post
    @reckful when people do the official MBTI with some real assessment afterwards from MBTI practitioners to get to their "best-fit type", does it focus on the MBTI dichotomies?
    I assume that it varies from practitioner to practitioner, and I also suspect it's more common to hear quite a bit more about the dichotomies than the functions, but I'm going to attempt to summon certified practitioner @PaladinX , in case he can shed any more light on that issue.
    PaladinX thanked this post.

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  5. #34
    INFJ - The Protectors

    Artisans are sensual artists; their art is more aimed at stimulating the senses.

    Idealists are creative artists; their art is more aimed at stimulating the imagination.

    Both temperaments are composers in their own right.

    On an interesting side-note, when describing the Idealists, Keirsey commented on how frequently they acquire tactical abilities. They often become virtuosos at their various hobbies such as cooking, painting, sports, etc. My own observations confirm this.
    dragonhead66 thanked this post.

  6. #35
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by thewillowtree View Post
    @reckful when people do the official MBTI with some real assessment afterwards from MBTI practitioners to get to their "best-fit type", does it focus on the MBTI dichotomies?
    It starts with the dichotomies, then focuses on the type descriptions in the Introduction to Type booklet for determining best fit type. While the general focus is more on the dichotomies, the functions are built into the type descriptions in plain language.
    dragonhead66 thanked this post.

  7. #36

    Thanks. @reckful @PaladinX can you guys please link me to an INTJ myers briggs official description?

    I believe reckful has links to the INFJ and ENFJ myers briggs official descriptions (as I've read in his other posts in other threads), do you have one for the INTJ? I just need it, thanks.


    edit: not talking about the short description found in the MBTI official website.
    PaladinX thanked this post.

  8. #37

    Quote Originally Posted by thewillowtree View Post
    Thanks. @reckful @PaladinX can you guys please link me to an INTJ myers briggs official description?

    I believe reckful has links to the INFJ and ENFJ myers briggs official descriptions (as I've read in his other posts in other threads), do you have one for the INTJ? I just need it, thanks.


    edit: not talking about the short description found in the MBTI official website.
    In the spoiler are profile roundups for all 16 types, including a couple "official" ones for each type.

     
    INTJ Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    INTP Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    INFJ Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    INFP Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ENFJ Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ENFP Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ENTJ Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ENTP Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ISTJ Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ISTP Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ISFJ Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ISFP Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ESFJ Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ESFP Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ESTJ Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers

    ESTP Profiles
    MBTI Manual (2nd Ed.)
    MBTI Manual (3rd Ed.)
    Keirsey (Please Understand Me)
    Kroeger & Thuesen (Type Talk)
    Hirsh & Kummerow (Lifetypes [abridged])
    Berens & Nardi
    personalitypage: Portrait
    personalitypage: Personal Growth
    personalitypage: Relationships
    personalitypage: Careers
    dragonhead66 and Another Lost Cause thanked this post.

  9. #38

    Quote Originally Posted by TimeWaster View Post
    On an interesting side-note, when describing the Idealists, Keirsey commented on how frequently they acquire tactical abilities. They often become virtuosos at their various hobbies such as cooking, painting, sports, etc. My own observations confirm this.
    Not really.

    He says they are often "enthusiastic amateurs" when it comes to the arts or that "some of them try their hand at the fine arts, seeing it as a romantic thing to do, but without much patience" .. he then went on at some point and said, "as adults, they can even show a good deal of talent when it comes to their short suit, tactics and try their hand with things like sculpting, painting, etc." or something to that effect.

    sooooo Keirsey just acknowledges them as "enthusiastic amateurs" with some "arts as their hobbies".

  10. #39
    ISFP - The Artists

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhead66 View Post
    Not really.

    He says they are often "enthusiastic amateurs" when it comes to the arts or that "some of them try their hand at the fine arts, seeing it as a romantic thing to do, but without much patience" .. he then went on at some point and said, "as adults, they can even show a good deal of talent when it comes to their short suit, tactics and try their hand with things like sculpting, painting, etc." or something to that effect.

    sooooo Keirsey just acknowledges them as "enthusiastic amateurs" with some "arts as their hobbies".
    I have two daughters who are NFJs. Both are very good artists, with the older one (INFJ) having a particularly good "vision" or style that she developed quite young. She even went to college to study graphic arts. However, now that she's finishing, she is coming to realize that it's not very rewarding to her. Her real strong suite is words, and dealing with people. She's considering getting a masters either in counseling or in psychology or something. The younger one is an ENFJ, and when she graduated from high school, was considering art or something, or music (beautiful pianist), but she got a short-term job working at a preschool, and absolutely loves it, and is now going to get a degree. She prefers early childhood education, but definitely teaching younger kids. She also writes a lot, and wants to be a published author, but she thinks her real calling is teaching. (I should mention that they are both excellent writers, both having written things as young girls that made people cry they were so evocative)

    Ironically, the INFJ is called the Counselor according to Keirsey, and the ENFJ is the Teacher. I say "ironically", because, while both daughters are quite adept at MBTI, they don't know Keirsey that well, and are not familiar with these terms for their types, but both seem to be following their namesakes.


    Personally, as time goes on, I find that Keirsey to be more accurate, consistent and cohesive than MBTI, which seems to be a hodge-podge of Jungian psychology, functions, dichotomies, and of late, the Big-Five theory via the dichotomies.

    I don't necessarily see the two as incompatible, but they are different approaches, focusing on different things. Of late, I've begun to find myself more comfortable with Keirsey's terminology vs. the so-called Jungian "cognitive functions" or MBTI dichotomies. Part of it is that there are multiple ways to view the functions (psychological functions, Jung called them). For example, depending on who is talking, they can be either static or dynamic. Also, they can be either something you "use" or they are natural orientations. And people mix up all four, sometimes in the same sentence. There may be four functions--or eight. We may access all eight--or is it four--functions, or we may only be conscious of only two, or one. Introversion vs. extraversion may be merely sliding scales on a dichotomy, or they may dramatically change who one is (INTJ vs ENTJ, for instance). Either the four dichotomies matter, or they don't really matter at all, and only the functions matter--and their orientation. It's just a mess that makes it hard to communicate and easy to be misunderstood.

    I have now read PT by Jung, all 11 chapters, at least a couple times. I've read Van der Hoop, and "Is that Really Me" by Quenk. I've also read extensively on Socionics (in multiple languages). I've read Keirsey's PUMII several times now. I think I am quite sure of what is going on, and I can say that, without a doubt, Keirsey's is the most rational, consistent and coherent and cohesive of the bunch. People say he misunderstood Jung and Myers, and I've thought so in the past. But I now think that the truth is, he understood them better than most people today (he was quite involved with Myers back in the 50s. So he had a more insider's perspective than any of us today, who only know the finished system). There's a lot more to his temperament theory than the four temperaments and sixteen types, and his rather biased descriptions (because he was an NT rational, and happily married to an NF idealist, his perspective of the introspective temperaments is much more complete and three-dimensional, while his portrayal of SPs and SJs is two dimensional. He gets the breadth and height, but lacks the depth of these temperaments in his descriptions). The system fits and it works, for the most part (just ignore his advice on "mating", IMO). But the two axes, and the matrix of traits, oh, and his point on temperament and character -- seriously, it's good stuff.

    I think he refined Myers' work quite thoroughly, and brought in new dimensions and usefulness (the four temperaments is a good example) that MBTI® lacks. It's a shame it's even more proprietary than MBTI®. Most people who criticise Keirsey haven't actually read his book, only his web-based stuff. People really ought to just buy and read the book--multiple times.
    dragonhead66 and TimeWaster thanked this post.

  11. #40
    INFJ - The Protectors

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonhead66 View Post
    he then went on at some point and said, "as adults, they can even show a good deal of talent when it comes to their short suit, tactics and try their hand with things like sculpting, painting, etc." or something to that effect.
    That's what I was referring to.


     
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