Behavior is directly connected to and reflective of inner experience

Behavior is directly connected to and reflective of inner experience

Hello Guest! Sign up to join the discussion below...
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 34
Thank Tree32Thanks

This is a discussion on Behavior is directly connected to and reflective of inner experience within the Enneagram Personality Theory Forum forums, part of the Personality Type Forums category; There is always a reason for why people end up acting the way they do, and you shitters are way ...

  1. #1
    Type 8w7

    Behavior is directly connected to and reflective of inner experience

    There is always a reason for why people end up acting the way they do, and you shitters are way too ready to throw behavior under the bus instead of learning of it as the legitimate indicator of inner psychological and biological happenings that it is, which in turn result in a certain kind of lived experience. As the reverse, the lived experiences described as definitions for certain types are a direct reflection of biologically grounded personality traits and mean shit like extraverted Fives and introverted Sevens or Eights are incongruent, contradictory nonsense that reflects the person's own wishful thinking and imaginations than any real understanding of human psychology.
    Last edited by Brains; 01-12-2019 at 10:26 PM.
    sucrilhos, ElectricSlime, Hexcoder and 1 others thanked this post.



  2. #2

    Ur WrONg iT’S aLL AbOut FeArS ANd mOTIvaTiONS BRainS yOu toOL

  3. #3
    Type 7w8

    Getting some popcorn:)
    Please carry on...!

  4. Remove Advertisements
    PersonalityCafe.com
    Advertisements
     

  5. #4

    so common sense why say?

  6. #5
    Type 9w8

    It's all logical but why extraverted person can't be 5?

  7. #6
    Type 8w7

    Quote Originally Posted by Allana View Post
    It's all logical but why extraverted person can't be 5?
    One of the core experiences of Fivishness is that the world is intrusive, overwhelming, that it asks too much of the person, that they may be depleted by social contact, and so on. In Character & Neurosis, Naranjo characterizes the type with the words "pathological detachment".

    On the academic psychology side, what has been found is that some people are more sociable than others, and that the more extreme examples seem to have a huge amount of energy, while others seem far more limited in that capacity. The classic idea of introversion and extraversion seems to pan out in reality. But what drives these differences, mechanically? What makes some sociable and talkative, others not. Why do some people climb mountains and others don't?

    Turns out, it's reward sensitivity. That is, for any living creature to take action, there has to first be some evaluationary process that says it's worth it to do. You can liken the decision process to a hedonic calculation with gains and costs. Extraversion, in the modern, non-Jungian understanding, is the degree to which we get gains in pleasure or satisfaction from rewarding things we've acquired and in how strongly we respond to cues for getting that satisfaction that are presented to us. That is, it's how much we like things and want things. Extraversion is the trait most linked to positive emotionality, since desire and enjoyment are what drive us to go after rewards. (studies show that extraverts eg. report being happier and enjoy seeing pictures of puppies more)

    From this, it's easy to see that all else being equal the costs of doing things are roughly the same for two people, but the person high in Extraversion would end up deciding many more things are profitable, while the person low on Extraversion would have a narrower range of concerns - there'd simply be less things that'd get him enough to outweigh the costs.

    There are several interesting things to be noted from this:

    One, Jung was wrong. The opposite of Extraversion's outward-orientedness is not a deep inward-orientedness (that is a separate personality trait), but rather simply a low degree of outward orientation. An introvert who's low in the drive to contemplate can simply end up collecting Turtles comics or something of the sort. Extraversion-Introversion makes nice sense when you're playing around with concepts, but ultimately Extraversion-Detachment is a better name for the axis.

    Two, extraverts are by no means necessarily shallow and unintellectual - if anything, it's the opposite, as Extraversion has a positive correlation with both aspects of Openness/Intellect, the personality trait that's linked to aesthetic sensitivity, a desire to experience strong emotions, a vivid imagination, creativity, tendency to psychosis, an intellectual personal style including the drive to invest effort into analyzing things in depth, and to some extent raw intellectual ability itself. (Fives and Fours are characterized by both low Extraversion and high Openness/Intellect)

    Three, social anxiety is not a form of introversion - an emotionally stable introvert simply isn't interested in social interaction because it is unprofitable. Anxiety is an active form of negative emotion, not the lack of positive emotion that characterizes low Extraversion.




    Now, if we look at the kind of experience that'd characterize high Extraversion, we'd see that it'd mean seeing the world as full of worthwhile things to do - worthwhile enough to actually do, not just think yea those are great but I can't be arsed, lots of positive emotion, socializing, and so on. This is completely against the Five profile of the world being a drain that's too costly to participate in. Of course, Fives will experience times when they feel everything is abundant, or feel things to be so in certain environments, but a dispositional tendency to experience the world as full of reward, joy and satisfaction is not a Fivish thing - we'd be talking of a Seven, Three or an Eight, or perhaps a Six if they're more emotionally volatile than emotionally stable.
    Last edited by Brains; 01-13-2019 at 02:43 PM.
    Bad Bunny, VagrantFarce, ElectricSlime and 4 others thanked this post.

  8. #7
    Type 1w2


    I generally agree with the spirit of what's being said here. Also, there are some obviously outlandish parallels between Enneagram and MBTI, for example Claudio Naranjo correlating INTJ with Type 7 that show that the Enneagram authors tend to take these dichotomies only at face value. I don't think most of the enneagram or MBTI authors are particularly versed in each others' concepts or theories, and a lot of the subtlety is lost. There is also certainly a lot of MBTI baked into enneagram descriptions.

    All that said, I think we have 3 or 4 "Extraversions" and "Introversions" running into each other here. The tricky part is separating what is literally said vs. what was meant. There's the OCEAN version, the Jung version, the MBTI version, and the conventional/dictionary version. I think they all have different degrees of linkage/relevance to the theories we're discussing, and in some cases may even be independent of one another.

    Type 9 is a great example of this - by definition, if we took everything literally Type 9 would be only Extraverts, since the basis of the type is "outward orientation" and "merging with the outside" and we know this isn't the case.

    Far from a Jung expert, however I've always seen Jungian "Extraversion" and "Introversion" as qualities of a Function, not so much as qualities of an individual person. So when we say "Extraverted Thinking," what's meant is that the orientation of the Thinking could be described as being outwardly-directed. And as to whether a "Te Dom" is also conventionally, OCEAN, or Enneagram-wise "extraverted" there's probably a strong likelihood they are all of the above, but it's a connection not a hard and fast trait.

    As stated, I generally agree some type combinations are so unlikely they might as well be nixed as a possibility. That said, I feel much better using that rational to explain why certain MBTI/Enneagram combinations DO exist more commonly than others, rather than why weird ones CANNOT exist. Authors across theories have not done enough fleshing out amongst themselves, and as a result there is no hard-and-fast way to say that combinations cannot exist. ENTJ is a great example here - no, we'd probably never see an ENTJ Type 4, however there certainly are ENTJ 3w4's, and they should in fact show traits of Type 4.


    Allin thanked this post.

  9. #8
    Type 5

    You raise some valid points, especially the extroversion vs. detachment issue. I do have to disagree with your statements about extraversion, specifically where you wrote, "Extraversion has a positive correlation with both aspects of Openness/Intellect, the personality trait that's linked to aesthetic sensitivity, a desire to experience strong emotions, a vivid imagination, creativity, tendency to psychosis, an intellectual personal style including the drive to invest effort into analyzing things in depth, and to some extent raw intellectual ability itself. (Fives and Fours are characterized by both low Extraversion and high Openness/Intellect)" There are many introverted individuals, including Fives, who are very open to new experiences, who experience very strong emotions, are very creative and have a vivid imagination - it's just that Fives tend to be reserved about expressing their emotions which they feel very deeply indeed. There are many creative Fives, from fellow writers and artists and musicians to actors, dancers etcetera. And when one looks at the 5w4 types, that's when you definitely find Fives who have these creative, imaginative personalities/characters.

  10. #9
    Type 6w5

    Not directly related to the thread but you should take developmental psychology into account when it comes to personality. I do think Jungian personality theories are way too focused on putting people in boxes rather than trying to understand how a person becomes who they are. I don't actually study psychology or anything, but I am aware of the attachment theory - it's basically about how your upbringing affects your behaviour and worldview, which includes how social you are, optimism, how anxious you are, self image, your confidence to explore, etc. (here's a video;)
     
    .


    Once you get to know people or take a look at your own past experience, you will realise that the theory has a lot of truth to it. People who are the "type 5" enneatype (withdrawn, cerebral, detached, whatever) could be related to some kind of insecure attachment.
    Hung Rong Wong thanked this post.

  11. #10
    Type 8w7

    @Figure

    The main thrust of the comment wasn't quite about how some type combinations are impossible - that's more of a consequence than anything. It was more to vent my annoyance at the pervasive culture around these typological communities that behavior doesn't matter and is unrelated to what goes on inside, when that is not so, at all. What goes on inside physiologically leads to experience and that leads to behavior. It needs some nuance in interpretation, but not much else. Evaluating people's personal character is about ten million times simpler than the witch doctors of the forums would have you believe, yet still rich in nuance and individuality.

    As far as the 3w4 v. 4 thing goes, one thing that'd do typological discussion a whole lot of good is a separation between character and concerns. I have many kind-of-fourish preferences and concerns, and used to have more when I kept the company of more Four-ish people, but no one in their right mind would mistake me for being a Four in terms of temperamental character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zirnitra View Post
    You raise some valid points, especially the extroversion vs. detachment issue. I do have to disagree with your statements about extraversion, specifically where you wrote, "Extraversion has a positive correlation with both aspects of Openness/Intellect, the personality trait that's linked to aesthetic sensitivity, a desire to experience strong emotions, a vivid imagination, creativity, tendency to psychosis, an intellectual personal style including the drive to invest effort into analyzing things in depth, and to some extent raw intellectual ability itself. (Fives and Fours are characterized by both low Extraversion and high Openness/Intellect)" There are many introverted individuals, including Fives, who are very open to new experiences, who experience very strong emotions, are very creative and have a vivid imagination - it's just that Fives tend to be reserved about expressing their emotions which they feel very deeply indeed. There are many creative Fives, from fellow writers and artists and musicians to actors, dancers etcetera. And when one looks at the 5w4 types, that's when you definitely find Fives who have these creative, imaginative personalities/characters.
    This merely says you did not understand a statistical statement. A correlation is just that, and little else: If we took a hundred extraverts, and a hundred introverts, we'd find more high Openness scorers among the extraverts and fewer among the introverts, and especially if you kept growing the populations you'd find both populations likely spanning the entire range of very ordinary to the near-psychotic oddball, and that's it. I never once said high-Openness introverts didn't exist.

    My point was simply to refute the common trope, popularized by Jung, that extraversion tends towards shallowness and that the opposite is an inward depth-orientedness which is how it's often portrayed in popular culture. That isn't borne out by scientific, statistical study, and isn't simply my opinion. Extraversion and Openness both reflect a fundamental approaching, exploratory tendency in the psyche. People who tend to be high on one tend to be high on the other, and the reverse. That's fact and there's little else there to it.
    Allin thanked this post.


     
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Ever experience conflict with people that is directly related to instinctual stack?
    By Kitfool in forum Enneagram Personality Theory Forum
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 01-14-2019, 01:10 PM
  2. [INTP] Introverts directly connected to collective unconsious
    By ConspiracyTheory in forum INTP Forum - The Thinkers
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 03-12-2015, 12:17 AM
  3. [Enneagram Type 9] Are 9's reflective of their culture like 3's?
    By keltic07 in forum Type 9 Forum - The Peacemaker
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 04-28-2013, 07:33 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:23 AM.
Information provided on the site is meant to complement and not replace any advice or information from a health professional.
© 2014 PersonalityCafe
 

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0