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This is a discussion on Ask an ENTJ a question within the ENTJ Forum - The Executives forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Is Tzara actually an entj?...

  1. #511

    Is Tzara actually an entj?
    Tzara thanked this post.

  2. #512
    ENTJ - The Executives

    Quote Originally Posted by muslamicinfidel View Post
    ENTJs, I have a question, or maybe a few. How well do you work with your hands? For example, are you skilled at taking things apart and putting them back together or maybe fixing things when they break like say installing a new screen in your phone? Also, are you artistic? do you express yourself through art or writing?

    Thanks
    I have fairly decent dexterity.

    Systemically, yes I like breaking down infrastructures to their individual components for the purposes of gaining understanding and finding a more efficient way for them to operate.

    Yes, I am artistic.

    Writing-- currently working on my memoir.

    Love painting too.

  3. #513
    ENFP - The Inspirers

    how do i become more interpersonally effective (keeping in mind/accepting my personality type, idealism, neurotype, lack of capacity for attention to detail)?


    i'm new to this website. if this is way too much for one question, if you feel qualified to answer but not motivated to answer all of this, answer a part of it, and if you seem very good at this stuff, i'll pay you to help me answer the rest of it! seeking manipulation coaches!

    i'm an aspie that doesn't pick up on facial expressions, subtleties, and nuance. things that work for me are all literal, including practical rules, rituals, scripts (i can't think fast on my feet), and learning about myers briggs (i have to ask someone their type otherwise i won't get how they work differently than me). out in the world, this stuff isn't taught to people in my learning style. the social rules that are said out loud are usually not the ones people actually follow, and the people who are the best at social rules usually know not to say them out loud. so it's taken me 22 years to learn a few basic actually practical social rules and have a modicum of insight into my own personality. i've been in all kinds of therapy and never been helped by it.

    knowing this, how might i become more interpersonally effective/manipulative? how do you decide what to information to try to get out of people? and how to get it? how do you decide what information to trust them with-- what information is effective to share?

    i find myself being manipulated a lot. i'm in a position to be abused because i'm a dependent disabled person and rely on my parents for money. they are an unhealthy enfj and a healthy, mean entj-- very different types of abusive narcissists. these are the people its most pressing for me to learn how to manipulate back because they don't care about my reality, feelings, access needs. i'm not dependent on them emotionally at all. i don't care what they think for ego reasons. but materially speaking, what they think of me directly influences my quality of life. most of the manipulation/interpersonal effectiveness i will use is to survive. i don't want to know how to be rich, or be loved by everyone, or getting much more than my needs (including safety, happiness, mental health needs) met.

    is there some kind of guide or advice you can give me for how to manipulate people in general? people in different emotional states? people with different vulnerabilities? the 16 types?-- how to guess which type someone is, or narrow it down enough to pick something most likely to work with them (for instance, picking up on strong Fe, and knowing what to do with that information)? or what to ask to find out their vulnerability points and what to do with that info? how to get them to trust you/like you/want to impress you, predicting which one will be most effective to work at? which one will give you what you want with this person? can you lead me to good scripts for what to say or ask/or how to write them myself? specific rules? practical advice? rituals or habits i might adopt? the advice of practicing, of putting yourself out there, that ive gotten has not helped me. i actually constantly put myself out there in a variety of situations, and am incapable of learning certain things by practice, because of my developmental disorder.

    p.s. i'm pretty misanthropic. in addition to not caring what people think of me, i distrust people indiscriminately. in order to get my needs met i know i need to be able to trust some people, or some people in some contexts, to be smarter about it. i know what i really distrust is my own capacity for extroverted thinking, my own insight, and my own ability to recognize attempts at manipulation and be better at it than the person who is trying to manipulate me.

    oddly enough, despite being an empath and terrible at manipulation and avoiding it more than 95 percent of people probably do, people have called me manipulative and lacking empathy. i think it's because i say things that are incriminating, and because on the rare occasion i stop saying exactly whats on mind, and instead decide to try to influence someone, i'm glaringly bad at it.

    i'm pretty sure i'm an unusual enfp with stronger introverted than extroverted thinking by the way. Ne, Fi, Ti, Si. quite dysfunctional.
    Last edited by extrovertedhermit; 08-30-2015 at 11:28 PM.

  4. #514
    ENTJ - The Executives

    seeing as that you say you are on the spectrum you are going to have fact that you admittedly struggle with social context working against you when trying to "manipulate" people. Depending on your level of social functionality give you blanket advice may be a bad thing as what you pointed out is that people interpret your behavior a XYZ when it really isn't

    Having worked with severely autistic I think you have a serious challenge against you depending on where you fall on the spectrum. Importantly is that you design systems to play to your strengths and less to your weaknesses. By doing that you will create situations that allow for positive feedback loops instead of negative ones.

    As for your parents that situation is an equally tough one. What I saw with the parents I dealt with was a mixture of general frustration, insane compassion, sadness, and miss directed anger. Mental challenges can be harder for a parent to cope with as its not something like a broken leg that you fix, there is not always an obvious "oh you are missing a hand" understanding of others for the situation and that means a lot of explaining to others what is going on. Not everyone is strong enough to handle this for years on end, plus for some there isn't that moment where their child will "grow up and have a life of their own" so some resent their kids as of the kids are punishing them by being this way. I have watched one parent literally bounce back and forth from loving her son to hating him multiple times in an hour and you could see how it was mentally ripping her apart. Now I am not saying I understand or think parents being cruel to a kid who has already had lifes deck stacked against him is ok but I do see how it can happen.

    So I would certainly need to know more about your ability to be able to help problem solve this situation, but I will say to seem fairly aware of what is going on and the fact that you are trying to figure out a way to make it better is a impressive step as you need to see a fairly big social picture to start this journy.

  5. #515

    Quote Originally Posted by extrovertedhermit View Post
    how do i become more interpersonally effective (keeping in mind/accepting my personality type, idealism, neurotype, lack of capacity for attention to detail)?


    i'm new to this website. if this is way too much for one question, if you feel qualified to answer but not motivated to answer all of this, answer a part of it, and if you seem very good at this stuff, i'll pay you to help me answer the rest of it! seeking manipulation coaches!

    i'm an aspie that doesn't pick up on facial expressions, subtleties, and nuance. things that work for me are all literal, including practical rules, rituals, scripts (i can't think fast on my feet), and learning about myers briggs (i have to ask someone their type otherwise i won't get how they work differently than me). out in the world, this stuff isn't taught to people in my learning style. the social rules that are said out loud are usually not the ones people actually follow, and the people who are the best at social rules usually know not to say them out loud. so it's taken me 22 years to learn a few basic actually practical social rules and have a modicum of insight into my own personality. i've been in all kinds of therapy and never been helped by it.

    knowing this, how might i become more interpersonally effective/manipulative? how do you decide what to information to try to get out of people? and how to get it? how do you decide what information to trust them with-- what information is effective to share?

    i find myself being manipulated a lot. i'm in a position to be abused because i'm a dependent disabled person and rely on my parents for money. they are an unhealthy enfj and a healthy, mean entj-- very different types of abusive narcissists. these are the people its most pressing for me to learn how to manipulate back because they don't care about my reality, feelings, access needs. i'm not dependent on them emotionally at all. i don't care what they think for ego reasons. but materially speaking, what they think of me directly influences my quality of life. most of the manipulation/interpersonal effectiveness i will use is to survive. i don't want to know how to be rich, or be loved by everyone, or getting much more than my needs (including safety, happiness, mental health needs) met.

    is there some kind of guide or advice you can give me for how to manipulate people in general? people in different emotional states? people with different vulnerabilities? the 16 types?-- how to guess which type someone is, or narrow it down enough to pick something most likely to work with them (for instance, picking up on strong Fe, and knowing what to do with that information)? or what to ask to find out their vulnerability points and what to do with that info? how to get them to trust you/like you/want to impress you, predicting which one will be most effective to work at? which one will give you what you want with this person? can you lead me to good scripts for what to say or ask/or how to write them myself? specific rules? practical advice? rituals or habits i might adopt? the advice of practicing, of putting yourself out there, that ive gotten has not helped me. i actually constantly put myself out there in a variety of situations, and am incapable of learning certain things by practice, because of my developmental disorder.

    p.s. i'm pretty misanthropic. in addition to not caring what people think of me, i distrust people indiscriminately. in order to get my needs met i know i need to be able to trust some people, or some people in some contexts, to be smarter about it. i know what i really distrust is my own capacity for extroverted thinking, my own insight, and my own ability to recognize attempts at manipulation and be better at it than the person who is trying to manipulate me.

    oddly enough, despite being an empath and terrible at manipulation and avoiding it more than 95 percent of people probably do, people have called me manipulative and lacking empathy. i think it's because i say things that are incriminating, and because on the rare occasion i stop saying exactly whats on mind, and instead decide to try to influence someone, i'm glaringly bad at it.

    i'm pretty sure i'm an unusual enfp with stronger introverted than extroverted thinking by the way. Ne, Fi, Ti, Si. quite dysfunctional.
    It seems that you are under a lot of stress, and I am sorry for that.

    With my limited knowledge on asperger's syndrome, I would highly recommend going off the forum and talking to an acclaimed licensed professional, specifically a speech pathologist and a behavioral therapist. If one therapist doesn't not work, you have to try another.

    Kudos to you for analyzing in this much detail and taking the step to further solidify your skills. Never give up!

  6. #516
    ENTJ - The Executives

    @Rydark , Hermit says he's been to all kinds of therapy and it was no help. For many they are forced into counseling and that is like being forced into any relationship, it has a very low chance of effectiveness esp if one of the parties actively doesn't want to be there.

    I do agree that a trained professional may be able to offer better and more knowledge based advice, but ultimately if Hermit find useful info here that they are willing to entertain than it may be a more useful venue.

    Reading again the OP. @extrovertedhermit I think given your condition typing you may be harder as the questions may not account for your social perception. Finding the right person to administer your MBTI test will be important as otherwise I suspect you will get misleading results.


    As to the bulk of your post
    The challenge is that each social setting is not always a repeatable routine. The simplest example of this is that when greeting someone, some people I verbally greet only, others I shake hands with, some I do a more casual touch, and others I might hug. The way in which I greet someone is not only based on who they are, but on where we are and what is going on at that time. Many times I do know at least a background of what is going on and who will be there and where, but there is still a lot of information that is processed in the moment. From body language, to word choice, to tone inflection and drastic changes in these areas will effect my decisions and interactions.

    Probably the best place to start would be to do a little bit of reading up on body language. There are plenty of good books out there that can teach you the basics but a couple things to remember.

    1st: Most people aren't actively aware of what their body language is saying so statements like " Joe, your body language suggests that you are feeling defensive. Why are you feeling defensive?" are something you want to avoid. At best it will cause an awkward moment between you and the other person but may open up the conversation, worst you call them out on something they were trying to hide and now they will act aggressively because they are uncomfortable that you knew what they didn't want you to.

    2nd: Body language isn't a standalone information stream. Ideally you want to use it like vocal inflection with words. I am sure you have heard someone say they are "fine" but really mean that they are pissed off or sad. What makes body language useful is most people don't actively lie with it, so it can be used to validate the meaning/intention of someones words.

    Feel free to ask questions and I will do my best to post up.

  7. #517

    @myGTI There is no substitute for one on one and face to face interaction. Although all opportunities should be seized, the forum should be considered as an auxiliary option.

    Ultimately it's all up to @extrovertedhermit .

  8. #518
    Unknown

    Do any other ENTJs/Te-doms have difficulty not automatically correcting the factually incorrect?

    I'm trying to work on this, but I want to know if this is a me thing, or if it's type related. (Again, this doesn't mean that I shouldn't or won't work on it.)

  9. #519

    Quote Originally Posted by koalaroo View Post
    Do any other ENTJs/Te-doms have difficulty not automatically correcting the factually incorrect?

    I'm trying to work on this, but I want to know if this is a me thing, or if it's type related. (Again, this doesn't mean that I shouldn't or won't work on it.)
    Yeah, I still cringe at it, but I have worked hard to banish the phrase; "Well, actually..." from my vocabulary. I get tired of being the worlds "fact checker" and sometimes people just need to be wrong.

  10. #520
    ENTJ - The Executives

    Quote Originally Posted by koalaroo View Post
    Do any other ENTJs/Te-doms have difficulty not automatically correcting the factually incorrect?

    I'm trying to work on this, but I want to know if this is a me thing, or if it's type related. (Again, this doesn't mean that I shouldn't or won't work on it.)
    Well...I get paid for it.


     
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