[ENTJ] The Te-Fi axis aggression vs feeling - Page 4

The Te-Fi axis aggression vs feeling

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This is a discussion on The Te-Fi axis aggression vs feeling within the ENTJ Forum - The Executives forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Originally Posted by buttons1 It's interesting that you'd call it intropunitive; I can't say I've had this experience but maybe ...

  1. #31

    Quote Originally Posted by buttons1 View Post

    It's interesting that you'd call it intropunitive; I can't say I've had this experience but maybe that's just me. Thing is, intropunitive is just not something that I do?

    "What did I do to make him act this way" is a very very rare thought - I do get it when I'm looking back on things and on particularly low mood, but on a usual day this thought is shaped as "Could I have done anything differently to lead to a better outcome?"

    And it's an important difference, because the former has a certain amount of guilt attached, while the latter is kinda unemotional and actually feels closer to a Te thought. I guess the point here is that regret and guilt aren't really natural processes because they require a certain amount of dwelling in the past that doesn't suit the future-minded linearity I get from my stack. It's less "this was my fault" and more "let's not repeat this mistake again and here's how we can try that".

    So intrapunitive sounds sorta weird, but if I think long and hard about it, I suppose I could call the act of lashing out a self-punishment as much as a punishment to someone else - it's illogical, it's objectively bad, makes me look bad, doesn't yield any positive results, it's proof that my logical-minded self is acting solely on emotions - which I hate, and all in all it ends up causing those rare specks of guilt because I can't justify to myself why I did it other than "I was mad", and that's no justification at all.
    I think generally the J/P axis in MBTI measures the habitual direction of how we act - extra or intropunitive. J types are extrapunitive with their T as well, they prioritize seeing how the environment can fit their ideal, while Ps will take the environment's info and see how they can rearrange their self instead. It's 'punitive' in the broader sense, that each type directs the flow of change inside or outside. It's basically how MBTI defines Te/Fe and Ti/Fi.

    So it's not surprising that you wouldn't be intropunitive often, since "Fi" it's your least favourite combo of function-attitude, but for an FP type, it's the most usual state of mind. I don't think the idea of time is exactly right, the answer is found in Jung's original ideas for adaptational drives instead, which measure how inclined one is to rearrange oneself or the environment.
    buttons1 thanked this post.

  2. #32

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    I have a INFJ friend who is interested in dating ENTJs. She expressed her views of Te as being purely unemotional. I disagreed with her on a few points and I hope you will share what you think.

    My reply to her was based on some of my personal experience with Te. I brought up that when I am very stressed the way that I experience my tertiary Te (likely some kind of grip) is as a very aggressive function that won't let up. I want things improved immediately, every standard that I see is possible. I become bossy towards my family when I go home. I get very impatient with anything misunderstood, anything uncompleted. When really stressed (I know this is your main, not something that happens when you're stressed) I won't let up until someone removes me from everything I believe is in my jurisdiction and helps me to feel and get back to Fi. When really stressed a movie or a play or feeling music is what I need. Once I feel again, I can then have empathy for everyone who I just told to do X, Y, and Z NOW! When in Te mode then there is nothing more logical than the idea that anything sub-standard should and must be improved and it's illogical to not improve it and that means everyone else responsible needs to also improve it. Luckily I am no longer in a position of so much stress. I fully acknowledge that my tert Te is probably not even a quarter as sophisticated as your Te dom, of course.

    My friend said Te aggression in ENTJs is "just unhealthy squashed down Fi". That might be one way to put it, and I said the way she put that is irrelevant. My point was that in my experience persons who are Te dominant are aggressive and that Te doms have to learn to modify this aggression to work with others... most of you do (as far as I perceive) since you realize you have to work with others to be successful, in my summation, but I think Te is constantly aggressive unless you are allowed to relax. Actually, I really don't care how that is put. I often do like to think there is nothing wrong with my Ne but there might be plenty wrong with my baby squashed down Si. You can think the same if you want to blame temper on Fi, I guess, but for me Fi is what would give humanity and empathy to Te.

    How do you experience this? Since I'm on the Ne-Si axis, I am interested in the story of your development to understand you all more deeply as an ENFP wants to.

    So if I am at all right, at what age did you start to watch out and modify your aggression? How did this happen for you? How do you explain what will subdue your aggression? I'd love to hear any stories about realizations or how you learned the strategies that you have learned on this (pretty much your archetypal) journey?


    Edit: 2 interesting and related threads. The first one shows how ENFPs describe feeling the different direction between Te anger and Fi hurt/anger.

    https://www.personalitycafe.com/enfp...l#post42427269
    https://www.personalitycafe.com/nfs-...purpose-3.html
    I wouldn't define Te as aggressive. I think any function can be aggressive - Ti can take someone who subscribes to a general concept and dismantle their ideology by pointing out how inconsistent it is. Fi can tell someone how they didn't even take into consideration how someone felt or what they were experiencing. Fe can tell someone how they didn't even understand how their actions makes people feel and how they messed up everyone's mood.

    Disagreement is often seen as aggressive. Te is really about pointing out what the general consensus or the most effective method is and uses more empirical evidence to form an opinion. That in itself is not aggressive unless you disagree with what is said.

    The ability to get along with others comes but it's not because I felt like I was aggressive but because I realized people are more emotionally thin skinned. Watching what you say and how you say it is a skill learned to advance yourself in life - it has monetary reward and can help you connect with others.

    Feeling impatient and like you need to get shit done isn't something I'd call aggressive either. Accomplishing goals is rewarding - a fundamental part of living a fulfilled life.

  3. #33

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    I can see that in order to get my questions answered we need to define or acknowledge or perhaps as a group modify the definition of what I call Te aggression.

    When high Te users want to bring something to standard, it is aggressive. Other folks wouldn’t be so aggressive on seeing or needing something to be a certain standard or in shoving certain standards on others.... and actually in creative and feeling works creative people would defy Te standards since this is not Te’s area of expertise —- Fe and Fi rule there... Although there are at least technical standards to broach...I’m talking about creative works whose main aim is to make people feel and reflect and heighten moral sensitivity...But yeah....

    Most of you in a work setting would be efficient at figuring out and/or just knowing the Te standards and then get aggressive when things people do are not up to par. It’s not personal—no, but it is certainly aggressive. You want this changed— NOW! Someone with less Te (me usually) would not usually impose on another person’s style. Under stress and when I’m a manager then I start feeling the Te irritation, but when I’m relaxed I can work with people where they are at and inspire people to move forward towards our goals unless I’m intimidated by them or if they also decide to be too emotional about the need for change... or they are Si stuck. (And with ESTJs it’s about doing a certain thing a certain way which for me is a hell of a lot worse than anything a ENTJ would throw at me.) From any angle the need to change people ain’t easy— but Te is aggressive in hog-tying that standard down.

    I.e Te is aggressive at imposing Te standards. It is the logical thing to do to not piss off your entire team and to be able to work better with people or else you’re not making your goals either. Which is why I assume you guys have worked on this. At some point you’d have to work on people skills as a logical need.

    Going back to my questions: how old were you and what experiences did you have that helped you learn to modify your style to better work with people? How do you relax especially when with loved ones?
    Here's a good example of Te.
    You are trying to get us to agree to your term "Te - aggression" you define it as "bringing other people up to standard" - you say "that is aggression." No, the definition of aggression is hostile or violent behavior, readiness to attack or confront. Bringing people up to standard is not aggression because it carries with it no hostile, violent behavior and it doesn't imply a readiness to attack.

    All those have a pretty bad connotations. Confront is probably the least negative word of the bunch but can also mean: come face to face with hostile or argumentative intent. It can also mean face up and deal with a problem which is a little less "aggressive" and accurate. Overall the use of the word aggression seems misplaced while describing Te, if anything the goal is to enlighten the person to get them to agree with you not simply scold them. You can teach the importance of the standard and why it's used, even if you understand the limitations of the model.

    You seem to want us to agree with what we view as misuse of a term. I'd suggest you consider re-naming "Te-aggression" and just call it "bringing things up to standard" or something like that because that's the most effective method to get your questions answered. The way I see it is you're trying to establish your term "Te-aggression", it's misplaced and you are attempting to impose a misplaced term on us.

    When I was done with my bachelors degree I sold insurance and that gave me a lot of insight on communication. My relationship with my gf also illuminated my style of communication and modifications that might help.I am not sure what you mean by relax? I feel like I am relaxing right now, simply chatting on a message board. I can relax pretty easily unless I have something I need to take care of with high priority.

    For instance I couldn't relax today because my garage door busted and I had to coordinate a guy to come fix it, which I did. Once that got done I took a deep breath. But then I had to make my tri tip steak and workout. Right now it's past my bedtime and I have to do a lot of work tomorrow because I have a 3 day weekend. My goal is to get a lot of paperwork done tomorrow so I don't come back from a 3 day weekend with a lot of work that hits me at once. I am cognizant that I have a lot to do tomorrow but as it stands the message board has me interested in topics of discussion today and I'd say I'm relaxed despite what needs to be done because it's of low consequence.

    The point I think you're missing is that you see Si-types as immovable and see that we're more flexible because it make sense to be. However you think that this skill is learned because we made mistakes and learned the error of our way. Perhaps consider that we knew approaching it in a totally inflexible manner wasn't good from the start and that being too rigid didn't make sense for most people. These are skills that can be learned from observing the mistakes of others or even reading about them. We are intuitive after all - understanding the failure rate of an approach by personal failure isn't necessarily a prerequisite for learning.
    Llyralen, Blue Flower and VoicesOfSpring thanked this post.

  4. #34

    Quote Originally Posted by buttons1 View Post
    Oh yeah, definitely. A lot of the times Fi is the one deciding where to point Te, and that's sorta dangerous because we tend to not be aware of Fi. So we get situations like, "Well I'm really motivated to do X because it's clearly the most logical thing to do" but there's actually an emotional cause for that and we don't even know.

    Te is a tool more often than not. Te wants to fix things, but a lot of times it's Se-Fi telling it what to fix. Let me get you an example
    Great examples, thanks. I remember a while back we had a topic about Fi, and most people said 'I try to quash Fi as much as poss'. Like you said, it's about understanding that Fi is there.

    I read somewhere else that as you grow older, you tend to develop your functions in the order of preference, so ENTJs would get to Fi last. For me that somehow came earlier. Could be due to my prefession, though, working with people.
    Llyralen and buttons1 thanked this post.

  5. #35

    ag·gres·sive
    /əˈɡresiv/

    adjective
    1. Ready or likely to attack or confront; characterized by or resulting from aggression.
    "he's very uncooperative and aggressive"
    synonyms: hostile, belligerent, bellicose, antagonistic, truculent; More
    2. Pursuing one's aims and interests forcefully, sometimes unduly so.
    "an aggressive businessman"
    synonyms: assertive, forceful, competitive, insistent, vigorous, energetic, dynamic, driving, bold, audacious, enterprising, go-ahead, zealous, pushing, pushy, in-your-face, feisty
    "an aggressive promotional drive"



    I have been using the 2nd definition exclusively. The 1st definition can happen, but it's not what I'm saying is inherent in Te or how I meant the word. I was not thinking of belligerent or bellicose. The 2nd definition does seem to me to be an inherent part of Te and it doesn't have to be a good or bad thing, imo. It depends on how it is used.

    Yes? No?
    Crowbo thanked this post.

  6. #36

    Quote Originally Posted by Negotiator View Post
    Great examples, thanks. I remember a while back we had a topic about Fi, and most people said 'I try to quash Fi as much as poss'. Like you said, it's about understanding that Fi is there.

    I read somewhere else that as you grow older, you tend to develop your functions in the order of preference, so ENTJs would get to Fi last. For me that somehow came earlier. Could be due to my prefession, though, working with people.
    Ummm... I have seen other theories which say that actually one gets to develop the inferior function before the tertiary, because it is tied to the dominant... It's like the dominant is dragging it along. Others pretty much say that there is some overlap in the stages of development, so you might develop at certain points 2, maybe even 3 functions. This would be true if (and I do subscribe to this idea) you accept that there is no sudden shift from one stage to the next. It's a gradual process and even if you're done with stage 1 of the dominant... well, the dominant will keep developing in the background, it doesn't automatically stop once you get to the next stage.

    Fi, for me... well, I've always described my inner emotional landscape like a desert (I'm neutral most of the time: not happy, not sad... just neutral), but just like any desert it has oases of Fi. I don't think "quashing Fi" is a good idea, it would be a game of whack-a-mole, you repress it here and it will pop over there... It is there, it is a fact, however unpleasant it may be. I just learned to accept my feelings as they are and not analyse/judge them, just like I don't analyse a natural phenomenon, like rain. It just is. And for me... Fi stops pestering me once I just accept it's there and acknowledge its existence. Other than that, I try to avoid the sources of strong feelings for the most part (there are exceptions), so they don't happen in the first place.
    lunaticrabbits, Llyralen, L P and 1 others thanked this post.

  7. #37
    ENTJ

    Being less aggressive, an INFJ would probably see ENTJ as aggressive. Maybe that's friend of Llyralen wants to try dating them. Aggressiveness could be intriguing for the less aggressive. It could have a raw primal appeal.

  8. #38

    Quote Originally Posted by Llyralen View Post
    ag·gres·sive
    /əˈɡresiv/

    adjective
    1. Ready or likely to attack or confront; characterized by or resulting from aggression.
    "he's very uncooperative and aggressive"
    synonyms: hostile, belligerent, bellicose, antagonistic, truculent; More
    2. Pursuing one's aims and interests forcefully, sometimes unduly so.
    "an aggressive businessman"
    synonyms: assertive, forceful, competitive, insistent, vigorous, energetic, dynamic, driving, bold, audacious, enterprising, go-ahead, zealous, pushing, pushy, in-your-face, feisty
    "an aggressive promotional drive"



    I have been using the 2nd definition exclusively. The 1st definition can happen, but it's not what I'm saying is inherent in Te or how I meant the word. I was not thinking of belligerent or bellicose. The 2nd definition does seem to me to be an inherent part of Te and it doesn't have to be a good or bad thing, imo. It depends on how it is used.

    Yes? No?
    I think there is a difference between aggressively pursuing your own goals and being aggressive towards others.
    When you say it's about bringing other people up to standard, it's not about yourself so the second definition doesn't apply very well because it's stating you are pursing your own aims.

    The way I see it is - yes I am aggressive about pursuing my own goals but that pertains to myself - my standards for myself.
    When it comes to others - I honestly don't care about them enough to get consumed by what they do, everyone has their own life path to take and I have myself to worry about. If they annoy me a I just keep my distance.

    When we're in a work environment I do care if their lack of performance effects me so giving them the instruction how to do the job the most efficiently will occur. That doesn't mean I am being aggressive with them - they are screwing up so you have to let them know so they change their behavior. If you don't screw up there is no reason to confront you. When I confront I put on my nice voice and try to explain why we need to do it a certain way. If you keep screwing up then it's time for you to move on.

    If it's being a ball buster to make sure people carry their own weight then yes I can be a ball buster, I just see it as I am not willing to enable people to be lazy and defer responsibility on others. The people I surround myself with tend to be cool so there is no reason to ball bust. I have more of a dismissive attachment to people so I am not going to waste my time trying to change them and challenge their beliefs. I accept them for what they are - and some people are fuck ups but life goes on and the fuck ups might not see themselves as fuck ups and that's ok... I am not here to change their mind.

    I am collaborative and fluid in my thinking as long as there is rationale. I understand that my standards do not apply to everyone. I think the issue is some people don't want to have anything imposed on them and fail to understand that a job isn't one of those places unless you're in charge. To me it's about minimizing stress, increasing efficiency, and being monetarily rewarded. My ISFP gf hates working and hates being "controlled" however she scapegoats her superiors and hasn't taken initiative to be her own boss despite the support I've given her to do it. For some it's easier to be upset at the one who is charged with enforcing rules rather than look inward at your own lack of drive and initiative. People live in their own jails and the cell is totally made by themselves.
    Windblownhair and lunaticrabbits thanked this post.

  9. #39

    Quote Originally Posted by NT the DC View Post
    I think there is a difference between aggressively pursuing your own goals and being aggressive towards others.
    When you say it's about bringing other people up to standard, it's not about yourself so the second definition doesn't apply very well because it's stating you are pursing your own aims.

    The way I see it is - yes I am aggressive about pursuing my own goals but that pertains to myself - my standards for myself.
    When it comes to others - I honestly don't care about them enough to get consumed by what they do, everyone has their own life path to take and I have myself to worry about. If they annoy me a I just keep my distance.

    When we're in a work environment I do care if their lack of performance effects me so giving them the instruction how to do the job the most efficiently will occur. That doesn't mean I am being aggressive with them - they are screwing up so you have to let them know so they change their behavior. If you don't screw up there is no reason to confront you. When I confront I put on my nice voice and try to explain why we need to do it a certain way. If you keep screwing up then it's time for you to move on.

    If it's being a ball buster to make sure people carry their own weight then yes I can be a ball buster, I just see it as I am not willing to enable people to be lazy and defer responsibility on others.
    The people I surround myself with tend to be cool so there is no reason to ball bust. I have more of a dismissive attachment to people so I am not going to waste my time trying to change them and challenge their beliefs. I accept them for what they are - and some people are fuck ups but life goes on and the fuck ups might not see themselves as fuck ups and that's ok... I am not here to change their mind.

    I am collaborative and fluid in my thinking as long as there is rationale. I understand that my standards do not apply to everyone. I think the issue is some people don't want to have anything imposed on them and fail to understand that a job isn't one of those places unless you're in charge. To me it's about minimizing stress, increasing efficiency, and being monetarily rewarded. My ISFP gf hates working and hates being "controlled" however she scapegoats her superiors and hasn't taken initiative to be her own boss despite the support I've given her to do it. For some it's easier to be upset at the one who is charged with enforcing rules rather than look inward at your own lack of drive and initiative. People live in their own jails and the cell is totally made by themselves.
    Yep, this is the comparison between the two ends of the teeter-totter plank of the Te-Fi axis.
    I thought you guys would be more down with the word "aggressive". Most people on the NF forum openly talk about Fe doms being aggressive morally and you folks seem obviously persistent and aggressive logically.

    Working for people to conform to a certain standard at work is not really the aim of any but high Te users. And I have enough Te development that I openly feel the logical need for high measures of productivity... however my Fi means I wouldn't make anyone change or be mean enough to get this to happen. I understand the need for those who can. I'm glad it's on someone else rather than me. When I was in management discipline was rough for me. I knew when people were not pulling their weight and it bothered me to no end, but I didn't have the aggression to write them up or to do much of anything except for sometimes confront them and document everything.

    Many of the things you say you've learned or decided in your above description show that you've learned to compartmentalize the aggression, which sounds very healthy to me. I think it's how I hear most of you deal with Te aggression. Aggressive at work, especially when you have responsibility, and relax with loved ones and at leisure. I'd like to hear more about how you get aggression out through sports or maybe angry music? I'm interested in hearing more about your growth curve, learning to be soft with others, etc. Sports seems to help... compartmentalizing so that you don't bring it home seems to help. What other strategies? How do you turn the day off? That's what I want to know.

  10. #40
    Unknown

    Te isn't a function that judges by perfectionism. Is it logical, does it work and is it good enough (cost/benefit equation) are its three main focuses.

    Perfectionism is detail focused. Te isn't detailed. Si's detail oriented.
    Windblownhair thanked this post.


     
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