4w5 or 9w8

4w5 or 9w8

Hello Guest! Sign up to join the discussion below...
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11
Thank Tree4Thanks

This is a discussion on 4w5 or 9w8 within the Enneagram Personality Theory Forum forums, part of the Personality Type Forums category; Hello! At first I thought I was a 9w8. I relate to it quite a lot. But then I redid ...

  1. #1

    4w5 or 9w8

    Hello!

    At first I thought I was a 9w8. I relate to it quite a lot. But then I redid the test and came out with 4w5.

    I definitely would have tested as a 4w5 a few years back, without question. I have grown a lot since then, taken a step back and tried to function in "normal" society. I got a job in the care industry which satisfies me to a minor degree, as I know the job is useful. But it is not my "dream" job. I have always wanted to have a creative job. I did Art at University.

    I am not sure if I am truly a 4w5 and I use 9w8 to "normalise" myself. By normalise I mean; not communicate my deep feelings ever and save them for the hours of writing I do every night. Am I a "mature" 4w5 that is lying to herself and saying she just wants peace and quiet (nothingness) to placate those feelings of creative failure?

    Or have I truly become 9w8 now? Society has finally bended me to its will?

    Lol

    Does any one know the core differences between the two types?

    It would be very helpful :)



  2. #2

    I could see that. Both these types have a flavor of moving against, at an undercurrent sub-conscious level. Stepping back for a second though, let's get fundamental. There's moving against for a means of ego-peace/clarity, and moving against based upon a construct of ego-broken/specialness.

    While ending up in the care industry itself is indicative of little, in this instance it might help to draw some distinction between these two in particular. It's not that 4w5 types are incapable of care/caring, but it's the level to sustain it, occupationally, that might shed light. I see 9's as being more apt to compartmentalize the "hands on" connected-ness of this sort of endeavor.

    You know, 9's are very creative too. Perhaps more so.

    As a sidebar of interest, both E types are almost diametrically opposed on the circle. These two are beginning to wormhole, speaking in abstracts.
    Last edited by Full_fathom_4; 02-19-2018 at 03:50 PM.

  3. #3
    Type 9w8

    It's better to consider first what your core might be and disregard the wing as the wing does not offer fundamental motivations and compensations, only tendencies that "flavour" the core. Palmer, Naranjo, and Almaas do not consider the wing, preferring instead to focus on the core, and when Maitri does it she leaves the material right at the very end. Riso-Hudson is unusual in this regard as their material regarding the wing is front and center.

    I am both heavily 9w8 (core) and 4w5 (fix) and have typed this way since 2014 so feel equipped to answer this question. Maitri writes that the core fixation of 9 is indolence and that of 4 is melancholy, the melancholy that comes with perpetual longing for something absent. 9 indolence manifests among other things as an inertia of body and mind; once you get started on something, it's hard to stop, and once you stop, it's hard to start again. (Exercise notwithstanding!) 9 indolence is generally low energy levels and a clinging to emotional states. Outwardly, this can be seen as emotional stability. Meanwhile 4s are perpetually longing for the desired Other, and prone to adoring idols. They self-dramatise endlessly and identify with their suffering; once the object of their desire is in reach, it loses its shine, and 4s unconsciously self-sabotage in order to long for something new, as it is in this state they are most (paradoxically) content. 9s also long and 4s can also be lazy but not for most of the time; the psyche of 9s works to minimise inner turbulence and 4s end up criticising themselves harshly and feeling ashamed. More about the 4/9 superego in the next paragraph. I find 4ish emotional states constantly unfurling, like a blood red rose or great work of tragedy, whereas my emotional states as a 9 like an ocean that constantly rises until my psyche tells me 'enough is enough' and the ocean becomes a pond. I do consider myself more emotional than the average 9.

    Both types tend towards selfless compassion, emotional depth, a search for meaning, and a withdrawn nature. Both types also tend to have low self-esteem when unhealthy. The difference between 4 withdrawal and 9 withdrawal is 4s withdraw to maintain their individuality. 9s withdraw to maintain the peace, whether it be the environment's or their own. As a 9 I find I talk less in groups (withdraw) when I feel invisible. It's a self-confirming fallacy and common struggle for 9s, less so for 4s. Maitri writes 4s withdraw too to avoid the shame of being seen. They become reserved, composed, private, constrained. The flavour of 9 withdrawal would be agreeable, accommodating, stubborn, like talking to a brick wall. The difference between 4 low self-esteem and 9 low self-esteem is the manifestation of their superego. As Maitri writes, the 4 superego is clear and endlessly harsh, critiquing her endlessly on matters of her aesthetic (image). Her internal ideal of who she must be seems far and unattainable; she despairs darkly and hopelessly. Meanwhile the 9 superego is fuzzy as she 'tunes out' the harshest edges of what she knows to be disappointing about herself. She turns to idle distractions to escape the underlying conviction that she is not lovable or doesn't belong. Underlying all this is a sort of naivete about her situation. 4 low-esteem is wallowing, while 9 low self-esteem is self-minimising. Anecdotally 4s with low self-esteem have a dramatism about themselves, while 9s appear small. Dramatic voices, small voices. Both can appear somewhat nervous.
    nep2une and ShadowedWords thanked this post.

  4. Remove Advertisements
    PersonalityCafe.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4

    WOW this is lovely. Thank you to you both, for taking the time to write all this. It's wonderful to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Full_fathom_4 View Post
    I could see that. Both these types have a flavor of moving against, at an undercurrent sub-conscious level. Stepping back for a second though, let's get fundamental. There's moving against for a means of ego-peace/clarity, and moving against based upon a construct of ego-broken/specialness.
    I like to use my withdrawal to positive effect. I withdraw to pour my thoughts into writing, which is highly cathartic for me. I also seem to write a lot about finding peace. Which I imagine is a 9 trait. But then there have been things that people have said regarding my creative “work” years and years ago that still pop into my head and make me wonder why I even try at all. But I guess that is natural. Obviously not every time I withdraw I am productive. Sometimes I will do absolutely nothing of any use. I have a serious issue with procrastination. I am getting better, though. It's been a long process to successfully STOP procrastinating, once I feel it starting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Full_fathom_4 View Post
    While ending up in the care industry itself is indicative of little, in this instance it might help to draw some distinction between these two in particular. It's not that 4w5 types are incapable of care/caring, but it's the level to sustain it, occupationally, that might shed light. I see 9's as being more apt to compartmentalize the "hands on" connected-ness of this sort of endeavor.
    I work in the office of a care company. I am not a carer. I have so much admiration for the carers, as personally I don’t think this is something I could do for a stranger. Though, I could (and do) do it for a loved one.
    The thought of staying in this job role forever brings me a lot of fear. It makes me feel that I have wasted my so called “talents”… Imagining my life without being able to express myself creatively is incomprehensible. I would rather not exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Full_fathom_4 View Post
    You know, 9's are very creative too. Perhaps more so.

    As a sidebar of interest, both E types are almost diametrically opposed on the circle. These two are beginning to wormhole, speaking in abstracts.
    I think I have fallen into that wormhole lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by owldaze View Post
    Maitri writes that the core fixation of 9 is indolence and that of 4 is melancholy, the melancholy that comes with perpetual longing for something absent. 9 indolence manifests among other things as an inertia of body and mind; once you get started on something, it's hard to stop, and once you stop, it's hard to start again. (Exercise notwithstanding!) 9 indolence is generally low energy levels and a clinging to emotional states. Outwardly, this can be seen as emotional stability. Meanwhile 4s are perpetually longing for the desired Other, and prone to adoring idols. They self-dramatise endlessly and identify with their suffering; once the object of their desire is in reach, it loses its shine, and 4s unconsciously self-sabotage in order to long for something new, as it is in this state they are most (paradoxically) content.
    With this I relate to type 4, though I don’t express the “drama” outwardly. It’s only turned over in my head multiple times or written down (where no one can see). I don't think people would describe me as dramatic. Drama actually really irritates me. Though people would probably say I complain a lot if I'm tired/ill.
    Though 9 also seems relevant, as people have said I seem quite emotionally stable, and I would agree on particular occasions. Sometimes I really can be calm and ready to deal with anything. Other times, I really cannot handle anything. I become extremely tired, moany, and fixated on sleeping.
    But in relation to 4, I have observed myself secretly self-sabotaging relationships that I want to end. I usually start doing it a few weeks before the break up. I start being less thoughtful with my actions/words. Though, the reason I do this is so that when I finally do end it, they are not hurt/don’t argue with me because I was “never that great anyway”. So I guess that’s 9 thinking.
    The only guys I have had serious crushes on, are the ones I never got. The guys I have had a relationship with, I never had that “butterflies in stomach” sensation which is basically what I live for. I also get that feeling from good music, films and art. I day dream an AWFUL lot. Just a really unnatural amount lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by owldaze View Post
    9s also long and 4s can also be lazy but not for most of the time; the psyche of 9s works to minimise inner turbulence and 4s end up criticising themselves harshly and feeling ashamed. I find 4ish emotional states constantly unfurling, like a blood red rose or great work of tragedy, whereas my emotional states as a 9 like an ocean that constantly rises until my psyche tells me 'enough is enough' and the ocean becomes a pond. I do consider myself more emotional than the average 9.

    Both types tend towards selfless compassion, emotional depth, a search for meaning, and a withdrawn nature. Both types also tend to have low self-esteem when unhealthy. The difference between 4 withdrawal and 9 withdrawal is 4s withdraw to maintain their individuality. 9s withdraw to maintain the peace, whether it be the environment's or their own.
    Here again I relate to both 4 and 9.
    4, because I can’t seem to tell myself to “stop” the emotion. I usually just transform how I’m feeling by accepting it, but still being unhappy. That feeling of longing is always, always there.*
    9, because I always aim to be more at peace with myself. I remember a time that was particularly stressful, I spent some time thinking about how on earth I was going to get through it. I felt that everything was like a tornado – but all tornados have an eye where it is silent and peaceful. I felt that “eye” was in me, and whenever things are going terribly, I can pull from that stable place of peace. Obviously it works only to a degree, to settle my inner turmoil, but it doesn’t prevent me from being sad. Which I guess is a good thing, as its important to go through those emotions.
    I struggle with saying I have an “identity”… Identity has always been a wishy washy subject for me. What defines who you are? Culture, environment… They are not factual things, only esoteric. So in theory who “I am” is just a reflection of strange revelations within the human condition. Nothing permanent.
    I do not try to create or adhere to an identity for myself. I am more interested in finding out what is natural to me, what my REAL self is, under all the layers we accumulate throughout life. What I would find is probably just a void.

    Quote Originally Posted by owldaze View Post
    As a 9 I find I talk less in groups (withdraw) when I feel invisible. It's a self-confirming fallacy and common struggle for 9s, less so for 4s. Maitri writes 4s withdraw too to avoid the shame of being seen. They become reserved, composed, private, constrained. The flavour of 9 withdrawal would be agreeable, accommodating, stubborn, like talking to a brick wall. The difference between 4 low self-esteem and 9 low self-esteem is the manifestation of their superego. As Maitri writes, the 4 superego is clear and endlessly harsh, critiquing her endlessly on matters of her aesthetic (image). Her internal ideal of who she must be seems far and unattainable; she despairs darkly and hopelessly. Meanwhile the 9 superego is fuzzy as she 'tunes out' the harshest edges of what she knows to be disappointing about herself. She turns to idle distractions to escape the underlying conviction that she is not lovable or doesn't belong. Underlying all this is a sort of naivete about her situation. 4 low-esteem is wallowing, while 9 low self-esteem is self-minimising. Anecdotally 4s with low self-esteem have a dramatism about themselves, while 9s appear small. Dramatic voices, small voices. Both can appear somewhat nervous.
    Here I think I relate more to the type 9. Especially where you have described the fuzzy superego and “tuning out”. I experience dissociation occasionally. I do also occasionally turn to idle distraction to zone out. I could watch youtube videos all day, if I am feeling depressed. It’s doesn’t make me feel even a tiny bit better, though. In reference to the type 4 superego, I don’t really care what my aesthetic (image) looks like. I have no interest in how others perceive me. I am more interested in being able to express myself in accordance to my true self. In my writing, I am always trying to dig deeper in my self, as if I am seeking and telling a truth about humanity as a whole.
    If I experience low self esteem, I have the urge to hide, to run away. When people ask what super power would you choose, I always choose invisibility. It would be amazing to watch all sorts of human life without them seeing me.

    I think, if there were such a thing, I would be 9w4, where I was once a 4w9. Can you do that with the enneagram? lol. It’s like I am both types, and they use each other, lean against each other. Or are twisted together like a DNA helix.

    Though, looking at this, it seems type 9 is more relevant to me. I do more 9 things than 4 things. Even writing this is pissing off my 9 side, because it seems so self indulgent, but it's really satisfying my 4 side, which is lapping up the self observations...

    Thank you guys :)

  6. #5

    Both are soooo different, Im surprised your confused. A test is taken to show initial type but after that if you read more into it, you shouldn't have to worry at all what type you are. 4w5s and 9s are introverted and both can be dreamy, but 4s daydream about their uniqueness and star qualities, 9s dream about worlds or fantastical things sometimes completely unrelated to them. 4s seek identity but actually feel their feelings very intensely (anger, sexuality, happiness, joy, depression, sadness) and know what they want/enjoy whereas 9s have a much more sleepier exterior and can feel undecided about decisions/choosing to follow someone else's agenda to keep the peace. Both also have differing energies, 4s are feelers and 9s are gut types. 2 completely different type and persona

  7. #6

    Both are soooo different, Im surprised your confused.
    Saying both are so different doesn't help. The descriptions often don't mention the deepness of 9s and this is what causes them to mistype as 4s.
    Last edited by bundleofraindrops; 02-25-2018 at 04:00 PM.

  8. #7

    OP, try this enneagram test. Most enneagram tests seem to be geared more towards typing the 9w1s correctly.

    h t t p //personalitycafe com/enneagram personality theory forum 1217410 new enneagram test katherine fauvre

    (I can't seem to post the link because i'm a new member but put h t t p together and add - to all the other spaces and add .html at the end of it all.)

  9. #8

    Quote Originally Posted by singinbluebird View Post
    Both are soooo different, Im surprised your confused. A test is taken to show initial type but after that if you read more into it, you shouldn't have to worry at all what type you are. 4w5s and 9s are introverted and both can be dreamy, but 4s daydream about their uniqueness and star qualities, 9s dream about worlds or fantastical things sometimes completely unrelated to them. 4s seek identity but actually feel their feelings very intensely (anger, sexuality, happiness, joy, depression, sadness) and know what they want/enjoy whereas 9s have a much more sleepier exterior and can feel undecided about decisions/choosing to follow someone else's agenda to keep the peace. Both also have differing energies, 4s are feelers and 9s are gut types. 2 completely different type and persona


    They can't be that different, as the test is literally telling me I am a type 9 but also 4w5. Maybe the test is flawed or perhaps people are more "rounded" than you have considered?
    I daydream often, but about all things. I do have strong feelings but those strong feelings overwhelm me at times and leads me to have a fixation on sleeping. I have creative desires I want to fulfil but I also deeply wish to keep the peace. It is an internal battle that is often hard for me to deal with.
    On the one hand, I want everyone to fuck off and leave me alone so I can focus ALL my energy into writing, but also on the other hand, I don't want to hurt anyone by telling them to leave me alone. My absolute wish is to have a house in the middle of nowhere so I can write all day.

  10. #9

    If you're into the Enneagram for the long haul, and want to type yourself accurately, as well as gain deep insights into your type and be able to type others, I strongly recommend purchasing a few books on the E. There's just too much low quality information available online (due to no quality control) and if you look up some discussions on this forum you'll notice that like half the people (if not more) have changed their types since then, so you can't even rely on these discussions.

    Enneagram tests, same as MBTI ones, don't give accurate results 100% of the time and it's only with thorough research that some find their true type. Once you learn more about 9s and 4s you'll be asking yourself how did you ever mistake them for each other - the two are so different.

    A great place to start is a book written by Enneagram Institute teachers, Riso & Hudson, called the "Wisdom of the Enneagram". It has plenty of personal stories, as well as giving short self-assessment quizzes and an intro to the enneagram theory (it's important to learn the basics): https://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-Enneag.../dp/0553378201 Sandra Maitri's book has been very much on point as well: https://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Dim...eywords=maitri.

  11. #10

    I'm sorry for not being as clear as I wanted to be. By saying that 9 is a gut type and 4 is a heart type, what I'm trying to say is both types operate completely differently and will appear very different. The qualities they do share however, is that both can be introverted, feel shy, want a lot of time alone, are extremely creative, both can be strong empaths/compassionate, both can be loving and affectionate (only some qualities they can share). But 4s operate from their heart and feelings and 9s are gut types, responsive and function from their body/feelings/lack of. 4s also create and daydream, but from a individual point and its often selfish and about their past, hurt, pain, love, romance, star quality. 9s are also highly creative and daydream, but as you say, you daydream about all sorts of things (a 4 would never say that, everything is personal). 4s who want time alone will not feel guilty saying so,or push others away deliberately to be alone( 4s can be vain, self indulgent, self absorb, demanding). 9s are accommodating even if they feel otherwise they can also be stubborn but ultimately seek peace. 4s will stir the boat to feel alive or excited. Again, all people are different in their own ways and wings determine how we act in public, but our type is us when alone/how we truly are inside.

    That said, I do believe we can all relate to all the types but our core is our main type. Ive been studying enneagram for a decade, I highly recommend reading more into it =). I am always learning new thing as well =)


     
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. [Enneagram Type 4] You are a Type 4 with a 5 wing: "The Bohemian" Your tritype is 4w5, 5w4, 9w8. In en
    By Persian in forum Type 4 Forum - The Individualist
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 02-17-2016, 06:15 PM
  2. [ENFP] I found out my that my trifix 4w5, 7w6, 9w8...
    By Ella_Wilde in forum ENFP Forum - The Inspirers
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-10-2014, 07:15 AM
  3. [INFJ] Male INFJ 9w8/4w5
    By Vishnushiva in forum INFJ Forum - The Protectors
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-09-2013, 11:35 PM
  4. [Enneagram Type 3] I am a 7w6 4w5 9w8. Do you think I would do well in a sales career?
    By Dania in forum Type 3 Forum - The Achiever
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-26-2012, 02:03 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:09 PM.
Information provided on the site is meant to complement and not replace any advice or information from a health professional.
© 2014 PersonalityCafe
 

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0