[ENTJ] What is Intuition?

What is Intuition?

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This is a discussion on What is Intuition? within the ENTJ Forum - The Executives forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Hi ENTJs, I'm testing an hypothesis. Please tell me to what degree (25%, 50%, 75% or 90% of the time) ...

  1. #1
    INFJ - The Protectors

    What is Intuition?

    Hi ENTJs,

    I'm testing an hypothesis.

    Please tell me to what degree (25%, 50%, 75% or 90% of the time) that this is your experience of acquiring knowledge on a day-to-day using intuition:

    "Intuition is the ability to acquire knowledge without proof, evidence, or conscious reasoning, or without understanding how the knowledge was acquired"

    Thanks,
    Sun18



  2. #2

    Ni is being able to foresee the implications of an event. The reason why INTJs are called the masterminds because they can foresee the implications of an event and plan around it. In the military, they will foresee what will the enemy will do next and they will make a plan what to do next. In short, Ni is pretty much foreseeing what will happen next.
    Last edited by Master_Star; 04-18-2019 at 05:06 PM.

  3. #3

    All the time, but I don't quite agree with the definition, because it makes it seem like intuition is some sort of supernatural sixth sense that we use based on magic, and that's just not true.

    Let me give you an example. In my job as a physician, sometimes I'll meet situations that require very quick acting. So pretend I'm at the intensive care center and a patient's state suddenly worsens. Intuition is looking at his files and going "start him on antibiotics that cover bacterias A, B and C".

    I don't consciously know why my hunch says cover those bacteria. My line of thought jumped from point A, "patient unstable", to point B, "possible infection by this". That doesn't mean it's illogical. If you stop me and go "Hey buttons, why did you pick that?" I'll pause, and I'll think, and then I'll be able to tell you "I chose this because he did a surgery on his gut, which means bacteria A, and he has an urinary catheter, which means bacteria B, and in this hospital I know for a fact bacteria C is common so I wanted to cover that as well."

    That's what intuition feels like. It's not SHAZAM, an answer. It's a mixture of making connections and... brain muscle memory?

    I gave my brain "UNSTABLE" and the brain replied "Fever, glucose, pH?", and then I gave my brain "FEVER" and it debranched into "High or low?" and "Infection sites?" and "Agents?", and then "Agents" debranched into "Bacteria, fungus, virus?" and so on like a crazy domino pile spreading in every direction at once

    and then ding

    "Probably gram-negative bacilus"

    the steps are there, I'm just not looking at them, sorta like how I'm not thinking about how to drive a car when I drive, but if you ask me to teach you, I could break it down for you
    Blue Flower thanked this post.

  4. #4
    INFJ - The Protectors

    Quote Originally Posted by buttons1 View Post
    All the time, but I don't quite agree with the definition, because it makes it seem like intuition is some sort of supernatural sixth sense that we use based on magic, and that's just not true.

    Let me give you an example. In my job as a physician, sometimes I'll meet situations that require very quick acting. So pretend I'm at the intensive care center and a patient's state suddenly worsens. Intuition is looking at his files and going "start him on antibiotics that cover bacterias A, B and C".

    I don't consciously know why my hunch says cover those bacteria. My line of thought jumped from point A, "patient unstable", to point B, "possible infection by this". That doesn't mean it's illogical. If you stop me and go "Hey buttons, why did you pick that?" I'll pause, and I'll think, and then I'll be able to tell you "I chose this because he did a surgery on his gut, which means bacteria A, and he has an urinary catheter, which means bacteria B, and in this hospital I know for a fact bacteria C is common so I wanted to cover that as well."

    That's what intuition feels like. It's not SHAZAM, an answer. It's a mixture of making connections and... brain muscle memory?

    I gave my brain "UNSTABLE" and the brain replied "Fever, glucose, pH?", and then I gave my brain "FEVER" and it debranched into "High or low?" and "Infection sites?" and "Agents?", and then "Agents" debranched into "Bacteria, fungus, virus?" and so on like a crazy domino pile spreading in every direction at once

    and then ding

    "Probably gram-negative bacilus"

    the steps are there, I'm just not looking at them, sorta like how I'm not thinking about how to drive a car when I drive, but if you ask me to teach you, I could break it down for you
    Hi buttons1,

    It's interesting that you replied "All the time" to the above definition of intuition, but yet say that it involves conscious fast reasoning based on past experiences and knowledge.

    My experience of intuition is not that it's magic, but that a lot of information is available to us but most people's brains are not wired to perceive this information.

    For example, when Einstein came up with the equation E=MC2, this equation had always been there, but no one was able to pick up this information. Therefore, it's similar to downloading a digital file from the Internet, and anyone who is an Ni dominant has a brainwave pattern that allows them to easily access this information. That's why many people have these "a-ha" moments during meditation or while they sleep.

    Sun18
    Last edited by Sun18; 04-19-2019 at 06:11 PM.
    buttons1 thanked this post.

  5. #5
    ENTJ


    Ni is like that nagging mom voice saying a lot of shit and you have no idea why it's even going there - no proof dammit! Then the Te allfather steps up and says "come on lil missy... let's go get some evidence to support your claims." Ni says "Why do you doubt me and waste all of our time with these little verifications? I am the UBERFUNCTION, remember?" Because.... sometimes....you're wrong. And as much as we revel in being right, we can't stand being wrong.

    But often, our intuition is right. It is just a slave to a more developed Te that must ensure that hunches aren't just weird gut feelings possibly caused by bad diet.

    I had thought about posting a thread about whether or not we trust our intuition, and if our intuition is sending us a very strong message (e.g. don't do business with this guy because you have the feeling he won't pay, or will bitch about pricing every time), do we simply just follow it or go to lengths that prove our intuition right or wrong.

    Well, this may be my last post here as I've asked for retirement due to ongoing harassment outside of PerC. My intuition tells me he will read this post and send yet another email to my spam folder.

    Salut friends.
    Strelnikov thanked this post.

  6. #6

    Honestly intuition is one of those things I've consistently questioned with regards to the MBTI. As humans we learn by various methods. Tinkering is part of that learning process. Selective memory is also a real thing.

    When I am working on patients it's clinical experience that directs my automatic thought process. Prior to acquiring the clinical information it was "theoretical" meaning there were things that were taught to us by the book and we followed a series of steps to draw a conclusion or resolve an issue. Clinical knowledge is trail and error: Se. Using that to form a basis of knowledge is Si. Incorporating a new framework independent of the theories in books which also includes your clinical experience to apply to new solutions could be considered Ni. Branching off that framework and thinking of new applications which maybe in an entirely different field is more like Ne. I think we all do these things if we're functional humans.

    People remember the one time the had a de novo application or solution and forget the thousands of times they just did what the book told them to do - they are intuitive now.

    I think it comes down to: Do you wing it? Do you panic about making a mistake? Did you read the manual? Do you actually know why you are doing what you are doing? etc etc.

    You'll arrive at a series of traits that are more consistent with sensor or intuitive - ta da you've typed yourself.

    I am more theoretical. I want to know why something works. I want to know how to be most effective. I don't need to know all the ins and outs just the most important stuff and why it works. I eliminate the bullshit and get to the core of it. I don't like making mistakes, I don't like winging it. I like to have an idea what I am getting into and I analyze the shit out of it prior and while I am in it. I am more likely to get paralysis by analysis then I am to "learn from my mistakes". Hard to put a percentage on something like that because I am not entirely failure adverse either.
    Asd456 thanked this post.

  7. #7

    Quote Originally Posted by Sun18 View Post
    Hi ENTJs,

    I'm testing an hypothesis.

    Please tell me to what degree (25%, 50%, 75% or 90% of the time) that this is your experience of acquiring knowledge on a day-to-day using intuition:

    "Intuition is the ability to acquire knowledge without proof, evidence, or conscious reasoning, or without understanding how the knowledge was acquired"

    Thanks,
    Sun18
    This makes intuition sound like there is no basis in it’s soundness. Like it’s something you pull out of thin air.

    There is a sense of surety to my intuition. The penny drops and BOOM— I can see the “answer”. I think this is more about how an abstract mind works in the background, constantly sorting and analyzing data just below the surface until the implications of the application of the data make sense. The thought comes to me (to others seemingly out of nowhere), but it was always there in my head, banging around in there, until it came together in a form that makes sense that I can articulate.

    If I go back then, and look at how I got there, I can “see” it. There IS “proof, evidence, reasoning, and understanding” how I got to the answer, if I look at it and back trace it. It didn’t come from nowhere. It came from linking seemingly unrelated things. Something abstract in my head came together and showed me the solution.

    This is a difficult concept to explain to someone who thinks concretely. Their thinking tends to be more like a methodical flow chart — and their process more like sorting through what they already know, and trying to find the answer within that. (thinking inside the box, so to speak. “I know what I know”.)

    To concrete thinkers, it seems that we abstract thinkers sometimes “pull things out of thin air” (or more colloquially out of somewhere else ... haha). But it’s that our brains are wired to juggle more complex things, looking for patterns and implications. What it could be, or what it means, and what should happen next, rather than simply what it is.

  8. #8

    Quote Originally Posted by MsBossyPants View Post
    This makes intuition sound like there is no basis in it’s soundness. Like it’s something you pull out of thin air.

    There is a sense of surety to my intuition. The penny drops and BOOM— I can see the “answer”. I think this is more about how an abstract mind works in the background, constantly sorting and analyzing data just below the surface until the implications of the application of the data make sense. The thought comes to me (to others seemingly out of nowhere), but it was always there in my head, banging around in there, until it came together in a form that makes sense that I can articulate.

    If I go back then, and look at how I got there, I can “see” it. There IS “proof, evidence, reasoning, and understanding” how I got to the answer, if I look at it and back trace it. It didn’t come from nowhere. It came from linking seemingly unrelated things. Something abstract in my head came together and showed me the solution.

    This is a difficult concept to explain to someone who thinks concretely. Their thinking tends to be more like a methodical flow chart — and their process more like sorting through what they already know, and trying to find the answer within that. (thinking inside the box, so to speak. “I know what I know”.)

    To concrete thinkers, it seems that we abstract thinkers sometimes “pull things out of thin air” (or more colloquially out of somewhere else ... haha). But it’s that our brains are wired to juggle more complex things, looking for patterns and implications. What it could be, or what it means, and what should happen next, rather than simply what it is.
    The issue with the MBTI is the idea of a dichotomy. Separating "concrete thinkers" and "abstract thinkers". I don't think our natural default is to be that polarized. I think trauma and learned behavior leads to fear of trying new things or thinking outside of the box. I think it's natural for people to come up with creative solutions or having an imagination. Children have imagination, being unimaginative and confined is something that is taught. Society teaches you to conform, trauma teaches you to avoid things.

    I think highly "concrete thinkers" were likely those who were subjected more scrutiny in their youth. Perhaps they had helicopter parents who thought on their behalf and told them their childhood tangents were silly, perhaps they were in the military. Some people probably are very "concrete" with topics that they were reprimanded for prior and "abstract" with things that carry no such connection.

  9. #9

    Quote Originally Posted by NT the DC View Post
    The issue with the MBTI is the idea of a dichotomy. Separating "concrete thinkers" and "abstract thinkers". I don't think our natural default is to be that polarized. I think trauma and learned behavior leads to fear of trying new things or thinking outside of the box. I think it's natural for people to come up with creative solutions or having an imagination. Children have imagination, being unimaginative and confined is something that is taught. Society teaches you to conform, trauma teaches you to avoid things.

    I think highly "concrete thinkers" were likely those who were subjected more scrutiny in their youth. Perhaps they had helicopter parents who thought on their behalf and told them their childhood tangents were silly, perhaps they were in the military. Some people probably are very "concrete" with topics that they were reprimanded for prior and "abstract" with things that carry no such connection.
    I agree with you to the extent that trauma or learned behaviors can affect some people’s confidence or ability. I would imagine this is less likely with NTs because that sense of surety that we are correct is very powerful and tends to override negative input from others.

    Let’s put a manned capsule on the moon.
    Pfft. It’ll never work.
    Alrighty, then. If you’re not going to help, get out of the way. Watch me.

    Where we differ, though is that I think your natural abilities and tendencies aren’t taught, they’re innate. it’s much more nature over nurture. I think your head is hardwired toward certain aspects of natural skills, thought, and behavior.

    I can’t offer you any citations on the topic—I haven’t done a deep dive into it, but anecdotally, I’ve interviewed hundreds of people in the course of my career (Corporate Team Trainer, and Director of Human Resources— both very abstract and ENTJ-type jobs, btw) and it’s pretty easy to see and predict behavior if you’re skilled at reading people. In my experience, it does pretty much hold true that people are hardwired to think a certain way. In general: People hardwired to think broadly about big picture solutions get bored when faced with repetitive, mindless work, and people good at detailed “by the book” work tend to get stressed and overwhelmed when you throw a monkey wrench into the process and require them to think outside the box to trouble shoot.

    I can hire someone who can be taught how to perform a repetitive task: bank teller, quality control inspector, customer service rep, etc., but you can’t teach someone how to think, though. Complex problem solving requires the ability to find solutions that don’t already exist. (You can’t be taught to be inventive, or “see” things that aren’t already there)

    Also, to your second point, anecdotally, I grew up in a house full of ESXJs. (Mom, Dad, brother) I’m the black sheep of the family. haha. Two of my grandparents, and some aunts and uncles were NTs. I always related much better with them. I’m one of those people you cite who were subjected to constant judging and scrutiny, whose creativity was constantly attempted to be stifled. I grew up in a home where they were determined to make me conform. They couldn’t. My natural propensity toward complex thought literally couldn’t not be beaten out of me. (I’m using literally correctly here). I had the innate sense that I was correct in my thinking and no amount of trauma could change that. I got away from them as soon as I could, and I put myself through college, majoring in Economics, and was headed for law school, what I wanted to do all along.

    My nephew was in the same position. He’s INTP (with ESTJ parents, my brother and the Mrs) and from a very early age showed artistic talent- he wanted to write comic books. Believe me when I tell you his parents weren’t having that. Tried to force him into other more “concrete” studies. Like my parents, refused to help him with college unless he chose a more “normal” profession. He got a scholarship and graduated from college where he studied art and graphic design, works in the industry, and is working on a graphic novel.

    Contrary to what you’re proffering I believe if you think abstractly, you’re more likely to end up where you want to be, in spite of all those negative things thrown at you. If you’re able to think abstractly, you can see that what you’re being “sold” isn’t necessarily true, that more possibilities exist and that you don’t have to accept what is being said because someone in a position of authority “said so”.

    That’s just my own personal experience, and 40 years experience in working with people, being able to read them, and placing them in jobs that suit their innate skills. Your mileage may vary.


     

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