Sx/So vs. Sx/Sp (to the death?)

Sx/So vs. Sx/Sp (to the death?)

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This is a discussion on Sx/So vs. Sx/Sp (to the death?) within the Enneagram Personality Theory Forum forums, part of the Personality Type Forums category; (This was a comment of mine on another site, but I decided to post it here for discussion.) Note: These ...

  1. #1
    Type 4w5

    Sx/So vs. Sx/Sp (to the death?)

    (This was a comment of mine on another site, but I decided to post it here for discussion.)


    Note: These are relative comparisons and they are exaggerated for comparative clarity.



    1. Freedom
    Sx/Sp's believe in freedom. And they don't just believe in it as an abstract concept, but in reality. They don't want to be held down, confined, restricted, or contained. But then there's the problem of their siren, their drug, their love...an Sx/Sp would sell their soul to merge with their object of desire (be it a person, idea, or whatever). They will tirelessly fight off all other chains placed on them, but they will willingly don the handcuffs binding them to their love. The Sx/Sp ideal is to run away with their love and leave all the world behind.

    Sx/So's will not do this. Freedom is too precious to surrender, even to the object of their deepest affection. The Sx/So ideal is not to run away but to stand and fight, tearing down the walls and breaking all chains. Their siren, their drug, their love...this is the greatest chain of them all. They have a strong desire to merge and yet are compelled to at least put up a token resistance.



    2. Means to an End
    The Sx/Sp places their hopes for fulfillment of their primary instinct (and ultimately, their survival) in their personal qualities and attributes: attractiveness, charisma, skills, abilities, success, wealth, status, etc. When things don't work out, this can leave an Sx/Sp feeling self-conscious. This gives Sx/Sp's an aire of self absorption and, in some cases, fatalism.

    The Sx/So places these hopes in their cunning, cleverness, and ability to make the right choices and decisions. When things don't work out, an Sx/So may wonder what they could have done differently to have more success. This makes Sx/So's come off as enterprising masters of their own destiny.

    Let's take seduction as an example: an Sx/Sp focuses on seeming desirable and attractive, an Sx/So focuses on saying the right things and acting the right way.



    3. Romantic Relationships
    Both Sexual types exhibit a push-and-pull dynamic. The Sx/Sp's version of this is the classic iteration: intense, passionate desire suddenly becomes too intense and Sx/Sp pulls away to protect themselves, only to have the desire return again.

    The Sx/So push-and-pull is an internal one: drawn in with some hesitation, drawn closer, maybe pull back a little, still drawn in. It doesn't look as extreme as the Sx/Sp dynamic because the Sx/So doesn't completely surrender to their desire.

    As a result, an Sx/Sp is going to be more all-or-none in relationships, either on out on the sand or drowning in the depths...possibly bouncing back-and-forth between the two with the tides. An Sx/So will be more balanced and stable in their relationships, preferring to wade in the shallows.

    Additionally, an Sx/So has a much greater problem with partners that seem clingy or smothering. This is encroaches too greatly on their freedom. An Sx/Sp won't have a problem with this in itself (and may even like it); their greater concern is the desirability of their partner. Extreme closeness with a confident and secure partner is Sx/Sp heaven, with an insecure partner it's hell.
    Last edited by Bumblyjack; 07-01-2012 at 04:36 AM. Reason: added note
    sodden, Airy, SuperNova85 and 34 others thanked this post.



  2. #2
    Type 4

    I'll be honest I felt a lot of kinship with the descriptions of the Sx/Sp variant, I am not sure if this is just because I am a 4 or not though. This could simply be 4 likeness crossing over. 4's may experience things differently then some of the other types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumblyjack View Post
    Sx/So's will not do this. Freedom is too precious to surrender, even to the object of their deepest affection. The Sx/So ideal is not to run away but to stand and fight, tearing down the walls and breaking all chains. Their siren, their drug, their love...this is the greatest chain of them all. They have a strong desire to merge and yet are compelled to at least put up a token resistance.
    I don't know if I necessarily agree with this. I think in terms of my sexual variant I want complete immersion at all times into my other or my creation and I am willing to become one with it because then it will inadvertently become me. I think that's the reason why I need the immersion and the merging because I need control of the experience and I need to feel that I can have access to the power and bond from the experience I am apart of. I don't want to feel separate from it because then I am not truly apart of it and cannot effect things with it. I need for it to become me and for me to become it.

    I think the subject of individuality or more accurately autonomy is an important one though. I actually do think I would give myself up to merge with my sexual desire, but I also believe that I would become resentful as well because it would eventually stop me from experiencing other things. If it was a person I would wonder if it was true unconditional love if they forced me to give up something simply to be with them and that resentment would build because I am not a possession and I cannot be owned. We can be together as one, as a unit but at that same time I never want limitations in my experiences and I would never dream of limiting my other from having those same experiences. That's not love.

    Let's take seduction as an example: an Sx/Sp focuses on seeming desirable and attractive, an Sx/So focuses on saying the right things and acting the right way.
    I disagree. I think the bolded comes across all sexual variants regardless of the second energy. Sexual types need to be attractive (or believe they are) in order to attract a mate. I imagine So types too would want to be attractive as their attractiveness would make their rank in the community more important.


    The Sx/So push-and-pull is an internal one: drawn in with some hesitation, drawn closer, maybe pull back a little, still drawn in. It doesn't look as extreme as the Sx/Sp dynamic because the Sx/So doesn't completely surrender to their desire.
    I agree with this to an extent. I think by the time I was in a relationship I wanted to be in I was already emotionally there. Then the person did something I didn't like, I pulled away just to see if it would matter to them and if they would notice. The token expression was that I was really angry or asserting some kind of independence. When in reality I was already made vulnerable and was already tied in and committed. I would also say that all or nothing tendencies could probably be applicable to all sexual sub types regardless.

    Additionally, an Sx/So has a much greater problem with partners that seem clingy or smothering. This is encroaches too greatly on their freedom.
    Yes. Although I am not sure how 2's might see this. But this is a huge deal for me. I would much rather be wanted, desired and longed for rather then be needed. That sends the impression that I owe something, have a responsibility or am in some way indebted to the person because they feel they can't be without me and I don't like having to deal with those expectations, feelings or emotions.

  3. #3
    Type 4w5

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    I need the immersion and the merging because I need control of the experience and I need to feel that I can have access to the power and bond from the experience I am apart of.
    This is the difference I am talking about here: Sx/So does not want to relinquish control but instead wants to channel and ride the energy. Sx/Sp wants to let go and be consumed by it.



    I think the subject of individuality or more accurately autonomy is an important one though. I actually do think I would give myself up to merge with my sexual desire, but I also believe that I would become resentful as well because it would eventually stop me from experiencing other things. If it was a person I would wonder if it was true unconditional love if they forced me to give up something simply to be with them and that resentment would build because I am not a possession and I cannot be owned. We can be together as one, as a unit but at that same time I never want limitations in my experiences and I would never dream of limiting my other from having those same experiences. That's not love.
    Love does place limitations on experiences. It doesn't do so directly, but it absolutely does so in an opportunity cost sort of way because there are many things you'll miss out on. Also, their love for you may not directly limit you, but your love for them will. If you really love someone, you will be conscious of and concerned about their needs. Attending to these needs places great limits on your experiences (ex. time, resources, fidelity, loyalty, energy, etc.). How do you feel about these limitations?



    I disagree. I think the bolded comes across all sexual variants regardless of the second energy. Sexual types need to be attractive (or believe they are) in order to attract a mate.
    Both types will want to be seductive through both image and behavior when trying to attract a mate, but I'm talking about which they ultimately see as the biggest difference-maker in whether or not it turns out well. Why did that girl reject me, was it because of my clothes and hair or because of what I said to her? (And relatedly, should I focus on dressing better or picking more charming topics of conversation?) Does that other girl like me because I'm friendly, interesting, and a good listener or because of my raw charisma, looks, and sense of humor?



    I agree with this to an extent. I think by the time I was in a relationship I wanted to be in I was already emotionally there. Then the person did something I didn't like, I pulled away just to see if it would matter to them and if they would notice. The token expression was that I was really angry or asserting some kind of independence. When in reality I was already made vulnerable and was already tied in and committed. I would also say that all or nothing tendencies could probably be applicable to all sexual sub types regardless.
    This is more of that Sx/So offering of a token resistance in order to seem like you are in control. Sx/Sp tends to give in more and then pull away more...and sometimes rinse, repeat ad infinitum.



    Yes. Although I am not sure how 2's might see this. But this is a huge deal for me. I would much rather be wanted, desired and longed for rather then be needed. That sends the impression that I owe something, have a responsibility or am in some way indebted to the person because they feel they can't be without me and I don't like having to deal with those expectations, feelings or emotions.
    I get an entirely different feeling from someone needing me. I don't feel a greater burden or greater stress. Their feelings and expectations don't trouble me either. I just find a partner with major insecurities very unattractive and unexciting. They just don't seem vibrant and full of the intense, exhilarating energy of an excited, optimistic, enthusiastic, and confident partner. I want to soar in the clouds; consequently, I'm attracted to a spirit like a hot air balloon, not a lead anchor.
    sleeper, ImminentThunder, Loveternity and 2 others thanked this post.

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  5. #4
    Type 8

    I'm not sure what I think about this. Keep in mind that different enneagram types in and of themselves have different motivations in life. A sx/so type 3 like myself will not necessarily act or treat relationships the exact same way as say a sx/so type 9 would. How someone with a variant stacking will act does depend on his type in my opinion. There will be some broad similarities between people of different types that share the same variant stacking, yes, but I don't believe you mentioned those broad similarities. It's not easy to simplify it in the manner in which you tried to simplify it. I personally do not really identify with sx/so description you provided. In some ways, it could pass, but for the most part... meh.

    Issue 1: I give my partner everything I've got. I do immerse myself in the relationship fully, and I'm not afraid of missing out on anything. What could be greater than having one loyal, binding friendship to last the test of time? And, I hate to break it to you, but sx/sp people also have walls and can be quite resistant.


    Issue 2: I don't like every close person in my life to be a clinger, but I have no problem with being around a partner who wants to give me most of his/her time. I enjoy that time and crave it. Who better to share most of your time with than your partner in crime? :P


    Issue 3: I very much so have an all-or-nothing attitude, but that has nothing to do with lack of stability in the relationship. I think it actually makes the bond stronger. I need intensity, I need communication, I need honesty, and I need trust. Give me your everything because I will give you my everything. It is only fair that my partner gives me his all since I give my all. I give exactly what I want to get in this aspect. Giving it your all is the epitomy of dedication.
    ImminentThunder, n2freedom, Nienna and 4 others thanked this post.

  6. #5
    Type 4w5

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Face View Post
    Issue 1: I give my partner everything I've got. I do immerse myself in the relationship fully, and I'm not afraid of missing out on anything. What could be greater than having one loyal, binding friendship to last the test of time?
    Issue 3: I very much so have an all-or-nothing attitude, but that has nothing to do with lack of stability in the relationship. I think it actually makes the bond stronger. I need intensity, I need communication, I need honesty, and I need trust. Give me your everything because I will give you my everything. It is only fair that my partner gives me his all since I give my all. I give exactly what I want to get in this aspect. Giving it your all is the epitomy of dedication.
    I'm talking about losing yourself so much in the merging that you lose your sense of self, even your convictions. Tell me you'd ever lose your convictions in a relationship or in a cause.



    And, I hate to break it to you, but sx/sp people also have walls and can be quite resistant.
    I explicitly discussed the push-and-pull behavior of Sx/Sp's. This is so pronounced because of how alarming it can be to experience losing oneself to such an extent so suddenly.

  7. #6
    Type 4w5

    I recall Clapton's (a 9w1 sx/sp) anguished declaration of love:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Clapton
    Dear Layla,

    For nothing more than the pleasures past, I would sacrifice my family, my god, and my own existence, and still you will not move. I am at the end of my mind, I cannot go back and there is nothing in tomorrow (save you) that can attract me beyond today. I have listened to the wind, I have watched the dark brooding clouds, I have felt the earth beneath me for a sign, a gesture, but there is only silence. Why do you hesitate, am I a poor lover, am I ugly, am I too weak, too strong, do you know why? If you want me, take me, I am yours...If you don't want me, please break the spell that binds me. "To cage a wild animal is a sin, to tame him is divine." My love is yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bumblyjack View Post
    I'm talking about losing yourself so much in the merging that you lose your sense of self, even your convictions. Tell me you'd ever lose your convictions in a relationship or in a cause.
    Suppose if your conviction is basically following your instinct, to merge with someone or something, and maybe what they offer can take you places? ('Merging' may be more suited for 9 sexuals.) I don't believe that merging may make you lose your sense of self-- like those sheep who don't know anything other than their group creed. Perhaps it actually enhances yourself; who is the one who feels the euphoria of being with another? Where do your boundaries touch? You are you, and I am I, and that is fine with me.
    susurration, transformations and Bumblyjack thanked this post.

  8. #7
    Type 4

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumblyjack View Post
    Love does place limitations on experiences. It doesn't do so directly, but it absolutely does so in an opportunity cost sort of way because there are many things you'll miss out on. Also, their love for you may not directly limit you, but your love for them will.
    I don't agree with this, although I do know others who agree with this belief I don't believe I would completely change who I am fundamentally simply for a relationship, even if it was important to me I would need to feel that I had the ability to make choices and I hope that someone would want that same thing for me. I don't believe love without freedom is truly love.

    If you really love someone, you will be conscious of and concerned about their needs. Attending to these needs places great limits on your experiences (ex. time, resources, fidelity, loyalty, energy, etc.). How do you feel about these limitations?
    I again just don't believe or agree with such a statement. I would never ask a person to deny themselves something just to make me happy and I would expect for that same courtesy to be given back to me.

    I would never ask a person to give up their job, decline a promotion, not have a friendship with someone or not do certain activities simply because I want them to.

    Again I don't think that's true love. It's control. Real love comes from letting other people make their own choices and truly wanting them to be happy in all ways. I think that's the problem sometimes with the way some view love, it's not all encompassing in that way. It doesn't magically mean you will never have needs or that you cease to exist outside of the other person.

    Just because you love someone doesn't mean that you are going to have all your needs met by that one person. It's simply too much to expect that one person is going to fulfill all your needs emotionally, physically, spiritually and mentally every single day for the rest of your life. You eventually will need other people to find those needs. Just because you love that person doesn't automatically mean that you stop being who you are or that you stop growing in order to be with them. I believe that love should enable you to grow and become better. Not stunt you so that you will never find anything else worthwhile outside of that person. That again isn't love. Love doesn't limit or at least I believe it shouldn't.

    Does that other girl like me because I'm friendly, interesting, and a good listener or because of my raw charisma, looks, and sense of humor?
    Okay, I guess I can agree with that, the commerce may be different between So an Sp. Although I personally think that can overlap. I don't think they are really that separate. I still believe that the sx variant being in control would probably look at all of their lackings to find a solution not just regulate it to one or the other. Although at this point that could just be nitpicking.
    Paradigm, Bumblyjack, Bluity and 1 others thanked this post.

  9. #8
    Type 4w5

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    I again just don't believe or agree with such a statement. I would never ask a person to deny themselves something just to make me happy and I would expect for that same courtesy to be given back to me.
    I'm not talking about someone asking you to deny yourself. I don't agree with doing that either. I'm talking about you voluntarily denying yourself for someone else (i.e. it being your idea and you doing it willingly and eagerly).



    I don't agree with this, although I do know others who agree with this belief I don't believe I would completely change who I am fundamentally simply for a relationship, even if it was important to me I would need to feel that I had the ability to make choices and I hope that someone would want that same thing for me. I don't believe love without freedom is truly love.
    1. Of course you don't agree with this, no Sx/So would. An Sx/Sp would. That's the distinction I'm making here and what I mean about losing oneself and giving up freedom, identity, and well...everything. An Sx/So wants to merge but doesn't want and will not submit to total surrender. An Sx/Sp does and will if the allure and temptation are great enough, but they also fear doing so.

    2. I would change "I would completely change who I am fundamentally simply for a relationship" to "I would completely change who I am fundamentally when I'm in a relationship". When an Sx/Sp is in a close relationship it will happen whether they want it to or not. This contributes greatly to the push-and-pull because it's very alarming to be so utterly enslaved and ensnared...and yet it's incredibly exhilarating as well.

  10. #9
    Unknown

    sx/so: careless, exhibitionistic, against the norm, hot and cold, interested in and likes to connect everything to extremes: rich and poor, life and death, beautiful and ugly etc, doesn't like things that are average or in balance
    sx/sp(compared to sx/so): more composed, needs more security/comfort, more materialistic, more introverted, more precise

    it all depends of emneagram and the strenght of the variants of course
    wisdom, Arrow and INTPaul thanked this post.

  11. #10

    Quote Originally Posted by Bumblyjack View Post
    (This was a comment of mine on another site, but I decided to post it here for discussion.)


    Note: These are relative comparisons and they are exaggerated for comparative clarity.



    1. Freedom
    Sx/Sp's believe in freedom. And they don't just believe in it as an abstract concept, but in reality. They don't want to be held down, confined, restricted, or contained. But then there's the problem of their siren, their drug, their love...an Sx/Sp would sell their soul to merge with their object of desire (be it a person, idea, or whatever). They will tirelessly fight off all other chains placed on them, but they will willingly don the handcuffs binding them to their love. The Sx/Sp ideal is to run away with their love and leave all the world behind.

    Sx/So's will not do this. Freedom is too precious to surrender, even to the object of their deepest affection. The Sx/So ideal is not to run away but to stand and fight, tearing down the walls and breaking all chains. Their siren, their drug, their love...this is the greatest chain of them all. They have a strong desire to merge and yet are compelled to at least put up a token resistance.



    2. Means to an End
    The Sx/Sp places their hopes for fulfillment of their primary instinct (and ultimately, their survival) in their personal qualities and attributes: attractiveness, charisma, skills, abilities, success, wealth, status, etc. When things don't work out, this can leave an Sx/Sp feeling self-conscious. This gives Sx/Sp's an aire of self absorption and, in some cases, fatalism.

    The Sx/So places these hopes in their cunning, cleverness, and ability to make the right choices and decisions. When things don't work out, an Sx/So may wonder what they could have done differently to have more success. This makes Sx/So's come off as enterprising masters of their own destiny.

    Let's take seduction as an example: an Sx/Sp focuses on seeming desirable and attractive, an Sx/So focuses on saying the right things and acting the right way.



    3. Romantic Relationships
    Both Sexual types exhibit a push-and-pull dynamic. The Sx/Sp's version of this is the classic iteration: intense, passionate desire suddenly becomes too intense and Sx/Sp pulls away to protect themselves, only to have the desire return again.

    The Sx/So push-and-pull is an internal one: drawn in with some hesitation, drawn closer, maybe pull back a little, still drawn in. It doesn't look as extreme as the Sx/Sp dynamic because the Sx/So doesn't completely surrender to their desire.

    As a result, an Sx/Sp is going to be more all-or-none in relationships, either on out on the sand or drowning in the depths...possibly bouncing back-and-forth between the two with the tides. An Sx/So will be more balanced and stable in their relationships, preferring to wade in the shallows.

    Additionally, an Sx/So has a much greater problem with partners that seem clingy or smothering. This is encroaches too greatly on their freedom. An Sx/Sp won't have a problem with this in itself (and may even like it); their greater concern is the desirability of their partner. Extreme closeness with a confident and secure partner is Sx/Sp heaven, with an insecure partner it's hell.
    This is a pretty solid comparison, although I think a lot of what I relate to in this is also because I'm a core 7.


     
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