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T vs. F

78K views 121 replies 64 participants last post by  Stevester 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
I think most cognitive function descriptions are vague and too abstract. I have been doing some research on the differences between thinking and feeling functions, and I came across this interesting article from http://www.timeenoughforlove.org/function.htm I am pasting fragments that I thought were really insightful, you can read the entire articule in the link



I stress that the “Feeling” function is generally poorly understood (as is iNtuition). This function is used for judging/reasoning. It is not the same as “emotions”. Instead, it interprets and assigns qualities or values of perceptions on a subjective basis. For example, if you are near an electrical power generation device that emits a large electromagnetic field and you subjectively experienced (feel) a “tingling” in your stomach, the skin and hair on your arms tingles, a light headedness in your brain and you attempted to interpret these sensations and convey them to someone is this “irrational”? Is it an “emotion”? Of course not, it’s simply difficult to describe to others using objective language. This function is used to discern variances in perceptions and to change your point of view. This function is appropriate for use in the area of ethics, musical and artistic expression as well as fictional literature. Here is Katherine Benziger's clarification on the feeling function,
The Physiology of Jung’s Four Functions & Their Organization
By Katherine Benziger, Ph.D., © March 1998; September 1999
"The difference between the Feeling Function and Emotions can be understood more clearly. The Feeling Function is a cortical capacity to recognize the presence or absence of harmony – between colors, tones, or human beings. By contrast, emotions are a limbic capacity to experience delight, anger, fear, grief."
For an explanation of the source of our most aggressive emotions (instinctive behaviors) you may wish to consider Dr. Paul MacLeans Triune Brain Theory. I elaborate more on this theory here.

“His Triune Brain Theory, based on an evolutionary model of the brain, proposes the idea that the human brain is really three brains in one. The R-Complex is similar to the brain of reptiles, in that it controls basic, instinctive survival thinking and behavior. The limbic system, which is similar to that of lower mammals, seems to be the source of emotions, some aspects of personal identity, and some critically important memory functions. The third and outer formation of the brain, called the neocortex, like the brain of higher mammals, is devoted to higher order thinking skills, reason, linguistic expression, and verbal memory.”

Discussion of Topic


Below is a portion of an exchange on the judging functions between myself and an individual who identifies themselves as a 'young INTP'.
"Hello Glen, I am a young INTP, and I found your site very useful with regards to self-development. ...For the most part, I have been trying to develop a theory of the differences of internal thought, and how (and which) ideas manifest themselves to different people."
- , Thu, 31 Jul 2003
For your theory may I suggest creating a model of the brain, distinguishing and associating thoughts and behaviors with the different regions of the brain. For the model I recommend incorporating not only Benziger, Jung and the Meyer-Briggs work but also the Triune Brain theory from Paul D. MacLean, and Abraham Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. I find Maslow’s hierarchy fits perfectly with MacLean’s model. I cite various sources on my KnowYourself page. I think those references will give you a workable ‘big picture’ from there you could isolate and associate individual physiological structures and their functions, e.g. thalamus, Hippocampus, etc.
"I'm also interested in re-defining the functions. I do not think that Feeling is necessarily related to people, but rather it is useful for reading peoples' tone of voice, subtle facial expression, etc."

I certainly agree with you when you say, “the feeling function is not necessarily associated with people.” It is on it’s own a rational judging function which evaluates (organizes/qualifies/quantifies, etc.) perceptual data just as the thinking function does but using different rules and criteria. Because of the confusion inherent in the terms Thinking and Feeling, (after all, all four functions are parts of “thinking”) and Feeling is obviously too often confused with emotion, I prefer the terms objective and subjective reasoning. While even those terms could be seen as misleading, I think they’re an improvement.
"It has nothing at all to do with being nice to them, or knowing how to help them. I'm not very far yet, so I could change my ideas around again."
-, Thu, 31 Jul 2003
Well that depends on what you mean by “knowing how to help them”. You have to remember that humans are not purely rational logical constructs, we are also animals (limbic system and r-complex). If we were based solely on logic we would not be human and what it means to be human. We would not have the perspective or drive to discover our purpose that we do. Your comment reminds me of an example I use to distinguish T& F. This scenario happens all the time so it’s easy to find examples. Suppose you have a couple, one with dominant T and one with dominant F. The dominant F comes home stressed and upset after a difficult day at work. The T spouse sees the F slam their keys down and asks what’s wrong? The F proceeds to emotionally declare how horrible their boss is and the argument they got into. The T asks for details of the disagreement and then proceeds to calmly explain what the F did wrong that brought about their bosses involvement. The F is now shocked and really upset and asks T, “why are you siding with my boss?” F goes to the bedroom and slams the door. The T is confused and does not understand why the F got so upset when they were so close to solving the problem that caused the bosses involvement. Identifying this problem is obviously necessary so that the same or a similar problem can be avoided in the future. Of course the T is correct but they applied this strategy at a time when the F was in an entirely different state of mind. The F was in an agitated and emotional state. The limbic system was most likely fairly active, stress hormones were probably elevated, and it’s possible likely the individual knew they had made a mistake and were already internalizing the knowledge. The individual was clearly not in a state where they wanted to be told they screwed up. What they wanted/needed was reassurance and comfort not criticism, however constructive. Everyone needs external confirmation of their worth, some need more than others, and people need it most when they feel the most threatened. The T failed to fully comprehend the emotional state of F. There were of course signs the T may have seen but they applied little or no value to them. Another F dominant would have applied much higher value to these signals and because of their familiarity with the emotional state would have been able to empathize. T was cold and analytical when they should have been comforting, reassuring and supportive. Later when F was in a calmer, more rational state of mind, knowing they are indeed valuable and valued by others, would it be appropriate to discuss the objective issues.

Both objective and subjective reasoning can be used in any arena from human interaction to cosmology. However, selective application of each, to problems best suited to the rules and criteria of each will result in the greatest efficiency and clarity. To try to simply describe differences between T and F, I often describe T as ‘thinking in probabilities’ and F as ‘thinking in degrees’. For an example of how they can both be used but one is more appropriate than the other I suggest describing your love for someone in terms of probabilities. Even the question seems absurd, as the answer would likely be either 0 or 100%. Instead if you think in terms of ‘degrees’ this seems to make perfect sense and you can likely recall poems which strive to describe this condition with more appropriate terminology, e.g.
Sonnets from the Portuguese: 43
How do I love thee? Let me count the ways.
I love thee to the depth and breadth and height
My soul can reach, when feeling out of sight
For the ends of Being and ideal Grace.
I love thee to the level of every day's
Most quiet need, by sun and candlelight.
I love thee freely, as men strive for Right;
I love thee purely, as they turn from Praise.
I love thee with the passion put to use
In my old griefs, and with my childhood's faith.
I love thee with a love I seemed to lose
With my lost saints, -- I love thee with the breath,
Smiles, tears, of all my life! -- and, if God choose,
I shall but love thee better after death.
- Elizabeth Barrett Browning
"I'm also interested in re-defining the functions. I do not think that Feeling is necessarily related to people, but rather it is useful for reading peoples' tone of voice, subtle facial expression, etc. It has nothing at all to do with being nice to them, or knowing how to help them. I'm not very far yet, so I could change my ideas around again."
-
To further elaborate on why the Feeling function is often confused with emotion I think it’s important to emphasize my prior comment about why in human interaction someone with dominant F would unconsciously assign more value to perceptual stimuli than someone with dominant T. I haven’t researched it but I think it’s likely the posterior quadrants (cortical convexity or sensory lobes) of the neo-cortex are more physically integrated with the structures of the limbic system then are the frontal lobes. I assume this because of my generalized view of brain evolution and what little I know of the differences between various species. Very simply, large frontal lobes are extremely rare but all mammals and most other species have the sensory lobes (as well as limbic structures and r-complex). And obviously the relative cortical efficiency plays a large role. So with these assumptions, it should not be difficult to see why someone with dominant (100% most efficient) F would place more value on identifying and associating perceptual evidence with particular emotional states. The T dominant may recognize some of these signals but they apply little value to them personally (subjectively). Even if a T dominant has a career where they study these states, they often apply objective values (scores) to the evidence and more rarely associate them subjectively. Additionally, in emotionally charged situations a T dominant will find it easier to disassociate (detach) the signals then someone with F dominance. It’s completely natural even automatic for an F dominant to unconsciously empathize with another’s emotional state. Because of this unconscious proclivity the F dominant must make a conscious effort to objectify the facts and issues involved if they wish to disassociate themselves.

The Triune Brain theory is valuable in helping one distinguish between the products of the neo-cortex and those of the older brain structures. Prior to my enlightenment I hadn’t considered the theory itself but I did effectively reach the same conclusions by examining some of my own emotional (instinctual) response to several situations. I can recall two specific situations distinctly. One was when I posted several of my own personal observations on the INTJ open club and several of the observations were critically attacked. I had an instinctive response (a feeling) that I was personally being attacked. Since there was no reason I had to respond to the challenges right away I decided I would wait and consider the points being addressed. I thought (correctly) that by distancing myself from my initial reaction I could examine his points more objectively.

Because I had a reasonably good understanding of the differences and qualities of INTJs and INTPs I realized that what the INTJ was doing was not attacking me but instead attacking what he saw as logical errors in my statements. He was targeting errors in reason and not trying to hurt me. I used this understanding to create a distinction between the ideas (my thoughts) I had proposed with who I was as a person. I then saw what he was compelled to do as an INTJ was a distinct skill I could use to help me understand my views from his perspective. Something similar might be asking someone to proofread something you wrote. You might not notice your writing is difficult to understand because you failed to explain something you unconsciously thought was obvious.

In some of the points he was making I could see the differences in our perspectives were based more on semantics and differences in base assumptions. INTPs have a tendency to make claims that appear to be unsupported by the circumstances because we often base them on conclusions we had reached previously. However, because these unstated assumptions are not apparent to the other party subsequent claims appear unfounded. An INTP must remain cognizant of these differences when communicating with other types. (Of course other types do this as well but the claims INTPs make are often rather complex and controversial.)

The other situation involved a bout with infatuation (a.k.a. falling in love). Because I recognized my behavior was completely irrational I looked at it as a form of ‘drug poisoning’. I did a little reading and discovered the isolated chemical responsible is phenylethylamine or PEA. After objectifying the condition I was able to overcome it’s affects which is fortunate as the feelings were not mutual. This experience gave me the insight necessary to understand how ‘nature’ regulates behavior in animals that do not have such a well-developed neo-cortex. I realized what we objectively describe as ‘instinctual behavior’ in other animals we subjective understand as ‘emotions’ when we experience it. Which means of course that animals have feelings.

So apparently, according to the author of the article, feeling is not about emotion, but about judging the world subjectively. How do you feelers relate to this? How do you experience your feeling functions? Can someone be a feeler and be mean because his subjectivity directs them towards cruelty?
 
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#60 ·
@LoneWolfRoaming
And then you have introverted and extraverted functions of feeling and thinking: Fi vs Fe, Ti vs Te...and most confusing of all, Fi vs Ti.
Being borderline is fine as you very diplomatically explained, but it'd be more fun to be able to identify with one of them rather than just saying I'm an INxP, not that I'm in any rush.

If I had to choose, I'd pick Thinking.

Ever heard people say, "I have a crush on this guy...and I NEED to tell him! I don't know how he'll take it but I just have to let this out!"? I don't understand this desire at all.
Following your description of a Thinker's tendency to "acknowledge their emotions and then dismiss them or hide them" based on some reasoning, yes, I'm definitely a Thinker.
 
#61 ·
@Muser

Yeah being boarderline one is quite balanced in everything that they do, I don't think they do anything extremely.

I'd say that you probably be a thinking, because if you rely on a thinkers traits more and think it's natural for one to like one, then you probably are.
Have you taken the test?
For you relate more to T than F, you may still be boardline but you lean more to the T's.

Yeah people that have those sort of trait's are normally F's.
 
#63 ·
Feeling folks are compassionate, considerate, in touch with human nature, the flow of energies between individuals. They feel their way through life which makes them generally favoured for their warmth & natural charm, they have a certain depth about them that goes beyond thoughts. They read people, they feel connected, they connect they live people, they are empathetic & benevolent.

now

Thinking folks are a little more quirky, they are rational, logical, in touch with the human mind. They undertand streams of though, they break things down. They weigh things up, & value justice. Making them more proficient, their charm lies in their beautiful mind, the way they sum things up the way they dance through life in tune with their mind.
They analyze people, they observe connections, they understand people.

Now don't get me wrong Thinkers aint cold hearted bitches, infact in some situations they have the upper hand in benevolence, since they see no logic in hurting & inflicting harm on others, whilst the feeler might act irrationally & shit would get real nasty & hurtful. They are no better than each other & most people aren't completely T or F, it's rare that you'd find a person who is a 100% of either, it just shows which way you lean towards.
 
#64 ·
Is this thread about which is better or the differences?

I think neither is better than the other, we both have strengths and weaknesses.

I don't know enough about Feelers to give a good detailed description of them to compare to Thinkers.
*besides the stereotypical blah blah blah.*

I'll admit sometimes Feelers stress me out but I'm glad the ones I know are in my life. They helped me learn how to not come off to others as a cold hearted biotch. :p
 
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#65 ·
The Triune Brain theory is valuable in helping one distinguish between the products of the neo-cortex and those of the older brain structures. Prior to my enlightenment I hadn’t considered the theory itself but I did effectively reach the same conclusions by examining some of my own emotional (instinctual) response to several situations. I can recall two specific situations distinctly. One was when I posted several of my own personal observations on the INTJ open club and several of the observations were critically attacked. I had an instinctive response (a feeling) that I was personally being attacked. Since there was no reason I had to respond to the challenges right away I decided I would wait and consider the points being addressed. I thought (correctly) that by distancing myself from my initial reaction I could examine his points more objectively.

Because I had a reasonably good understanding of the differences and qualities of INTJs and INTPs I realized that what the INTJ was doing was not attacking me but instead attacking what he saw as logical errors in my statements. He was targeting errors in reason and not trying to hurt me. I used this understanding to create a distinction between the ideas (my thoughts) I had proposed with who I was as a person. I then saw what he was compelled to do as an INTJ was a distinct skill I could use to help me understand my views from his perspective. Something similar might be asking someone to proofread something you wrote. You might not notice your writing is difficult to understand because you failed to explain something you unconsciously thought was obvious.
INTJ criticizes reasoning errors in logic, so true. Don't take anything personal when being pointed out with logical mistakes by INTJ lol. I have no idea INTJ is with such a "distinct skill" to actually help people to understand.

Come on, Ni with Te, that's a natural result of pointing out logical errors instinctly.:proud:
 
#67 ·
Allegedly, dominant feeling types get their thinkings hurt, but I honestly have NO idea what that means? o_O If anyone can explain this (@LiquidLight in particular), that would be great.
 
#68 ·
Is it just me, or have I absolutely never noticed any real difference in use of "logic" between MBTI's "Fs" and "Ts" IRL? I mean, MBTI makes this out to be the HUGE, APOCALYPTIC difference between "feelers" and "thinkers," and frankly, I've never ever noticed it (I mean, I do know some inferior Te types who have some rather weird or overly blocky/concrete ways of connecting their ideas, but it doesn't really taint their logic any). In fact, I know plenty of so-called thinkers IRL who make their decisions off of their feelings - in fact, who the hell doesn't? You would have to be a wrecked lobotomy patient not to be able to do this, let alone, be aware that you're doing this. And also, honestly, there really does come a time in life where thinking is always paramount to feeling - I'm not prejudiced (only against MBTI's take on the functions, really, LOL), I just think it's too undeniable - you don't take action through feeling (feeling is a motive, not a defined product of anything really), you take it through thinking - feelings are going on in the background - actions are intelligible, not unintelligible, and feelings are often unintelligible over a long period of time until you rationalize them. I'm pretty sure Jung didn't put each function on this equal hierarchical plane, as if they all operate the same way but in different realms - in fact, his "functions" were merely heuristic labels for phenomena he observed in patients. I don't think "thinking" can ever as easily be repressed as feeling, no matter what the type. That would be too dangerous an existence (although surely, there are those exaggerated personalities out there who act on impulse and have gotten themselves into issues that way). I know what real "feelers" are like, and believe me, they do not look like the MBTI types - their type, like all types, is a matter of influence of the ego, not an entire personality.
 
#69 ·
Is it just me, or does is seem like there's an element of being comfortable with speaking your mind that goes into thinking?
 
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#70 ·
Hi there,

I thought you migth like an objective INTJ point of view, just kidding. This thread helped me actualy understand a lot, or in better words, it gave me another perspective. Wich in my eyes is always a good thing.


But before I start trying undermine your logic, I have to state that the title of the trhead is quite deceptive in my eyes. I actualy was expecting a flame war between T's and F's about how they are better (which might be entertaining (for me that is)).


To try to simply describe differences between T and F, I often describe T as ‘thinking in probabilities’ and F as ‘thinking in degrees’. For an example of how they can both be used but one is more appropriate than the other I suggest describing your love for someone in terms of probabilities. Even the question seems absurd, as the answer would likely be either 0 or 100%. Instead if you think in terms of ‘degrees’
Quoted above is the first thing I have a hard time of understanding. How can one determine the 'degrees' one feels without considering some form of logical reasoning. For example one has to understand about what one is thinking. Or did I misinterpit this and does the F function contains some base logic.


The problem with trying to find an implementation in case of these abstract concepts is that the concepts infleunce each other. Ok that sounded realy vauge. I am trying to say if you are for example an INTJ your primary function is Ni and your secondary is Te. Ni is influenced by Te and Te is influenced by Ni. Ok it is still possible to find an implementation for this. But if you take in acount that Te is also infleunced by INTJ's tetriary function Fi, the functions on their own just don't make sense.
Ok maybe I am entering the speculation area here so I'll just give the site where I found this information on. Ironicly the actualy are looking at the functions seperatly on the site, but before they do they state that it should not be done :p
I actualy can't post links so: personalitypathways.com/16-personality-types.html


When I first realized people made decisions based upon their feelings I could not believe it. This was 2 days ago. In my eyes its sounds like a very stupid thing to do in most cases. Then again decision making based upon ethical believes does not sound stupid at all, I actualy admire that kind of thinking.


I find it hard to understand the feeling proces since I realy do not have any use for it, morals would only limit my posible action paths. I actualy learned the MBTI theories so that I can broaden my view of the world and other people. Of course it may make me a more skilled manipulator but that is just a handy side effect.


Is it just me ... is a matter of influence of the ego, not an entire personality.
Did you even read the post that started this thread? You should since it give's a fairly good explanation of the feeling proces. It makes it at least sound less useless.


My understanding of the MBTI may be flawed since I am only studieing the underlying mechenics since a day or two (I have also go to school and learn how to program). So if I did excplained certain things incorectly please comment on that.
Also don't mind the spelling, i'm not native english and a big dislectian. Also language rules change overtime so I did not care to learn them.
 
#71 ·
Ya know, I'm not truly very convinced that the feeling function has anything to do with sensitivity and all that nonsense that it's made out to. I think it's largely just about evaluative judgements and how one acts from these in terms of rationalizing their ego. Judgments that are a direct expression of rationales from personal experience rather than, like with thinking, rationales from managing one's experiences.
 
#72 ·
I'm starting to think that most of what people see intuition/sensation into is really largely thinking/feeling (anything that reveals itself as a rationale is going to come from the rational functions - N/S are largely matters of interpretation or examining the actual acts of adaptation a person makes, let alone, how they deal with questions of an inconclusive nature (intuition)). Deep meaning in something is more of a feeling rationale, unless it becomes an issue of the empirical, which would transfer it into the realm of intuition. I mean, it's quite common to get Fi doms who you really can't tell the first auxiliary because of how much Fi might resemble misperceptions of intuition.
 
#74 ·
F is great for telling people off. "you just pissed me off...go tie some weights around your ankles and drown yourself" and then T is for "hmmm...maybe I should a been nicer." My slightly stronger F though usually turns around and says. "Naaaah, the bastard deserved it."
 
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#78 ·
I really dislike this widespread generalization of T as intellectual and logical and F as irrational and overemotional. It seems to contribute to this idea that T people don't have emotions and F people rely on them and ignore logic. I've read somewhere that these judging functions are more about paying attention either the use (T) of things/people versus the meaning (F) of things/people. Everyone needs to be able to engage with logic and think rationally but there is nothing inferior about understanding and nurturing your feelings.
 
#79 ·
I find thinkers to be more stupid then feelers but that's just my bias which is why I'm an 'eff' and not a 'tee'. :) Some people don't even recognize their own biases though which is just too bad for them. :)
 
#97 ·
I'll admit that I have a similar bias, but I certainly don't consider all Feelers "stupid". I'm not sure if I can even describe how I consider them... other than just being emotional and subjective when it comes to making decisions, which I find dumb.
 
#83 ·
Lol. Even the people who wrote those tests know better. I guess it depends on how you define intelligence- ability to understand and solve real complex issues... Or ability to sit down and take a test meant to test one type of abstract reasoning. I don't care what your IQ is, if you aren't doing anything besides watching netflix all day you are not intelligent. And my IQ is 145


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#84 ·
Of course there's more to intelligence than just IQ. What I meant is that there is no better gauge to intelligence than IQ. Maybe some day in the future there will be a better gauge to what intelligence really is and IQ will no longer be necessary as a gauge.
 
#85 ·
IQ tests to a great extent measure logic, just one aspect of intelligence. People can come down hard on IQ clubs but imo people who have a gift at logic are no different than people who have other gifts, such as artistic. People typically like to get together with others who are gifted in the same way, and IQ clubs fill that need for people with a logic gift.

I always seemed to myself to be more intelligent than my INTP boyfriend, but when he took an IQ test, his score was 3 points higher than mine. Not much, but it surprised me until I understood that I'd been to a certain extent basing intelligence on a person's perceptiveness. Since then, I've thought there should be a test and a club for perceptive people. ;)
 
#86 ·
I always seemed to myself to be more intelligent than my INTP boyfriend, but when he took an IQ test, his score was 3 points higher than mine. Not much, but it surprised me until I understood that I'd been to a certain extent basing intelligence on a person's perceptiveness. Since then, I've thought there should be a test and a club for perceptive people. ;)
Marvelous, there totally should be a club for perceptive people! I would totally join a club like that and share my perceptions and learn of other peoples' perceptions with no judgement. :)
 
#87 ·
I would say an awareness and understanding of what's going on around you, which isn't necessarily connected to IQ. The greatest perspective would be understanding both the surface and the actual truth with regard to physical and emotional aspects of life. Understanding emotional game playing of others would be one example, as would understanding that body language sometimes tells more about the person's emotional state than what they're saying. Perceptiveness can be in any arena, including, for example, the physical and what animals are doing. It not an N vs. S or T vs. F issue, since any type can be perceptive or oblivious in any area, depending on their gifts and training.

Edit: I answered a question that was taken away. :)

@MNiS, I rate perceptiveness so highly that it's difficult to have friends who are lacking it. Yes, there needs to be a club. ;)
 
#88 ·
Edit:
Seagreen said:
@MNiS, I rate perceptiveness so highly that it's difficult to have friends who are lacking it. Yes, there needs to be a club. ;)
We should totally start one. :)

Old Response:
Sounds like an EXXJ answer and wrong for me. I'd still join a Perception Club though as long as no one were trying to coerce their opinions on to me or threaten me if I didn't accept their point of view. I hate it when people start becoming judgmental about perceptions. That's how fights and even wars break out. Both figuratively and literally.
 
#89 ·
Sounds like an EXXJ answer and wrong for me. I'd still join a Perception Club though as long as no one were trying to coerce their opinions on to me or threaten me if I didn't accept their point of view. I hate it when people start becoming judgmental about perceptions and that's how fights and even war break out.
A club where we could argue what perception means. :D I get what you're saying and I feel the same.

I'm not Fe dom, in fact I'm not sure who I am.
 
#102 ·
"The difference between the Feeling Function and Emotions can be understood more clearly. The Feeling Function is a cortical capacity to recognize the presence or absence of harmony – between colors, tones, or human beings. By contrast, emotions are a limbic capacity to experience delight, anger, fear, grief."
[/INDENT][/INDENT]
This might explain why EVERY NFP I've EVER known has been a musician or a singer of some sort. :p

But could it not be said that Ti recognizes / appreciates logical harmony? How would you distinguish the two?
 
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