[ENFP] Religious ENFP party! :D C'mon in, fellow believers... - Page 4

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This is a discussion on Religious ENFP party! :D C'mon in, fellow believers... within the ENFP Forum - The Inspirers forums, part of the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers category; Luke 14:11-"For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled and he that humbles himself will be exalted.” Jesus was one ...

  1. #31
    ENFP - The Inspirers

    Luke 14:11-"For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled and he that humbles himself will be exalted.” Jesus was one of the most humble people of the universe besides his Father. To be a christian means to be christ-like, humility is essential.
    CynicallyNaive and brightlywound thanked this post.

  2. #32
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Sorry to crash the party. I hate to bring my INTP logical brain to this emotional party. I have a problem, however, that I wish you guys to help me with. I am Catholic, and I have recently had my life changed quite radically by an ENFP Mormon: Lindsey Stirling (No worries, I'm not thinking of converting to LDS). I feel like the only way I can repay this incredible person is to bring her to the Catholic Church. I have absolutely no personal ties, but I am able to communicate through posts in her website. I have just come up with a fool-proof argument to combat Mormonism (though not necessarily promote Catholicism), but it is highly logical in nature and I am not sure whether it would appeal to the "feeling" mind. I want to know your opinions on it and whether you think it has any chance of converting an ENFP. Here is the argument:

    1) My mind tells me that for something to come from nothing is impossible, yet we exist, so something HAD to have come from nothing. This means that our logic is not in sync with our actual reality, and hence we cannot be 100% sure of anything except our existence due to our flawed logic.

    2) Given our inability to rely on pure logic when it comes to debating God's existence or plan for us (hence making any side just as likely), religious arguments will depend on the most important question: which religion has the greatest chance of making me happy, both in this life and the next?

    3) Pascal's Wager excludes atheism due to the chance of hell or heaven.

    4) Mormons and Catholics both have similar values: importance of family, spreading the Word, not "going with the flow", modesty, (among other traditional values that the person I am trying to convert places a high importance in). Speaking through experience they are both religions that give happiness to its believers (at least when it comes to practicing Catholics and Mormons, I have realized that these two religions have the greatest chance of causing happiness; Happy Planet Index gives high scores to many mostly-Catholic nations; Provo, Utah is also ranked high in happiness in the USA by many studies).

    5) Given the choice between these two religions, why Catholicism? Easy; Mormons do not believe in hell. They believe that people who are devout in other religions go to a "type 2" heaven, which is a very good place to be in, yet lower than the place for the devout Mormons.
    Using an adapted version of Pascal's Wasger, I arrive at the following argument. If I am Mormon, and Mormons, are correct, then I win a bit more in the afterlife. If I am Mormon, and Catholicism is correct, then there is a chance (however small) that I may go to a place of eternal punishment. If I am Catholic, and Mormons are right, then I still go to a paradise. If I am Catholic, and Catholicism is correct, I also go to paradise.
    So Catholicism is logically the better choice between these two. When it comes to other religions, I still have not developed an argument.

    Of course, since this person places a high importance in family, it is unlikely that she would risk being separated from her family in the after life ("type 2" heaven is separated from "type 3" heaven), which is why I have to work on the emotional side of the argument a bit. So, what do you guys think of it?

  3. #33
    ENFP - The Inspirers


    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo.sacasa View Post
    Sorry to crash the party. I hate to bring my INTP logical brain to this emotional party. I have a problem, however, that I wish you guys to help me with. I am Catholic, and I have recently had my life changed quite radically by an ENFP Mormon: Lindsey Stirling (No worries, I'm not thinking of converting to LDS). I feel like the only way I can repay this incredible person is to bring her to the Catholic Church. I have absolutely no personal ties, but I am able to communicate through posts in her website. I have just come up with a fool-proof argument to combat Mormonism (though not necessarily promote Catholicism), but it is highly logical in nature and I am not sure whether it would appeal to the "feeling" mind. I want to know your opinions on it and whether you think it has any chance of converting an ENFP. Here is the argument:

    1) My mind tells me that for something to come from nothing is impossible, yet we exist, so something HAD to have come from nothing. This means that our logic is not in sync with our actual reality, and hence we cannot be 100% sure of anything except our existence due to our flawed logic.

    2) Given our inability to rely on pure logic when it comes to debating God's existence or plan for us (hence making any side just as likely), religious arguments will depend on the most important question: which religion has the greatest chance of making me happy, both in this life and the next?

    3) Pascal's Wager excludes atheism due to the chance of hell or heaven.

    4) Mormons and Catholics both have similar values: importance of family, spreading the Word, not "going with the flow", modesty, (among other traditional values that the person I am trying to convert places a high importance in). Speaking through experience they are both religions that give happiness to its believers (at least when it comes to practicing Catholics and Mormons, I have realized that these two religions have the greatest chance of causing happiness; Happy Planet Index gives high scores to many mostly-Catholic nations; Provo, Utah is also ranked high in happiness in the USA by many studies).

    5) Given the choice between these two religions, why Catholicism? Easy; Mormons do not believe in hell. They believe that people who are devout in other religions go to a "type 2" heaven, which is a very good place to be in, yet lower than the place for the devout Mormons.
    Using an adapted version of Pascal's Wasger, I arrive at the following argument. If I am Mormon, and Mormons, are correct, then I win a bit more in the afterlife. If I am Mormon, and Catholicism is correct, then there is a chance (however small) that I may go to a place of eternal punishment. If I am Catholic, and Mormons are right, then I still go to a paradise. If I am Catholic, and Catholicism is correct, I also go to paradise.
    So Catholicism is logically the better choice between these two. When it comes to other religions, I still have not developed an argument.

    Of course, since this person places a high importance in family, it is unlikely that she would risk being separated from her family in the after life ("type 2" heaven is separated from "type 3" heaven), which is why I have to work on the emotional side of the argument a bit. So, what do you guys think of it?
    But are you aware that you are being violent? When you call yourself a Roman Catholic or a Mormon or a Muslim or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind. Love can not exist where there is attachment. If you are attached to your church, there is no love in your heart.

    Your gods are being put by thoughts. You are following, just like her, a belief based on a thought. Jesus Christ never came here to build churches. You invented God and created him after your own image. There is nothing sacred in the church, in the mosque, in the temples. They are all the inventions of thought. And we all know where this has led to. Separation and Violence.

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  5. #34
    INTP - The Thinkers

    It is hard to convince the emotional mind, I have seen. Read my entire comment again before you reply. You will see why it is logical to be religious. About your theory of violence; do you have any scientific evidence or logical argument to support your theory that people who call themselves Catholics are more violent or in some way breed violence? A key aspect of Catholicism is that we believe we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and that everyone has equal dignity. It is true that there are some "Catholics" who do not follow the teachings of the Church and sometimes hate on others, but these aren't true Catholics.
    In fact, some studies have shown that humans EVOLVED to be religious; that religion allowed them to go into the "second level" of their mind, where they no longer place an importance on themselves and work for the good of the whole;the world. Does this mean God doesn't exist? Absolutely not. It could simply be another way for God to have made us religious.
    A key aspect of my personal beliefs (might not be Catholic) is that I do not know with 100% certainty that God exists or that Catholicism is the true religion. However, a series of logical "gambles" has led me to the conclusion that it is unreasonable to be atheist, agnostic, or a few others like the Church of LDS. Read my previous comment again and you will see this is true (DO NOT REPLY UNTIL YOU HAVE READ MY PREVIOUS COMMENT AGAIN). I do not say the above mentioned are necessarily wrong, but I say that it is unreasonable to live as though they are right.
    And tell me, how can a belief not be based on thoughts? And how is it that attachment to a religion, which teaches me to not be completely loyal to anything except God, stops me from being able to love? Love is the act of self sacrifice for another person. You are using what your emotions tell you. I am using what my logic tells me.
    All in Twilight thanked this post.

  6. #35
    ENFP - The Inspirers


    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo.sacasa View Post
    It is hard to convince the emotional mind, I have seen. Read my entire comment again before you reply. You will see why it is logical to be religious. About your theory of violence; do you have any scientific evidence or logical argument to support your theory that people who call themselves Catholics are more violent or in some way breed violence? A key aspect of Catholicism is that we believe we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and that everyone has equal dignity. It is true that there are some "Catholics" who do not follow the teachings of the Church and sometimes hate on others, but these aren't true Catholics.
    In fact, some studies have shown that humans EVOLVED to be religious; that religion allowed them to go into the "second level" of their mind, where they no longer place an importance on themselves and work for the good of the whole;the world. Does this mean God doesn't exist? Absolutely not. It could simply be another way for God to have made us religious.
    A key aspect of my personal beliefs (might not be Catholic) is that I do not know with 100% certainty that God exists or that Catholicism is the true religion. However, a series of logical "gambles" has led me to the conclusion that it is unreasonable to be atheist, agnostic, or a few others like the Church of LDS. Read my previous comment again and you will see this is true (DO NOT REPLY UNTIL YOU HAVE READ MY PREVIOUS COMMENT AGAIN). I do not say the above mentioned are necessarily wrong, but I say that it is unreasonable to live as though they are right.
    You have to quote me if you want to notify me.

    I am not opposed to organized religion but I am convinced that they do not contain truth. We live in a profoundly sick society based on Christian (religious) values. Or...Values made up by the church and not by God. We humans are flawed and therefore are our religions are flawed because they are man made thoughts. This has led to conflict many times.

    You speak of scientific evidence but meanwhile you logically "gamble". You don't know for sure if God exists but yet I have to love him and believe in him. That doesn't make any sense. You talk about heaven and hell but you have never seen heaven and hell. You have created division between her and yourself by following a concept you have no know of.

    I did read your previous post but you have failed to understand what I was pointing out.

  7. #36
    ENFP - The Inspirers


    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo.sacasa View Post
    1) My mind tells me that for something to come from nothing is impossible, yet we exist, so something HAD to have come from nothing. This means that our logic is not in sync with our actual reality, and hence we cannot be 100% sure of anything except our existence due to our flawed logic.

    2) Given our inability to rely on pure logic when it comes to debating God's existence or plan for us (hence making any side just as likely), religious arguments will depend on the most important question: which religion has the greatest chance of making me happy, both in this life and the next?
    Not necessarily. Religious arguments hinge on what the individual actually believes.

    A belief in unicorns would make the world seem more magical and would, yeah, probably make me happier. I am not, however, able to convince myself that unicorns exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo.sacasa View Post
    5) Given the choice between these two religions, why Catholicism? Easy; Mormons do not believe in hell. They believe that people who are devout in other religions go to a "type 2" heaven, which is a very good place to be in, yet lower than the place for the devout Mormons.
    Using an adapted version of Pascal's Wasger, I arrive at the following argument. If I am Mormon, and Mormons, are correct, then I win a bit more in the afterlife. If I am Mormon, and Catholicism is correct, then there is a chance (however small) that I may go to a place of eternal punishment. If I am Catholic, and Mormons are right, then I still go to a paradise. If I am Catholic, and Catholicism is correct, I also go to paradise.
    So Catholicism is logically the better choice between these two. When it comes to other religions, I still have not developed an argument.
    Do you also throw spilled salt over your shoulder, refuse to stand under ladders, and avoid black cats "just in case"?

    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo.sacasa View Post
    It is hard to convince the emotional mind, I have seen.
    If you talk like this to the ENFP as you try to convert her, she will probably find you condescending and annoying.

    If you're trying to please her and reward her, an attempt to change her is not the right way. ENFPs don't take kindly to that.
    NaughyChimp thanked this post.

  8. #37
    ENFP - The Inspirers


    Quote Originally Posted by chimeric View Post
    Not necessarily. Religious arguments hinge on what the individual actually believes.

    A belief in unicorns would make the world seem more magical and would, yeah, probably make me happier. I am not, however, able to convince myself that unicorns exist.




    Do you also throw spilled salt over your shoulder, refuse to stand under ladders, and avoid black cats "just in case"?



    If you talk like this to the ENFP as you try to convert her, she will probably find you condescending and annoying.

    If you're trying to please her and reward her, an attempt to change her is not the right way. ENFPs don't take kindly to that.
    @eduardo.sacasa → and this ^ *grins*

  9. #38
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by eduardo.sacasa View Post
    Using an adapted version of Pascal's Wasger, I arrive at the following argument. If I am Mormon, and Mormons, are correct, then I win a bit more in the afterlife. If I am Mormon, and Catholicism is correct, then there is a chance (however small) that I may go to a place of eternal punishment. If I am Catholic, and Mormons are right, then I still go to a paradise. If I am Catholic, and Catholicism is correct, I also go to paradise.
    So Catholicism is logically the better choice between these two. When it comes to other religions, I still have not developed an argument.
    What?

    Mormon is win/win in this scenario. Given that there's no such thing as a good Catholic, the probability is higher that you're damned regardless of whether or not it's the "correct" religion. I hope you're wearing your scapular.

  10. #39
    ENFP - The Inspirers

    Quote Originally Posted by brightlywound View Post
    1. How do you feel God in your life? How do you know he's there for you? - 2. Why is your faith important to you? - 2. How does your ENFP-ness jive with your faith (i.e. it gives you feelings of strength, it conflicts with it, does it feel weird talking to a deity who doesn't immediately talk back, etc.)?
    Cookies! *noms*

    1. I don't sense or recognize a God/Goddess separate to the Universe. It's all together for me, and with me too - a great big flower of sacred.
    2. It's inseperable from my every moment - except in down moments.
    3. As perhaps is clear, it goes quite well. My drive is for wholeness, synthesis, health - and learning new facets of all those.
    Drewski thanked this post.

  11. #40
    ENFP - The Inspirers

    "All matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration, we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, there's no such thing as death, and life is only a dream which is an imagination of ourselves." - Bill Hicks

    :) I'm just a single cog in a complex machine, a cog attempting to understand how the machine works.
    Mojo415 thanked this post.


     
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