[ENTP] A Hard Typing: Help Me Prove ENTP is Right or Wrong - Page 3

A Hard Typing: Help Me Prove ENTP is Right or Wrong

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This is a discussion on A Hard Typing: Help Me Prove ENTP is Right or Wrong within the ENTP Forum- The Visionaries forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Originally Posted by sereneone She is intellectually very confident and now you have me worried because I actually clearly do ...

  1. #21

    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    She is intellectually very confident and now you have me worried because I actually clearly do not recognize Fi behavior well. Is there a place I can see people actually behaving with Fi as an auxiliary function? I need to better observe the difference between Fi+Te behavior versus Ti+Fe, because at this point you have me convinced I cannot make the distinction, and that is critical here.

    Just as a quick aside, could you look at the post #11 in this thread, where I propose specific questions to her to determine if Fi or Fe is stronger? I want your input on whether those questions would be answered truthfully or is there something in either how I am asking the questions, or something about who I am at this point ("untrusted"), that would generate a misleading response? What do you make of the fact that she has "good use" of both Fi and Fe in her cognitive functions test? Keys2Cognition's test not only supplies a numerical ranking for each personality attribute such as Fi and Fe, but they also supply a frequency of use rating that is "good use", "average use", or "limited use". As you would expect, people normally only show good use of their primary characteristics and that helps a lot in typing them. So an Ne+Fi+Te+Si individual would normally score "good use" in at least the first three dimensions of personality and then "average" or "limited" for all the others. The person I am discussing was, in an ENFP stack:
    Ne (Good) + Fi (Good) + Te (Average) + Si (Average)
    and then in an ENTP stack:
    Ne (Good) + Ti (Good) + Fe (Good) + Se (Good)

    So I do notice in the above that she was "good" in all ENTP dimensions but not in all of the ENFP stack. But also notice that she was "good" in both levels of feeling, so she has some very unusual dimension to her ability to feel. And of course I have to point out that her Ti is higher use than Te, so if she is ENFP she is not developing her Te and has somehow freakishly developed her Ti extensively.

    So now I am actually in trouble here. lol Assuming you are right about her being ENFP, then all this time I have been brute-forcing a lot of blunt thinking with her, and I have incorrectly been reading her high intellect level to mean that she was a thinker and we were dealing with each other on that level. If she was actually a feeler with highly developed Te that she uses as a shield to hide her feelings, then what may have been happening is I have slowly been pissing her off or building up some kind of frustration or maybe just draining away my reserve of trust. I think you are right she does not trust me.

    And continuing those ideas, her initial interest in my talking about her photos probably was nothing more than very primitive vanity. She wanted to hear me look at the photo or photos that she personally feels best represents her true self, and she wanted to hear me make some positive comments about that. What she got instead is some INTJ Carl-Jung-Wannabe who expounded on too-personal aspects of her personality. She did not trust me enough to tell me why this was too much for her, so she is deflecting everything by trying to make some shallow remarks that sound superficially positive.

    Let us assume the worst case about that personality exercise I did with her photos and assume she was offended. What is my best response at this point to at minimum diffuse the tension around that issue? Is there anything I can say that would get her to open up about why she felt offended by it? I feel like I am flying blind here because I do not know this type well.
    There is a big problem out there with people thinking that MBTI “thinking” and intelligence or IQ are the same thing. This is not the case. You can’t think of decision making either being “emotions” or “intelligence”. Instead it’s how you experience things which together with your perceiving functions create a framework for decision making. Notice the ENFPs hated the idea of TE “masking” Fi. Lol. Fi is always there, it’s just that it is hard to understand introverted functions. Introverted functions just aren’t expressed in the same way as extroverted functions. I think the best way for you to understand it is to think of your own experience and thinking. I couldn’t tell many types other than INTJs (and of course INFPs) to appeal to their own experience. So you know how a huge part of your intelligence or thinking actually comes from Ni? Well, a huge part of Ne intelligence is in their Ne. Decision making is Fi-Te, just like yours is, except in the opposite order. Fi is a framework of what is important personally. It includes the value of human souls to a high extent since Fi is all about finding meaning. I almost don’t know if we even have the right language to communicate this meaning with each other (but if I think of every INFJ I know it’s what they heavily crave and need from me). You and I both know Te. I’m 42 years old so facts and standards and what feels like universal principals/reasons. Making decisions based on these is Te, however Fi comes first for ENFPs. Fi means meaning, value, beauty, individualism, the importance of a human soul, it values its own feelings as precious and other people’s feelings as precious. I’ve said before to ENTPs just think of feelings like they are facts and include them in your reasoning mix as you’ve got it, but I don’t know if that is possible because ENTPs sometimes tell me that they don’t feel that much and INTJs too have told me that their childhood did not include many feelings which 2 people told me actually means they don’t have many memories of their childhood due to this— I don’t know if that was just them or what—. But yes, Fi means powerful emotions and value placed upon these feelings, as they are predictable and consistent for a Feeler— with also a priority placed on understanding others and on personal growth to feel good, usually kind behavior helps us feel good. I don’t know. I hope this lifts the corner on it to you, but you cannot assume that Feelers are not as intelligent or intellectual.
    sereneone and MRaccoon thanked this post.

  2. #22

    Quote Originally Posted by Alesha View Post
    you cannot assume that Feelers are not as intelligent or intellectual.
    Good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alesha View Post
    Fi means meaning, value, beauty, individualism, the importance of a human soul, values its own feelings as precious and other peopleís feelings as precious. Iíve said before to ENTPs just think of feelings like they are facts and include them in your reasoning mix as youíve got it, but I donít know if that is possible because ENTPs sometimes tell me that they donít feel that much and INTJs too have told me that their childhood did not include many feelings which 2 people told me actually means they donít have many memories of their childhood due to thisó I donít know if that was just them or wható. But yes, Fi means powerful emotions and value placed upon these feelings, as they are predictable and consistent for a Feeleró with also a priority placed on understanding others and on personal growth to feel good, usually kind behavior helps us feel good.
    Well, Sereneone, there is your test to discriminate between Fi and Ti.

    ENTPs value individualism and individual freedom extremely strongly, but the other Fi things that Alesha mentioned (meaning, value, beauty, the importance of a human soul, valuing your own feelings as precious and other peopleís feelings as precious), an ENTP will have the tendency to walk roughshod over these. That is an ENTP/ENFP and Ti/Fi test there for you. Watch for signs that she scoffs at such things; if she is ENTP then I think she *will* definitely give off such signs when faced with a person who talks to her about things like "the importance of a human soul" (or could that be different for female ENTPs, what do you think @Geonerd ?). If she engages you in serious and interested conversation on such points, willing to go infinitely deep in exploring "the importance of a human soul", then she is Fi and ENFP.

    To Alesha, regarding feelings/emotions:

    Finding meaning: Ti people do not find meaning in emotion/feelings. They find meaning by constructing models of how the world works and through a process of trial and error arriving at models that work. There is no emotion in that, only rational thought and experiment. And from the perspective of a Ti person, emotion/feeling actually gets in the way of this kind of finding meaning (because it warps your rational thinking and your perception of measurement data). So in order to find his type of meaning, a Ti person will try to suppress emotion/feelings.

    Value: I think Ti people are very far from placing value on emotions. They are the reverse of placing value on emotions. Ti people distrust feelings and emotions. "We Ti people" actually feel good when we can use reason to get out of emotion-based viewpoints; this feels liberating to Ti people.

    Of course Ti people, being humans, do experience feelings/emotions. But Ti people automatically distrust emotions. There is this late-renaissance author Baltasar GraciŠn who on emotions wrote something like: You must be like a rider on a horse, where the horse is your emotions and you are the "Man of Reason" who is making *use* of the raw power of emotions by channeling that energy in productive directions. This strikes me as possibly a very Ti viewpoint (what do you think, Alesha?). Example: I used this method to get my freelancing business started. The emotion was my feeling of being completely hemmed in by working as an employee. Without this emotion of frustration/anger/depression at working as an employee, I doubt I could have found the energy for the work needed to break out of the employee life and to start as a freelancer (the work being to create my website and start finding freelancing customers). I mean: the work was a way to vent (channel) my feelings of frustration/anger/depression at working as an employee, and also simultaneously to do that channeling of emotions in a way that I am comfortable with as a Ti, namely to use the energy in a productive way. I doubt whether as a Ti I could have found any other way to release that emotion. The hard work in starting my freelancing business was like a release valve that allowed my pent-up frustration/anger/depression at working as an employee to escape.
    Last edited by MRaccoon; 07-09-2018 at 12:18 AM.

  3. #23

    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    How common would that be for an ENFP to find significant overlap to ENTP?
    I think that this would not be uncommon at all.

    I think that the ENFP and ENTP types do show some significant areas of overlap, in the sense that in some ways they think very similarly, and in the sense that as a result there is a significant probability of mistyping between the two.

    I think an ENTP is most similar to the following other MBTI types: INTP and ENFP. There is a significant overlap between ENTP/INTP and also between ENTP/ENFP. Myself, I am in the ENTP/INTP overlap area more than in the ENTP/ENFP overlap area; I guess that means that my Ti is relatively strong for an ENTP. For other ENTP people, placed at a different point in "MBTI space", they may be located more in the ENTP/ENFP overlap area (speculating, I guess that might happen for example when their Ne is very much stronger than their Ti).

    I am going with Alesha on the hypothesis that it seems more likely at present that your friend is ENFP than ENTP. And also I am hypothesizing that your friend is located in "ENFP space" relatively near to the ENFP/ENTP overlap zone, I mean the part of "ENFP space" where the similarities with ENTPs are relatively strong (but with her still being ENFP). Arguing from symmetry, maybe for ENFPs there are similar overlap areas for ENFPs (similar as is the case for ENTPs), namely for ENFPs on the one side a similarity to ENTPs and on the other side a similarity to INFPs. I mean not all ENFPs are the same. Some ENFPs might be somewhat similar to INFPs (maybe when their Fi is relatively strong), and other ENFPs might be somewhat more similar to ENTPs (maybe when their Ne is very much stronger than their Fi).
    Last edited by MRaccoon; 07-09-2018 at 12:30 AM.
    sereneone and Llyralen thanked this post.

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  5. #24

    Quote Originally Posted by MRaccoon View Post
    I think that this would not be uncommon at all.

    I think that the ENFP and ENTP types do show some significant areas of overlap, in the sense that in some ways they think very similarly, and in the sense that as a result there is a significant probability of mistyping between the two.

    I think an ENTP is most similar to the following other MBTI types: INTP and ENFP. There is a significant overlap between ENTP/INTP and also between ENTP/ENFP. Myself, I am in the ENTP/INTP overlap area more than in the ENTP/ENFP overlap area; I guess that means that my Ti is relatively strong for an ENTP. For other ENTP people, placed at a different point in "MBTI space", they may be located more in the ENTP/ENFP overlap area (speculating, I guess that might happen for example when their Ne is very much stronger than their Ti).

    I am going with Alesha on the hypothesis that it seems more likely at present that your friend is ENFP than ENTP. And also I am hypothesizing that your friend is located in "ENFP space" relatively near to the ENFP/ENTP overlap zone, I mean the part of "ENFP space" where the similarities with ENTPs are relatively strong (but with her still being ENFP). Arguing from symmetry, maybe for ENFPs there are simular overlap areas for ENFPs (similar as is the case for ENTPs), namely for ENFPs on the one side a similarity to ENTPs and on the other side a similarity to INFPs. I mean not all ENFPs are the same. Some ENFPs might be somewhat similar to INFPs (maybe when their Fi is relatively strong), and other ENFPs might be somewhat more similar to ENTPs (maybe when their Ne is very much stronger than their Fi).
    Exactly as I see it. =). With both posts, actually. There are situations when feeling decisions are more appropriate (usually in relationships) and there are times when thinking preferences are more appropriate. We in this conversation are those for whom T and F decisions are more in the middle, more balanced, and more likely to have Fi and Te or Ti and Fe working together and able to switch depending on what the situation calls for, especially as we get older. What we don’t have is an information balance between taking in info and organizing info. But I like us. =)

  6. #25

    Quote Originally Posted by Alesha View Post
    Exactly as I see it. =)
    (Off topic.) So you actually indeed see an overlap area between ENFPs and INFPs?, is that correct?

    That would be interesting because that would seem to indicate that the four Ne types are not equally similar to each other.

    Namely: the stongest similarities between the four Ne types would be pairwise, namely the four pairs INFP/INTP, INTP/ENTP, ENTP/ENFP, and ENFP/INFP. And the "cross connections" INFP/ENTP and INTP/ENFP would be significantly less similar. Alesha, how do you view the similarity between ENFPs and INTPs? Are they "kin" to you (in the way they think and operate), or are they "strangers"?


    Quote Originally Posted by Alesha View Post
    There are situations when feeling decisions are more appropriate (usually in relationships) and there are times when thinking preferences are more appropriate. We in this conversation are those for whom T and F decisions are more in the middle, more balanced, and more likely to have Fi and Te or Ti and Fe working together and able to switch depending on what the situation calls for, especially as we get older.
    (On topic again.) I'm an "older" person as well, and I agree on the TiFe/FiTe balance. When I was younger, I truly completely hated F; but now I simply use it.

    I'm not sure I really switch between using either Ti or Fe; I think it is more accurate to say that I use both at the same time. Ti remains the most important for me; I mean my goals are basically still very much Ti. I think I use Fe mostly as a means to an end; for example a good communication is not only more pleasant but also more useful. The pleasantness of the communication is for my Ti goals. But maybe an external observer (who doesn't yet know me very well) could sometimes have a hard time discerning the Ti from the Fe (probably a big factor in that is because Fe is extraverted hence is outwardly the more visible thing).

    I also am not sure that F is invariably always the right mode of operation in relationships. Because Ti is, I think, very good for conflict resolution (seeking to understand the other person).

    How does the FiTe balancing go for an ENFP? I mean: From an Fi perspective, what is the rationale for using Te? Would a young ENFP also be likely to really dislike T, and discover Te only later in life, and if so what does the discovery (that Te is useful) look like from an ENFP perspective? My definition of "Te" so far is: Organizing things in the external world and planning things in the external world, would you agree? So an older ENFP would (I think) be stronger at planning things in the external world than an ENTP. (And to Sereneone: might therefore even give the impression of being more T than an ENTP.) But my question is: what is the Fi rationale why this external planning and organizing is useful? Is the rationale that this is a way to help people interact well with each other?


    Quote Originally Posted by Alesha View Post
    What we don’t have is an information balance between taking in info and organizing info.
    Hmm, I think that what I have problems with is organizing things in the external world. I think organizing information in my head is not a problem for me. I think I automatically organize and classify everything that comes in. In that sense, Ti is (I think) a complete organization machine. I can not not organize things in this sense. What I have trouble with though is planning and organizing things in the external world; that is not automatic at all and costs me huge amounts of energy. The worst of the worst is bookkeeping and tax returns; doing these is almost completely impossible for me.

    So you are saying here that ENFPs have trouble organizing, in their heads, the information that comes in from outside all the time? That is very interesting. Because that points to another significant difference between Fi and Ti. So it seems that "T" is maybe better defined as the organizing function (organizing as in organizing on a rational basis). Ti is organizing things in your head, and Te is organizing things in the external world.

    What does Fi do with all the external information that comes in all the time? Do Fi people at all build models, similarly to what Ti people do (seeking impersonal models valid eternally and for all people)? For example (speculating): do Fi people perhaps build models for what are the right ethical and moral ways to behave?


    Quote Originally Posted by Alesha View Post
    But I like us. =)
    Me too:-).
    Last edited by MRaccoon; 07-09-2018 at 03:48 AM.
    Llyralen thanked this post.

  7. #26

    Quote Originally Posted by MRaccoon View Post
    (Off topic.) So you actually indeed see an overlap area between ENFPs and INFPs?, is that correct?
    ENFP is the most closely related to INFP of any of the types, and many of us often wonder if we are INFP, it’s our biggest mis-type. INFP has all the same functions, just in different order. Your closest relationship is INFP. Our second mistype is ENTP. It’s rare for ENFP to mistype as INTP. Our third mistype is INFJ, with NFTS in the same order, it’s easy to feel we are so much like them sometimes.
    I have a INFP sister and a INTP sister, a INFP husband and a INTP daughter. You are asking the right girl about Ne. My son is ENFP like me. I usually say it’s where we all get a shared sense of humor. I get along great with both sisters, and my sisters get along well too. I do ask my INTP sister questions about Ts. My husband’s good friend is ENTP... yeah it’s all a Ne party at our house I guess.
    That would be interesting because that would seem to indicate that the four Ne types are not equally similar to each other.
    Namely: the stongest similarities between the four Ne types would be pairwise, namely the four pairs INFP/INTP, INTP/ENTP, ENTP/ENFP, and ENFP/INFP. And the "cross connections" INFP/ENTP and INTP/ENFP would be significantly less similar. Alesha, how do you view the similarity between ENFPs and INTPs? Are they "kin" to you (in the way they think and operate), or are they "strangers"?
    Well, my INTP sister and I share a lot of things in common that the INFP sister doesn’t and that’s been interesting for me to realize since growing up the INFP sister was the closest for sure, but the INTP sister and I are both into science and research and comedy, classic literature, sci-Fi and fantasy. She and I both mostly live in our imagination. The INFP has, interestingly enough, not been interested in great literature and isn’t into science. She is into crafts and rock hounding and stuff I would call more Si-related. We all are very into music and the INFP and I are into film. My daughter’s INTP is a bit more foreign, she’s so so introverted, but all good there too. When I go over to the INTP forum and they are talking about something feeling related then I get a shock. Also in our 20s when I would ask my INTP sister what her feelings were about someone or something there would usually be an argument with me feeling like I was pressing her into a corner for the simplest thing saying, “I’m just asking you to say how you feel about dad, damn it! How hard can that freaking be?” And her acting like a wild cat denying that there were feelings. So when I learned about MBTI when I was 25, I thought you Ti people just left feelings out of decisions. I didn’t know that you guys don’t recognize them/understand them and sometimes don’t even feel them. I got seriously one of the biggest shocks of my life 2 weeks after joining PerC and going over to the ENTP forum and you guys were talking about how you didn’t know if you felt anything but anger and/or lust. I was floored. Here I was knowing people were different and adapting easily to them like ENFPs do and all the time thinking that at their core they had all the emotions I do, just preferred to suppress them....but I had no idea how different. I don’t know, I still have a hard time believing it. Even Fe, which I’ve kind of trained myself to understand and feel, is NOT the rich emotions that feel like “me” always bubbling up giving me my code in life and telling me what is good, what is valuable, what is precious.

    (On topic again.) I'm an "older" person as well, and I agree on the TiFe/FiTe balance. When I was younger, I truly completely hated F; but now I simply use it.

    I'm not sure I really switch between using either Ti or Fe; I think it is more accurate to say that I use both at the same time. Ti remains the most important for me; I mean my goals are basically still very much Ti. I think I use Fe mostly as a means to an end; for example a good communication is not only more pleasant but also more useful. The pleasantness of the communication is for my Ti goals. But maybe an external observer (who doesn't yet know me very well) could sometimes have a hard time discerning the Ti from the Fe (probably a big factor in that is because Fe is extraverted hence is outwardly the more visible thing).

    I also am not sure that F is invariably always the right mode of operation in relationships. Because Ti is, I think, very good for conflict resolution (seeking to understand the other person).

    How does the FiTe balancing go for an ENFP? I mean: From an Fi perspective, what is the rationale for using Te? Would a young ENFP also be likely to really dislike T, and discover Te only later in life, and if so what does the discovery (that Te is useful) look like from an ENFP perspective? My definition of "Te" so far is: Organizing things in the external world and planning things in the external world, would you agree? So an older ENFP would (I think) be stronger at planning things in the external world than an ENTP. (And to Sereneone: might therefore even give the impression of being more T than an ENTP.) But my question is: what is the Fi rationale why this external planning and organizing is useful? Is the rationale that this is a way to help people interact well with each other?
    .
    I’m 42, btw and Te started to appear more strongly in my 20’s and I remember it really kicking in when my kids were born at 28 (twins). If you check out the ENFP forum right now you would see that we all love our TE so much. When Te kicks in it all of a sudden gives us power to make the things we visualized possible. Fi wouldn’t on its own. Fi is hard to express and is more expressed in music or art or writing, but with Te all of a sudden if someone crossed our values, like did something we didn’t think was okay, instead of meekly not feeling valued, we were able to now say, “Not okay.” and we really come into our own being able to show our honesty and authenticity. We still want to feel liked, we are too sensitive to wield Te like a dom or aux but we use it to stand up for our Fi values (which is yes, exactly what you said, it is a moral code of ethics along with the kind of logic we use (I’d have to know more about Ti than I do for a good description/comparison). Also I feel like I can say I’m very good at system analysis, seeing the big picture, epidemiology stuff and research, but Ne is my driving force with research and ENTPs usually match me there. The external world organization is the Si. No problems, just like you, with arranging it in my head except that Si prioritizes and Ne dom just wants to know freaking everything. So yes, I think some of it falls through a se My creed, “Tell me EVERYTHING.” =)
    Hmm, I think that what I have problems with is organizing things in the external world. I think organizing information in my head is not a problem for me.
    Except—-do you actually feel like you remember well even 1/2 of what you read? I usually learn the concepts well and concepts stick easily and then after that it’s more like “Well, I know where to find that fact if I need it, plus now I know it exists and I found out about 5 other things that weren’t on my radar before. What did Ne doms do before the internet? Now if I forget the name of something there is Wikipedia. I’m sure my— okay, I know, my INFP husband thinks I’m way overloaded on the volume of information I take in and—lol— if I tell him about it he remembers the names of things better than I do. Lol. So I’m always like, “Honey, what was the name of that company 8 was telling you about...?” But I remember numbers like a charm, though. Between us two we can memorize addresses. Heehee. I have had systems of writing things down r organizing at times. Yeah...stuff like paper work or even just cleaning seems so daunting. I’m like you, once I get started I’m okay. I heard we over-estimate the work of these tasks. I have to get something fun on audio so I can do the cleaning in auto-pilot.

    I think I automatically organize and classify everything that comes in. In that sense, Ti is (I think) a complete organization machine. I can not not organize things in this sense. What I have trouble with though is planning and organizing things in the external world; that is not automatic at all and costs me huge amounts of energy.

    What does Fi do with all the external information that comes in all the time? Do Fi people at all build models, similarly to what Ti people do (seeking impersonal models valid eternally and for all people)? For example (speculating): do Fi people perhaps build models for what are the right ethical and moral ways to behave?
    Yes, nailed it. =). But we are very live and let live usually, especially if it’s not a family member (any ENFP mom is going to teach her kids her morals, like how to treat others,) and have these standards for our life partner and closer friends, but we tend to encourage people to follow their own Fi (lol and then learn from MBTI that some people don’t have Fi, in which case we would say follow your Ti.). Basically we like encouraging people to do what feels right, makes them happy, or reach their highest potential. Fi can usually be summed up by the golden rule, bu5 everyone has their own version of that. The real reason is because we understand people by putting ourselves in their place but that get s very sophisticated over time to where we adapt to others while not letting it take a chunk out of our independence and our own Fi. Okay, your turn. I would like to understand Ti more.
    Last edited by Llyralen; 07-09-2018 at 10:04 PM.
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  8. #27
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by Geonerd View Post
    Really though, how easily offended does she get when you guys discuss or debate a topic? I have not known a single ENFP that does not get offended (or get quiet-which means they are offended) when you debate the opposing side to their stance because their stance is usually so tied to their personal feelings they feel you are personally attacking them. An ENTP can debate with almost a third party view of their own stance (sometimes we can actually debate a side that isn't even our personal view).

    Really, just in general, is she offended easily? On the surface a female ENTP and ENFP can look similar because there is just more feeling than the difference between a female ENFP and a male ENTP (which the MBTI tend to describe) but when it comes down to it, a female ENTP just does not get personally offended easily.
    ^ what she said :)
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