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Functions, and how they work.

105K views 377 replies 103 participants last post by  Eren Jaegerbomb 
#1 · (Edited)
This is for me to see if my understanding of what is meant by different cognitive functions is right. I'm a Te user, so I like to have a system of understanding things that everyone can agree upon as being right. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Perceiving Functions

Here's a fantastic piece of art from one of the ISFPs. (Do you mind me using it? If you do, I will remove it and use one of my own creations.)
Se will notice the vividness of the colours, the details of the lines and shapes, and immerse themselves in enjoying the objects and colours and details.
Si will notice the details in terms of the subconscious impression they make on the person, their own personal interpretation of what they see, relating it back to past experiences and eternal images from the unconscious.
Ne will see alternate meanings, alternate ways of interpreting the picture, suggestions of metaphors or the art may catalyse action from the ideas present in it.
Ni will be focused on the significance of the subject and its meaning from different possible perspectives, it may represent or spark some insight into their own personal understanding of the world, it may symbolize universal concepts.

So now, to go from that example to using more technical language to describe how it works.
- Se notices the details. Attention is captured by the object, separate from the self, and is held by experiencing the outer world in rich detail. it is an objective function, ie it gains energy by focusing on what is readily observable in the real world. Vivid experiences energize Se.
- Ne is also an objective function. How it differs from Se is that it does not notice physical, concrete objects, but it notices the ideas or concepts inherent or present in these objects. Every object can suggest ideas and possibilities. Playing with ideas, concepts, metaphors, and meanings of words energize Ne.
- Si is a subjective function. Instead of noticing the object, the impression, meaning, significance or "rightness" of an object is noticed by Si. Awareness of the actual object itself is repressed, but the personal representation of the object is heightened. New impressions are connected to past or known impressions, even to universal images. Positive or negative sensations may be connected with the subjective representation of the object.
- Ni is also a subjective function, but it is the subjective side of intuition. Ideas and concepts are important in the impression they make on the person, and the personal subjective value of them. Concepts and patterns of universal importance draw Ni's attention, and understanding the concepts, perspectives, and underlying assumptions that shape the world fascinates Ni.


Judging Functions

I don't really have an example for these. So I'll just give some brief descriptions.

- Fi is a subjective value-based reasoning that allows the user to make judgements based on personal ideas of what has value and what does not, and what is right and what is not. Fi dominants focus on refining their value judgements, for example their ideas of right and wrong.
- Fe is an objective value-based reasoning that ascribes value when everyone can agree upon it.
- Te is objective reasoning based on observable facts. Decisions are made based on impersonal standards. Te is objective in that the logic used should be universally understood and agreed upon.
- Ti is subjective impersonal reasoning. It involves clarifying concepts by breaking them down into the smallest possible parts. Ti desires to build a logically complete system to understand something, or the world in general.

That's all for now, as I'm rather tired. I may be adding more later.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Here are my two main sources:
Some great descriptions of function characteristics: http://www.enfpforum.com/Wiki/tabid/56/Default.aspx?topic=Cognitive+Functions
Jung's original work: http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm
 
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#62 ·
@Liminality

that's really interesting. what i saw in your post was that you use an incredible amount of Ne but it's subservient to your dominant function, as in: your dominant is Si, so your inferior is Ne, but i guess all that really means is that you have this uneven "bar" where 1/3 is Ne, and 2/3 is labeled Si, the difference in size has tilted it one way causing you to lead with Si but at the same you may be using Ne almost as much, even more so that your auxiliary/tertiary (i think)... maybe one cannot be used without the aid of the other in the beginning stages... and it's only through following a "path" far enough that a particular thought can now stand alone on the foundation of the dominant process...????

anyhow, your mention of Si making you aware of a "wrongness" made me think about how my Ni makes see a connection in everything--so maybe your Si is like the opposite of deja vu? (kidding :p, i really have no idea) it gets to the point where i am constantly having deja vu, it's like my mind has noticed that there is an A-Z and this time it sees A-T and it's trying to make me aware of that, and another time it'll say, "hey this is just like A-T but B, C, and F are missing", and from there it will say, "well, really this is just like A-T again, or it's not actually but i just want to let you know it could be rearranged these 6 different ways to get the same result--oh and then that over there is also the same, or it could be--"--there's absolutely no reason for all of this, it's just something that happens at least a few times a day (and as soon as it comes it's gone of course--nature of deja vu--the connections seem pointless).
 
#63 ·
maybe one cannot be used without the aid of the other in the beginning stages... and it's only through following a "path" far enough that a particular thought can now stand alone on the foundation of the dominant process...????

anyhow, your mention of Si making you aware of a "wrongness" made me think about how my Ni makes see a connection in everything--so maybe your Si is like the opposite of deja vu? (kidding :p, i really have no idea) it gets to the point where i am constantly having deja vu, it's like my mind has noticed that there is an A-Z and this time it sees A-T and it's trying to make me aware of that, and another time it'll say, "hey this is just like A-T but B, C, and F are missing", and from there it will say, "well, really this is just like A-T again, or it's not actually but i just want to let you know it could be rearranged these 6 different ways to get the same result--oh and then that over there is also the same, or it could be--"--there's absolutely no reason for all of this, it's just something that happens at least a few times a day (and as soon as it comes it's gone of course--nature of deja vu--the connections seem pointless).
I see them as being used in conjunction - why I have trouble identifying my use of Fe in myself, I can see my Si and Ne working together kind a kind of - sense/absorb/recieve information, associate/process/associate, seek/intuit/relate (Like, I need to work through each piece of the web very carefully (Si), and my Ne helps me move on to the next square), and I very much relate to the Fe/Ti descriptions out there, but it's much easier to identify the conjoined process of information/input (percieving functions) than with...judging of F and T functions...Fe is related more so to the outside world, whereas the others seem more internal/related to ideas/pure things, not...people as people, and feelings as feelings ( rather than feelings as another form of information)... I can sort've get Fe in terms of behaviour, but I still struggle. I do recognise Ne in myself alot, but I agree I think it's not something that overtakes me Si, maybe sort've like my inferior function which I invested in a lot more than my auxillary, or atleast I have much more conscious awareness of, than it. So it's kind've inferior function with a power boost, but it's still my inferior. I don't relate to it as something I feel shadowy/ashamed about, as some describe the inferior function. At least I don't think so. I'm not sure what it would feel like to feel ashamed about Ne...Descriptions of unhealthy use of inferior Ne are generally about negative assuptions...perhaps anticipating shame if that's the assumption, but about the function itself? Not really.

I think that's your auxillary Fe butting in. I'm a little confused by this measure of "rightness". I can connect things better when they are accurate or truthful. I think what we have in common is a sense of security in it.
So with having trouble with Fe in mind, it's helpful to hear this. I'm still not quite sure about it though. It's just theory because it may well relate to how I use Fe, but I'm still feeling unsolid about the idea of Fe, so speculation is purely me thinking what is a likely case/feels right. I probably need another ISFJ here to tell me whether I'm talking any sense/if they can relate it to Fe for sure.
As for 'rightness'/accuracy and truth...I suppose I could say it's assigning value judgements to the information in some way; subjectivising. I've read the abstract forms created by Si plus Fe causes the ISFJ to be hesitant to state their opinions, as they feel everything is subjective, or something along those lines - they feel the distance between an objective reality and what's held in their minds. This is how I feel about Fe, I've got the result of it, but like the writer of the description, the process itself is sort of something I'm trying to figure out/have yet to make coherent/shed some light on.


The opposite of deja vu? Hmm, trying to visualise this...I'm not sure...The abstract past I go to to move forwards/to the present? Rather than something in the present taking you kinda backwards/elsewhere.
 
#64 ·
I don't relate to it as something I feel shadowy/ashamed about, as some describe the inferior function. At least I don't think so.
I totally agree about inferior Se in me as well. I have no shame about it, nor do I find it all creepily shadowy like the descriptions try to make it out to be. It's wonky, but I don't have a problem with this (it's downright intriguing in the inferior position imo). I'm familiar enough with it that it doesn't seem that way (I get annoyed when the descriptions try too hard to turn the inferior into some depressing moral issue for some reason), although the thought of living life from it as a dominant perspective is a pretty weird thought.
 
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#65 ·
I've been thinking a lot about the inferior function. Inferior functions are always slightly uncontrollable to the person who uses them, and they also conflict with the dominant function because they are opposites. This makes the inferior in others scary, since the user cannot control it in themselves. This is why the inferior seems to come out in bursts.

It isn't always bad though, since when it is controlled and used properly it can work well and lead to a good feeling, and can be a very good alternate perspective to the dominant.
 
#66 · (Edited)
While the first time I looked at this picture I was really enjoying all the colours and details. Now I treat it in my normal way of understanding things, like this:

I try to recreate in my own mind the full scene, everything else that wasn't included in the picture, the rest of the picture. I looked at it and visualized the water drop flowing down the branch, collecting on the drop, and the rest of the tree that isn't visible, and reconstructing parts of the scene that aren't there from the image in the water drop. I can see that it's a bright, summer, cloudy day, and it was probably a thunderstorm that caused said rainfall event.

This is what I do with everything. Start with some few facts, and try to use that to extrapolate what the rest of the picture must be. Ex socially, I hear a friends side of a story, and while her perspective is clear, I also try to pick out clues from what she said the other people did in order to figure out what their side of the story is as well.

I have no idea what functions this could be. It seems like Ni-Te like what @huiwcleon described, but I'm not sure how to deconstruct it, or why this particular form of thinking is Ni-Te.

It may appear to be somewhat like Ti, in that certain rules or axioms about how the world works direct my mind and I use them by slipping into them, but the understanding of those axioms are not consious -- I just know how the rain will slowly travel down the branch, having watched water drip several times before. But there was no sense of multiple possibilities (Ne) - I only focused on one possibility. Perhaps it is Ti-Se? But Se doesn't make sense either, as I wasn't focused on what was visible or present, but on what wasn't.

I can visualize what happened in my mind, see how the outcome will be, explain to others what it would look like, and tell others about how gravity and surface tension cause certain events to happen, but that is just an explanation on top of my already-existing experience of watching water flow. It could be Ni-Te in that I know why, and then try to explain it using principles and logic that I have learned as correct from the general consensus.

So to sum it up I start with a set of facts (there is a huge white blob) and then try to figure out why and what caused that outcome (the sun is shining on a white cloud and reflecting that towards the viewer).
 
#67 ·
That picture interests me. First off, my mind puts together that it is not-a-photograph from the very start, and then it takes in what the picture is, and a mini-characterization occurs of the branch as a hand holding the droplet.

Then comes an attempt at extrapolation of the rest of the picture. The picture faded in the background is only enough to make it clear that it is a forest, so the droplet seems to hold the key to figuring out more specific details. But as I'm looking at the droplet a significant shift occurs from trying to figure out the detail of the picture, to a practically-instant grasp of metaphor: the whole or a large part of the forest might well be reflected in the droplet; the whole shines through in the smallest part. The picture now appeals to me more, since I saw a deeper message in it, and I try to see the potential in the message. If I'd gone on without writing this out, my thinking would have expanded to other subjects in which this same principle seems to appear, how the principle is manifested (trying to get an exact grasp on how it works in different contexts, and just how far I can extend this idea), and I would probably be staring at the picture itself for hours while this is going on.

I think I am using Ni as a base, but I am not sure.
 
#69 ·
That you noticed the signature on the piece of art first. That's all.

You can't really conceptualize functions like "what am I using when I do x" or "what am I doing when I do y." That's not how they work, they are ways of processing and filtering information, more like gears or perspectives not tools you use in a moment. ESFJ is a dominant Extraverted Feeling type. Their ship is driven by Fe and supported in a minority capacity by Introverted Sensing (a perspective wherein your perception of the qualities of an object is paramount to the innate qualities of the object).
 
#70 ·
@Owfin just a short question...

Do you need cues to bring back the memories which come flooding in or are you able to pull them up on your own quite easily?
 
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#72 ·
That is a beautiful picture, but I am confused as to which functions go with which letters. I am INFP, so which functions would I have?
 
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#75 ·
When somebody watches an action movie, and they absolutely have to point out the impossibility of stunts performed and how they could never happen in real life, would this be a good example of Te, or Ti?
 
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#76 ·
Probably either, since they would both fixate on the logic or lack of logic on it. Te, just being extroverted, might have a higher probability of pointing it out though, of course, while the Ti user might just laugh at it.
 
#77 ·
Pardon me for dropping in like 7 years after the last post...

Here was my thought process (I think) when I saw the picture:

1. Oooh, that's pretty!
2. That's a well-taken photo. Such vibrant color and great use of focus. I LOVE the water droplet.
3. They must have been wondering through the forest after a rain and spotted this wonderful photo-op.
4. Somebody is passionate about art and beauty and nature, and was in the right place at the right time. I'm glad they were able to capture this so that I could appreciate it too.
5. I don't know anything about photography, but this inspires me to take pictures of random, interesting, beautiful things.

Then as I traveled down the thread, I noticed comments about refraction... I kept going. Then I finally reached comments that revealed to me that it was indeed NOT a photograph. I was clueless. I just went with the story I created in my head of someone walking through the forest. I would have kept right on believing it was a photograph if I had not read certain parts of the thread.

I don't know exactly what this says about my functions, but apparently I didn't take note of the finer details.

Such a lovely phot... er... painting.
 
#79 ·
my thought process went something like this:
1. ooh what vivid, beautiful greens. i love green. this strikes me as very ISFP.
2. is this a photogr...oh wait, this is a digital painting (i think?)
3. i noticed the signature then my mind went off on a tangent about signatures on digital art...
4. the i admired the reflections and how well-done they are.
5. i wondered why the artist chose this as their subject.
6. the suspended water drop vaguely reminds me of planet earth, even though it's more green and not blue.
7. had vague existential thoughts about the size of the universe and how small we are in it.
 
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#82 · (Edited)
This is my understanding of the functions. I simplified them so I and others can more easily understand them. Correct me if I am wrong in my understanding.


Perceiving

The image in the first post of this thread shows a drop of water hanging on the edge of a branch. The background is blurry and keeps your focus on the branch. The image shows bright greens and dark browns, providing great contrast in color. The clearest part of the image is what is shown within the water drop.

Se: I see a stick with water on it. The picture has great detail and vivid colors.
Si: The water drop reminds me of when it would rain a lot back home.
Ne: That branch looks like asparagus. What if asparagus were once spears? I got cut today.
Ni: One sees a branch, another sees a brush. One shows beauty, the other inspires.

Contrast Differences
Se: Sees the details. Focuses on the details.
Si: Sees the details. Focuses on the details, and what they mean to the individual.

Ne: Sees the picture. Thinks of abstract ideas related to the objects observed.
Ni: Sees the picture. Thinks of concrete ideas related to the objects observed.


Judging

If you were playing chess with a kid, what thoughts would come to mind?

Te: I can't move my Pawn forward because another piece is in its way.
Ti: Pawns start on rows 2 and 7. It only takes two turns for them to be adjacent.
Fe: I feel it would be mean to beat a kid, and I know others would agree.
Fi: Others say beating a kid is mean, but I know teaching a lesson is more important.

Contrast Differences
Te: Thinks about the details. Analyses the rules.
Ti: Thinks about the details. Analyses the mechanics.

Fe: Thinks about the situation. Considers group values, and the impact on those involved.
Fi: Thinks about the situation. Considers personal values, what they think is right.

 
#83 ·
Interesting analogies, except I might switch Fe and Fi. Fe is more about thinking about the social harmony of others (eg, thinking about how the kid will feel); Fi projects its own value set on the group, if it thinks about the group at all.
 
#84 · (Edited)
Thanks for the input. I was thinking along those lines before, but went along with what someone else told me (they have more experience with personality types than me.). If I'm not very knowledgeable on a subject, I tend to be easily persuaded. After researching Fe vs Fi a bit though, it sounds like you know what's correct. I switched Fe and Fi traits, and changed their descriptions a bit.

I never thought of this until today, but I think everyone generally shares the same initial reaction. People often mistake their initial reaction as them using a function.

For example, if loud music (hurting your ears loud.) suddenly starts playing, people will first notice the pain to their ears. After the pain, some will make different actions. Some will turn the sound down, and some will notice that it's their favorite song playing. Same way when someone sees a picture, they will notice if it is colored or black and white. But what they do next is the question. Do they study the colors and details more closely? Or do they notice a person in the picture who looks like a celebrity?

If my thinking is correct, then that might be where the confusion comes from. I thought I had dominant Se. I do pay attention to the details and notice the beauty in a picture, but I don't necessarily study the details. I may instead take notice that the branch looks like a paint brush.
 
#85 ·
I had a question. I think I have extroverted Intuition, but I can sometimes see extroverted sensing in me. For instance I can sometimes smell distinctive smells that tell me when certain people have been. Also I can hear things and instantly Visualize in my mind what that thing is. So does that mean I am an Extraverted sensor, not an extraverted Intuitive?
 
#86 ·
That sounds like it could be introverted Sensing (it looks like focus on a storehouse of data, rather than just the emergent data by itself). And INFJ is neither Si or Ne, though Se is inferior.
Really, that is not necessarily type specific at all, as anyone can smell or hear things, really. It's whether it's your preferred way of taking in information.
 
#87 ·
No I meant I can pick up distinctive smells about people. I guess that could be introverted sensing, but sometimes I don't think it is. For instance I've recently picked up a strong smell of what smells like, cologne, fish and old feet. I've started to assume that it is my grandad because the smell wasn't there before until he showed up and I came to the conclusion that the cause of the smell is that he hasn't bathed in a while or since he got here. (He's kind of.... fragile). So would that be extraverted sensing or introverted sensing? Either I still don't think I am a sensing dom-. All my results on Keys2cognition would indicate that.
 
#90 ·
I saw the picture and played a video of the water droplet falling, and then thought about the forces that would be acting upon the the droplet, how it would affect the twig, and what it would look like when it hit the ground.

Was this Ne playing out a possible scenario, and Ti following it up and analyzing? Did anyone else have something similar happen to them?
 
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#92 ·
I first noticed it's detail and that the branch looks like a pipe along with the droplet. On a quick glance it looked quite real. Then a dude came to mind

He and a bunch of others are looking for something. He seems to be fascinated by the beauty of nature so he's taking pictures. Can't blame him, nature can sure be pretty. What are they doing there anyway? Are they looking for a holy place? An ancient tomb plagued by myths? An asteriod that crashed glowing purple and a extraterrestial friend along with it or something in it which grants powers? Perhaps an ancient place with something that used to be worshipped, something 'from the heavens'? A holy place for the few? How close are they to finding it? Will they ever? Are their intentions good? Are they aware that certain creatures might be watching them? Gaurdians of what they are trying to find? What have they already seen?

Maybe it's in another world where things are way bigger. They got trapped into another world while looking for something on Earth which turned against them or they met a fcking crazy jungle wizard who has shrunken them down.

Or perhaps it is a bug's view.

No. It's a painting. A painting of a water droplet falling of off a branch after a pouring of rain.
 
#93 ·
The first time I read your post I completely ignored that picture thinking of it as decoration. Even while going through the post I never felt the urge to look at it but rather felt that you could probably avoid using it altogether since rest of your post makes sense even if the picture is not there. It could be like if there was a picture then Se would notice vividness of the colors while Ne would see alternate meanings etc.

But then I thought the picture is really beautiful and perhaps most of the readers would love to see it there. So instead of relating the picture to rest of your post, I rather related it to a different purpose altogether.
 
#94 ·
I think I just realized that most of what it thought to be "Te" around here is probably the epitome of "concrete thinking" to Jung (you know, like the kind of stuff that can't transgress ideas of what thinking is collectively considered to be relative to what it could be in a more impersonally abstract sense). Extreme inferior thinking would probably be that kind of cartoonish, dogmatically subjective thinking you might get with people who declare something to be "the truth" about the merit of something (MBTI, anyone?).
 
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