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INTP-ENTJ relations case study to solve

5K views 18 replies 8 participants last post by  Vanitas 
#1 ·
Hi guys, I’m not a native speaker, so forgive my mistakes.

Sorry for sharing this soap-opera story with you, but I wouldn’t be asking for advice if I could figure it out by myself, however, as a very complicated female INTP I am overanalyzing everything to the point I am completely lost in my thoughts. Some ENTJ perspective may help :)

I met my ENTJ friend in a quite uncommon working environment (20 people living and working together as a team in the same rented house on the suburbs of a big city). I did not particularly like him in the beginning but then the unhealthy situation in a team brought us closer together. Team members were not really competent and the leader was controlling, authoritarian (ISTJ I suppose), rewarding loyalty and obedience instead of competence and hard work. We had hard time accepting stupid decisions that were made as a consequence and the complete lack of freedom. Being the two main critiques of “the system”, we fought with the leader (more him than me though) but this has brought us together and we bonded and supported each other a lot, spent most of our free time together.

However, the situation was getting worse and worse. The leader started plotting against the two of us and as a result I was treated very unfairly and was forced to leave the team. Here is where really strong emotions come in to play. My ENTJ fought for me and defended me but he did not succeed. This situation broke him, he got very emotional to the point he almost cried in front of me.

He stayed in the team with the feeling that he was there alone with no one to talk to. I returned to my home city depressed by the unfair treatment, with a strong sense of failure, missing my ENTJ. I needed him, his support and attention, as he became the closest friend I had at that time. However, he was not there for me, he stopped calling me, didn’t return my calls (was busy with the work, he said), which pissed me off and made me act passive-aggressive. I believe I hurt him on couple of occasions. He reacted aggressively (especially when he was drunk). I considered ending this friendship as this is what I do when somebody hurts me. We talked about this a bit but I never felt safe enough to talk about my feelings openly. I always had an impression that he does not understand me and mocks me because I am being unreasonable. We fought a lot at that time. At some point got the impression that I overdid and he does not want to know me any more.

This thought scared me. I realized that he might be more important to me as I initially thought. As crazy as it might sound I know that we developed a very special relation, we care for each other more than we’ll probably ever show or admit. As INTP I tend to fall in love with my close male friends, however, I am not sure what I feel for him. I believe we would be great together. We are somehow very similar but complete each other at the same time, and have a lot to offer to the other person. I would like to try how it would work in a relationship, but I suppose if he wanted that too, he would do something about it.

However, he confuses me.

  • Sometimes he finishes our phone conversation with “I love you. Bye.” (Which I’m aware that can be purely friendly.)
  • He talks extremely well about me in front of his friends. I even met one of them for the first time and when this person learned who I am, he said: “Wow, so this is you. I feel honored to meet you, you are a great person and I respect you very much.” Very unexpected.
  • He considered us renting a flat together when we start new jobs in the same city (which was the initial plan some time ago)
  • I know I did a lot of things wrong, was subjective and unfair, but he was being extremely patient with me (as for him).

Anyway, one month after I left, he decided to quit as the situation in the team was not getting any better and without me he could not deal with it. We met, he apologized for not being there for me, said that we will be meeting more often ones he moves to the city I found a new job in (only if I want it, he added). He assured me that nothing has changed in his approach toward me.


Probably, it would be easier if he did move to the same city. However, he accepted a job offer from his friend and moved to a different one. The offer was exactly what he wanted, so I’m happy for him. On the other hand, it means we will not be seeing each other very often (once every couple of months), so how am I supposed to figure out what I feel, what he feels and whether or not we would work as a couple? Does his behavior mean that I am just a friend or that I might become more than a friend?

I would like to know your perspective.
 
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#2 ·
Short answer is. Its hard to tell at this point. Question though. You wrote( and you are an excellent writer) that you would be seeing him once every couple of months. Was this discussed at some point, are you just taking a guess at the time?
Generally, ENTJs put their work first and relationships second. Again, its hard to tell. Just keep up the communication, and try to feel him out, but give him some space. He'll let you know one way or the other.Right now his priorities are getting settled in his new job and city.
 
#3 ·
Thank you, Dear Sigmunt :)



This was not discussed at any point. However, he is coming to my city (obviously for some practical reasons, not just to see me ;) ) in two weeks, than again we already made plans for a trip with a group of friends in May, so we’ll se each other then.

Why is that important?
 
#4 ·
Because ENTJs say what they mean and mean what they say. ( forgive the Dr.Suess reference, it just happened to work), and we keep our word. If its not explicitly stated then it may be best to take things as a "possibly", not a definitive.

We prefer direct and blunt communication. If you are ever unsure of anything, just flat out ask.
 
#5 ·
I don't know why it is typically assumed we choose career over relationships. If I am in a fantastic relationship, hell i am keeping both. I would much rather juggle than give up something amazing for a job.
@asharil ds is right. He will tell you exactly how he sees things going down, once it is clear in his head. We usually don't open out mouths until we know exactly what we are doing, as we generally stand by our words.
 
#6 ·
It is understandable that you would fall for him- you were stressed, and he provided some relief. He filled a need of yours. It is common for people to develop strong feelings in a situation like that. Plus, INTP and ENTJ are natural allies. However, it seems that you are under a limerent spell. Do you think of him constantly, even in your sleep? Do you go over recent interactions in your mind, over and over, looking for signs that he might return your feeling? Do your emotions alternate between ecstasy and heartbreak? If so, you cannot think clearly; you are not entirely in touch with reality while you are in this state of mind. You might be great for each other (or maybe not), but you cannot know for sure until the spell is broken. The object of your feeling is an illusion of your own creation. It is based on the real person, but it is not real. It's a glitch; you have a need and you might imagine that he can fill it completely. That, and introverted intuitives can get buried in the chaos of our own minds.

There are some things in your post that I'd like to answer. First, you said you didn't like him at first. Why not? If your feelings prevent you from viewing the situation objectively, imagine that you are advising a friend in your position. What would say to her?

And this:

He stayed in the team with the feeling that he was there alone with no one to talk to. I returned to my home city depressed by the unfair treatment, with a strong sense of failure, missing my ENTJ. I needed him, his support and attention, as he became the closest friend I had at that time. However, he was not there for me, he stopped calling me, didn’t return my calls (was busy with the work, he said), which pissed me off and made me act passive-aggressive. I believe I hurt him on couple of occasions.
It is good that you recognize your behavior was wrong. While you were distressed, so was he. He may not have been able to give you the support you needed and wanted. While NT's are very capable of giving moral support, it isn't our strength, especially when we ourselves are stressed. Your feelings are there to advise you, but they don't always give you an accurate picture of reality. If someone does something that makes you feel hurt, it doesn't necessarily mean they did anything wrong.

He reacted aggressively (especially when he was drunk). I considered ending this friendship as this is what I do when somebody hurts me. We talked about this a bit but I never felt safe enough to talk about my feelings openly. I always had an impression that he does not understand me and mocks me because I am being unreasonable. We fought a lot at that time. At some point got the impression that I overdid and he does not want to know me any more.
This is not good. If you do not feel safe with someone in your emotional space, something is wrong. There is poor communication, and one or both of you is emotionally immature. You're expressing a lot of feeling for an INTP, if this is indeed your type. If his thinking preference is strong then that difference between you could cause misunderstanding and conflict.

I think it is for the best that you are separated for awhile. This is the time for you to work on yourself. Turn your analysis inward, see if you can figure out why you're so needy that it causes you to mistreat people you care about. Observe your feelings as objects, without acting on them. It is difficult and agonizing, it doesn't make the bad feelings go away, and it doesn't change your behavior overnight. But in time you will get stronger and your thinking will get clearer. Unfortunately, I don't have much more advice on how to "work on yourself."
 
#8 ·
@Nitou Limerence, wow. Thanks for bringing this up. If you're right it means I should probably learn what he "feels" to get over it. Or find another object to obsess about :) Seems to me like a good plan. The only question is, however, will I able to remain friends with him after that.

Why didn't I like him? To be honest, I did not much care about him, barely noticed his presence. I believed he was a superficial party animal, talking only for the sake of hearing his own voice, who always wants to be in the center of attention. And I refused to pay attention to whatever he was doing, so I was rather ignoring him in the beginning. Then we had an argument over a values related topic connected also to work. We agreed to disagree and confirmed that neither of us had problem with working with the person of different opinion. Much later he told me that he actually had supported my point of view on that matter ;)

You're expressing a lot of feeling for an INTP, if this is indeed your type.
Thank you :) I am an INTP, that's for sure but I am working on my (in)ability to express feelings ;)

There is poor communication, and one or both of you is emotionally immature.
Might be both. He is less mature than me though. Or just suppressing his feelings to the point of a complete denial.

If you do not feel safe with someone in your emotional space, something is wrong.
He's amazingly great with manipulation, I saw him do that to so many people so many times that I am scared that he might be doing that to me as well so I just prefer to shut up sometimes.

Turn your analysis inward, see if you can figure out why you're so needy that it causes you to mistreat people you care about.
I figured out that I might have wanted a clear confirmation from his side that I wasn't the only person going through that emotional turmoil, that this situation hit us both equally hard. Some clear signs of reciprocity, if you will. The only thing I got was ambiguous and indirect. He refused to talk about how he felt or dealt with all that.

You guys have very accurate observations, I love that :)
(Feeling and appreciation expressed, still - INTP :)
 
#9 ·
le sigh~

Before you can even figure him out, you must first figure YOU out. Once you've done that I'll elaborate more on this. Your post has triggered memories of my romantic brush with an INTP friend. It ended (maybe not) quite the same.
 
#11 ·
What you feel and what you want from him. If you want comfort then it's best to move on.

Sigmund is right about work being of first priority most of the time. But that does not mean we won't schedule our person of interest in our calendars. His ambiguity was probably caused by your ambiguity. Your passive aggressiveness probably affected his trust towards you also. Kr3m1in is also right about us not opening our mouths until everything is clear in our heads.

I don't know. It's only been 2 weeks since I've decided to leave behind the mess the INTP and I made of our friendship. It may be too soon for me to give unbiased advice to you.

The ENTJ-INTP duo do make a great team. We communicated well but when doubt and uncertainty hit our relationship, our communication went awry. Whatever it was that made him uncertain, it made me confused. I didn't know what to think, what to do, and what to say. But I was very patient. That patience did not see tangible results in the end.
 
#12 ·
Ok, I am trying to figure out what I am feeling and what do I want. I am much calmer right now as I am getting used to the fact that we don't have contact with each other on regular basis.

In the meanwhile, here is another issue. I was taking to a common friend of ours (she's mine friend more than his) and she told me that actually she would never say that I'm more than a friend to him because I don't behave as if I was crazy for him. Of course, as an INTP, I'd rather die than let anyone discover my true feelings, but then again, how can HE know if I am not showing any interest (or what is generally perceived to be an indication of an interest).

Here comes my question: what can I do to suggest that I might be interested in more than just friendship? Is there anything? We live in different cities, that's the hard part.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Keep Dear Sigmund's suggestion in mind. Long distance is hard. And if communication between you two are already hard---- how much more difficult it would be with physical distance. It will become how much you guys WANT the relationship to work.
[B
Here comes my question: what can I do to suggest that I might be interested in more than just friendship?[/B]

It would be best if you just tell him upfront.

Ok let me ask you this---- do YOU think he has some sort of feelings for you? I know the stereotype says we're flirtatious and whatever--- but, I will speak for myself here, when I am interested in someone, I act very different around that person. It's subtle, no one can really tell (at least I don't think). In fact, I think when I'm interested in the guy, I don't flirt--- I tease.

Honestly, I think INTPs have an excellent poker face. I'd push for you to tell him bluntly, but you probably won't do that. And I'm probably biased (most likely biased), because blunt honesty was all that I wanted from him. Not of what he thought but of what he truly felt. Didn't happen, so game over.
 
#15 ·
Here is how the story continues:

We did not see each other since 2 months, I went from love to indifference and back (couple of times probably ;) )

Anyway, for my own sake I want to tell him how I see our "friendship", what is wrong with it, etc. I expect he will be surprised and won't see any problems. However, there are some.

Communication stays poor. He calls me when I am at work, so I can't pick up. I call him after work, but he never picks up. If I get tired of this and I don't call, he asks me why I don't keep in touch as if I was the only one not calling. Couple of weeks back we started to talk online regularly but then he was to busy, so was I and we stopped. Once I asked him to call me and he forgot. When he called me on Easter I told him he keeps forgetting about the fact I exist and he did not know why I think that. Crazy. I want to tell him how that gets on my nerves but how can I if he does not pick up when I call...

He was in my city and planned to see me on lunch but called me on that day so it was to late to make it happen and we did not see each other. He could have called me earlier and take me with him and our common friends for the conference (of the organization, where we met so I was disappointed he did not tell me he was going, we could go together, never told him though that I was pissed about it). He always fails to make arrangements like that WITH me. He just calls to ask if we can meet later on the day regardless of my plans, it's as if he expected me to drop everything because he is there and wants to meet.

He told a friend of ours that we do keep in touch but rarely and it's because we live in different cities.For me it's not only that. If he wanted to have good/normal relations, with a little effort on both sides we could do it. I'm not really sure if effort is what he is willing to make to keep it going. He does confuse - likes me, wants to stay in touch but his behavior (for me) proves otherwise.

What do I want? Clear things up, hear him say he never wanted anything more from me than friendship and move on either staying as friends or not.

Any comments? Any advice? Am I being unreasonable or emotional? I don't want that but need to tell him how I see things with no meaning of offending or criticizing him. How would you take it if it came out quite unexpectedly? Is there any good way to do it?
 
#16 ·
If communication this early in the game is bad--- I don't know if it's worth it. You two aren't even remotely close to being 'official' and you can't make up your mind and he's not being clear. Just a note: I'm usually VERY clear, when I'm interested.

By the way, what he told his friend is probably the focal point of his indecision.
 
#18 ·
On the other hand, why ENTJs and INTPs are supposed to be perfect match?
Not perfect at all. Just really good at problem solving things when it doesn't deal with emotional stuff. From my experience, we were great communicators when it came to arguments/conversations about just random things. But when it came to the emotional stuff--- OMG! homeboy took 30min to answer. I sat still watching (not really) Dexter series on tv. It ended before I had asked him again if he needed to think some more....

Even then, he had trouble answering---it sounded like a bunch of jibberish and thoughts that weren't fleshed out. At that point I had to go because he was so damn irritating. I wanted an answer that night so I can figure out what my next steps are. Anyway you get the gist.
 
#19 ·
From my experience, we were great communicators when it came to arguments/conversations about just random things. But when it came to the emotional stuff--- OMG!
That.

What do I want? Clear things up, hear him say he never wanted anything more from me than friendship and move on either staying as friends or not.

Any comments? Any advice? Am I being unreasonable or emotional? I don't want that but need to tell him how I see things with no meaning of offending or criticizing him. How would you take it if it came out quite unexpectedly? Is there any good way to do it?
I'd say let it go. If clearing the slate is what you're after, moving on is much, much easier when nothing is admitted or brought to clarity.

If you still want to though, might as well tell it to an ENTJ (xNTJ) than other types. Use a businesslike approach, put the statements into bullet points, with clear chronological system. If there's additional options (like, "I would still give it a shot, if you'd like to"), do not allude to them, just say it to his face. If possible, thank him in the end.
 
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