[ENTP] A Hard Typing: Help Me Prove ENTP is Right or Wrong

A Hard Typing: Help Me Prove ENTP is Right or Wrong

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This is a discussion on A Hard Typing: Help Me Prove ENTP is Right or Wrong within the ENTP Forum- The Visionaries forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; I have a friend I am trying to type in the MBTI system. I wrote up the difficulties in typing ...

  1. #1

    A Hard Typing: Help Me Prove ENTP is Right or Wrong

    I have a friend I am trying to type in the MBTI system. I wrote up the difficulties in typing her here. The basic problem is that she has a cognitive function stack that is arguably something like Ti+Ne+Fi+Se. But there is no MBTI type with that stack, so I am having to find a "best fit".

    After much thinking, I believe ENTP is the best fit for her. This makes Ne+Ti her dominant functions. The problem with ENTP as a type is that the ENTP cognitive function stack is Ne+Ti+Fe+Si. This would require her to be Fe in the tertiary function, when the test results in the linked post seem to show that Fi is a strong function for her. She is also strongly more Se than Si, but this is not so important since it is an inferior function.

    I could view her as some kind of ENTP / ENFP hybrid, with an ENTP preference. But does MBTI allow for that? I could view her as an Ne+Ti dominant, and then just consider her Fi as a strong tertiary function that cannot be explained by MBTI. In the latter case, she would have to live without a type.

    What is the best way to describe and classify such an individual?



  2. #2

    The first thing I'd like to say is that whatever MBTI pigeon hole she fits in, she seems to be a well balanced person. I mean maybe the people who clearly fit one MBTI type are the "weird" ones.:-)

    The second thing is: In order for us to help you, you need to give us more raw data. I.e. some examples about what she actually acts like?

    How scheduling is she toward the external world? I.e.: Does she like to schedule and plan things for other people? Does she tend to tell other people what to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    She has some of the characteristics of an INTP, such as the ability to see some nuance of truth in many statements and an inability to make decisions around the complex models she builds. But she is clearly not a theoretician and is slightly more extrovert than introvert.
    How is she on the point of handling criticism? When someone criticizes these complex models she builds, then does she tend to take the criticism personally? (If so, that would indicate F.) Or does she like it when in a discussion people are not hesitant to utter criticism? (If so, that would indicate T.)


    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    She wears one of the too-cute ENTP top hats,
    As far as I know, ENFPs do that too.


    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    But she is clearly not a theoretician
    This sounds like clear data against "Ti".


    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    I could view her as some kind of ENTP / ENFP hybrid, with an ENTP preference. But does MBTI allow for that?
    I think the MBTI model does not allow for that. (Which may be simply because the MBTI model is wrong!! Please be aware that MBTI is only a model. The fact that the MBTI model exists does not mean that the real world necessarily has to follow that model.)

    In the MBTI, there are always two most important functions: the information-gathering function (N or S) and the decision-making function (T or F). And also, one of these two (info-gathering function and decision-making function) has to be introverted, and the other has to be extraverted. MBTI does not allow for anything else.

    ENTP means: primary = Ne and secondary = Ti (and third = Fe).
    ENFP means: primary = Ne and secondary = Fi (and third = Te).

    The "ENTP / ENFP hybrid" does not fit the MBTI model because the secondary and third functions in the one are TiFe and in the other they are FiTe: the point is that the directions of the T and F are reversed. ("Direction" meaning: extraverted or introverted.)

    Ti and Te are rather different in nature, as are Fi and Fe. Namely: Extraverted Te wants to plan and schedule things in the external world, and introverted Ti wants to build theoretical models. Extraverted Fe wants harmony in the external world, and introverted Fi seems (??) to want to build models for how the world should be from an ethical/moral perspective (the last phrase is speculation, I'm not an expert on Fi). From observing your friend, you can observe for yourself where she fits. Don't rely exlusively on tests created by other people. Tests make errors too. (I think the best way to type people is to have a good understanding of MBTI yourself, and then to observe for yourself.)

    ---
    Going on the info you have given so far, I would guess that your friend would be more likely be an ENFP than an ENTP (for the reasons I mentioned above). But that is only a guess, and I do not have enough data for a good analysis. Please give us more data on how she actually behaves.

    One additional idea might be to post your question on the ENFP forum as well.

    Good luck,
    -- MR
    Last edited by MRaccoon; 07-02-2018 at 04:44 AM.

  3. #3

    Quote Originally Posted by MRaccoon View Post
    [Regarding her being similar to an INTP and seeing truth in many things....]
    How is she on the point of handling criticism? When someone criticizes these complex models she builds, then does she tend to take the criticism personally? (If so, that would indicate F.) Or does she like it when in a discussion people are not hesitant to utter criticism? (If so, that would indicate T.)
    She handles the criticism well and considers the criticism very objectively. She appears to be emotionally detached from her models.

    I will give one example of something she did that struck me as INTP-like and strongly argues at least for Ti. She showed me some photos of herself and I noticed that she actually appeared to be completely different people in each photo, both physically and in terms of the personality projected. The range of the expressions went from borderline withdrawn to borderline class valedictorian (friendly and outgoing). I wrote up a description of each of the different personalities I saw in her and asked for her opinion.

    Her response was something like "Wow, you made a lot of interesting points about me and I actually see aspects of every one of those descriptions in myself." This was not said in a way that suggested that she was not able to make up her mind or think. It was presented more in a confident way that suggested that she had eight more personalities hidden away too, and she had a very clear mental model of how those co-exist with the ones I described. And she wasn't going to elaborate any of that for me (probably because she assumed no one could understand it except her). At no point did she try to argue against any aspect of any of my descriptions. She just looked for the parts that were true, and she tried to positively take the ideas that were useful and build onto her preconceived model using that.

    Based on that exchange in isolation, I felt like I was on an INTP fish hook. :) But while her Ti is on display, it is definitely not primary. I see no obsession with building mental models and I am a lot more comfortable with her as an Ne+Ti (ENTP) than as a Ti+Ne (INTP).

    Her overall personality is too outgoing for an INTP, and her extroversion score was higher than introversion. From the Keys2Cognition test results:

    Extrovert Score (Ne+Se+Te+Fe) 125%
    Introvert Score (Ni+Si+Ti+Fi) 116%
    Intuitive Score (Ne+Ni) 55%
    Sensing Score (Se+Si) 55%
    Feeling Score (Fe+Fi) 67%
    Thinking Score (Te+Ti) 62%
    Judging Score (Fe+Fi+Te+Ti) 130%
    Perceiving Score (Ne+Ni+Se+Si) 111%
    A few comments on the above: her intuitive score is equal to her sensing score, but it is clear to me she is not a sensor and that is actually her weakest function. I'm actually not understanding what kept her intuition score so low. I think her self-imagination about her connection to the here-and-now is maybe more her fantasy than her actual behavior, so her test answers may not be objective enough.

    Her extrovert score is higher than introvert score, but she does have some crossover attributes here. She reports to me that her energy is drained by large groups of people. That certainly argues for an introvert, but she is comfortable being seen by and acting in front of large groups. I want to say she has a bipolar relationship with extroversion/introversion, and she seems to be comfortable switching between those roles. She feels wonderfully balanced to me (but I am an introvert, so...).

    Her judging score is higher than her perceiving score, but that is actually surprising because she seems much more interested in talking about ideas than doing them. She constantly promises uses of her time that she does not follow through on. She seems to like the idea of doing more than she can do and is not great at scheduling it all.

    The discrepancy between feeling and thinking scores I will put below.

    [Regarding whether someone can by a hybrid ENTP/ENFP....]
    I think the MBTI model does not allow for that. (Which may be simply because the MBTI model is wrong!! Please be aware that MBTI is only a model. The fact that the MBTI model exists does not mean that the real world necessarily has to follow that model.)

    In the MBTI, there are always two most important functions: the information-gathering function (N or S) and the decision-making function (T or F). And also, one of these two (info-gathering function and decision-making function) has to be introverted, and the other has to be extraverted. MBTI does not allow for anything else.

    ENTP means: primary = Ne and secondary = Ti (and third = Fe).
    ENFP means: primary = Ne and secondary = Fi (and third = Te).

    The "ENTP / ENFP hybrid" does not fit the MBTI model because the secondary and third functions in the one are TiFe and in the other they are FiTe: the point is that the directions of the T and F are reversed. ("Direction" meaning: extraverted or introverted.)

    Ti and Te are rather different in nature, as are Fi and Fe. Namely: Extraverted Te wants to plan and schedule things in the external world, and introverted Ti wants to build theoretical models. Extraverted Fe wants harmony in the external world, and introverted Fi seems (??) to want to build models for how the world should be from an ethical/moral perspective (the last phrase is speculation, I'm not an expert on Fi). From observing your friend, you can observe for yourself where she fits. Don't rely exlusively on tests created by other people. Tests make errors too. (I think the best way to type people is to have a good understanding of MBTI yourself, and then to observe for yourself.)
    Well, I do not think of either ENTP or ENFP as being schedulers. I see both types as having short attention spans and like the idea of doing something more than actually doing it. I do not see these as being types that enjoy planning or scheduling. That said, she has a busy life and seems pretty fully booked up on her time. She worries about her responsibilities a lot.

    So it is interesting in the results I just posted that her feeling score is above her thinking score. Combined with the post I originally authored that shows her Fi scoring higher than her Fe, that certainly gives validity to my claim that her Fi is very real and cannot just be discarded in order to squeeze her into the MBTI model. But then we have the unpleasant reality that this girl is either Ne+Ti+Fi or Ne+Fi+Ti. That is not possible in the MBTI model. I understand that. But she is one of those two, so that is just the reality.

    Deferring for a second that Ti+Fi and Fi+Ti cannot be auxiliary and tertiary functions, the more important question is whether Ti or Fi is dominant. I am still determining this, but I went through some good resources comparing ENFP to ENTP and on 90% of those comparison points she seems to align with ENTP (Ne+Ti) better. I feel her as an "idea driven" individual. Ideas seem to predominate. There is none of the ENFP "vulcan mind-meld" behavior where she would try to understand people in depth and have amazing insights into the behavior of others that she appears to just pull out of the void (because she saw right into their soul).

    I see her Fi, but I feel it acts in a similar way to my own Fi, and it feels very much tertiary.

    So if we want to just consider the dominant and auxiliary, I feel comfortable so far with her as Ne+Ti. That makes her ENTP by definition. But you can see her test results and her Fi is very strong and I believe I am dealing with an Ne+Ti+Fi. You made the point that she seems well balanced, and that is exactly the way it feels to me as well. She is a real freak of nature, in the best possible way.
    Last edited by sereneone; 07-02-2018 at 08:08 PM.

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  5. #4

    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    I will give one example of something she did that struck me as INTP-like and strongly argues at least for Ti. She showed me some photos of herself and I noticed that she actually appeared to be completely different people in each photo, both physically and in terms of the personality projected. The range of the expressions went from borderline withdrawn to borderline class valedictorian (friendly and outgoing).
    Ha, that sounds like me. I think this is a P thing, or an Ne thing. "We Ne types" just have no distance at all between ourselves and the external world. On the one side this means that we absorb everything directly, but it also means that we can not stop ourselves showing on our faces directly how we feel about things, I mean we can not hide it. It is actually a bit mystifying to me how "you Judging types":-) can be so poker-faced all the time.:-)


    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    I wrote up a description of each of the different personalities I saw in her and asked for her opinion.

    Her response was something like "Wow, you made a lot of interesting points about me and I actually see aspects of every one of those descriptions in myself." This was not said in a way that suggested that she was not able to make up her mind or think. It was presented more in a confident way that suggested that she had eight more personalities hidden away too, and she had a very clear mental model of how those co-exist with the ones I described. And she wasn't going to elaborate any of that for me (probably because she assumed no one could understand it except her). At no point did she try to argue against any aspect of any of my descriptions. She just looked for the parts that were true, and she tried to positively take the ideas that were useful and build onto her preconceived model using that.
    Very interesting. Indeed, I agree that this definitely indicates T. And indeed to me it sounds like ENTP behavior. (Curious to hear the opinions of other ENTPs on this.)


    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    A few comments on the above: her intuitive score is equal to her sensing score, but it is clear to me she is not a sensor and that is actually her weakest function. I'm actually not understanding what kept her intuition score so low. I think her self-imagination about her connection to the here-and-now is maybe more her fantasy than her actual behavior, so her test answers may not be objective enough.
    I have another hypothesis. Namely, the same thing (testing more S than I really am) happens also to me in MBTI tests. I think that in my case, the cause for this is that I analyze everything (my Ti function) combined with the circumstance that I believe that for good reasoning, one needs data (measurement data). Both combined therefore make me value raw data, which in turn makes it seem that I am a Sensing type. But internally, I am actually completely different from a Sensing type. (I conclude from this that the online tests are not extremely good at discerning TiNe from Se.)


    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    Her extrovert score is higher than introvert score, but she does have some crossover attributes here. She reports to me that her energy is drained by large groups of people. That certainly argues for an introvert, but she is comfortable being seen by and acting in front of large groups. I want to say she has a bipolar relationship with extroversion/introversion, and she seems to be comfortable switching between those roles. She feels wonderfully balanced to me (but I am an introvert, so...).
    I am the same. I love interacting with people, but I dislike large groups. (Maybe the reason is that you can not really discuss meaningfully in large groups; social group dynamics prevents it. In fact, I am a bit scared of how irrationally large groups tend to behave.) People say of both ENTPs and ENFPs that they are "the most introverted extraverts". I think it may be a result of N versus S. I would guess that ESTPs and ESFPs are probably more comfortable in large groups than ENTPs and ENFPs. (Note however that my Ne is not very much stronger than my Ti; i.e. I'm only a moderate extravert and not an extreme extravert.)

    Another thing is: In the MBTI model, every person is both introverted and extraverted. Namely introverted in one of their two primary functions and extraverted in the other. So I think that classifying a person as entirely an extravert or entirely an introvert is way too simplistic. For example, if your type is INTJ, then you are way more extraverted than me in your "T" function.

    The better and more accurate way to see it, I think, is to regard "extraverted" and "introverted" as an attribute of each individual function (N and T), instead of as an attribute of a person as a whole.


    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    So it is interesting in the results I just posted that her feeling score is above her thinking score.
    An alternative hypothesis: She is a woman!! And a female ENTP may be generally by nature more "in tune" with "feelings and emotions" than a male ENTP. Or may typically discover her "Fe" (third function) sooner than a male ENTP.


    Quote Originally Posted by sereneone View Post
    That certainly gives validity to my claim that her Fi is very real and cannot just be discarded in order to squeeze her into the MBTI model. But then we have the unpleasant reality that this girl is either Ne+Ti+Fi or Ne+Fi+Ti. That is not possible in the MBTI model. I understand that. But she is one of those two, so that is just the reality.
    What is, apart from MBTI tests, the data on which you base your hypothesis that she is Fi and not Fe? I mean can you give concrete examples of her actual behavior that show that her "F" function is introverted and not extraverted?

    ---
    Regards,
    -- MR
    Last edited by MRaccoon; 07-02-2018 at 08:42 PM.
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  6. #5

    Could very well be ENFP, in fact it looks most likely. The “criticism” you gave...was it blunt and rude? It doesn’t sound like it. If you said something more like, “You should try to not have so many emotions on your face.” To your face, because of Fi I would try to take it well, but inside I would not have liked it. I would not trust you much after. ENFPs will not share negative feelings unless feeling very safe and understood. In other words, you wouldn’t know. I might wan5 to get away from you, though. So you might notice that I’m not sharing much with you.
    2nd thing...on the MBTI I scored close to the line on N and S, but for real life I’m about as N as you can get and my Si is pathetic.
    3rd thing...is she interested in understanding people? Notice her face looking around taking people in, her speech will also be about understanding others. ENFPs put themselves in other people’s shoes, it’s what we do when interacting with others. We ask lots of questions and we brainstorm solutions.
    Crowds can be tough.. so that still works for ENFPs.
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  7. #6

    Quote Originally Posted by Alesha View Post
    The “criticism” you gave...was it blunt and rude? It doesn’t sound like it. If you said something more like, “You should try to not have so many emotions on your face.” To your face, because of Fi I would try to take it well, but inside I would not have liked it.
    Hi Alesha, welcome to the thread.

    The "blunt" is a very good point. That is indeed needed to make the test do what it is intended to, namely test whether someone takes criticism personally or not.

    In order to avoid mis-testing an ENTP in this, I would rather phrase it impersonally instead, e.g. like "it is completely ridiculous when people show their emotions on their face". Knowing very well that I show emotions on my face all the time, I would not take that personally in any way, and would probably laugh out loud and actually agree with the statement. Question to Alesha: Would this way of phrasing it still be likely to be taken personally (or as personally confrontative) by an ENFP?

    But when someone says "You should try to not have so many emotions on your face", it sounds to me like the other person is giving me a command, is telling me what is right and wrong. And to that kind of thing I tend to react badly. Don't touch my independence. I can take criticism, but don't react well to it when people use the imperative towards me.

    ----
    Added in edit, 03 Jul, 11:14 PM (forum time): The important thing is simply to get rid of the imperative. I mean you can be personally critical to an ENTP, but not with the "Te" type command tone. A formulation that I think will still work for an ENTP is something like: "The kind of thing that you are always doing, showing emotions on your face all the time, is completely ridiculous." I think an ENTP will not feel personally hurt or personally attacked by this.
    Last edited by MRaccoon; 07-03-2018 at 02:45 AM.
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  8. #7

    Quote Originally Posted by MRaccoon View Post
    Hi Alesha, welcome to the thread.

    The "blunt" is a very good point. That is indeed needed to make the test do what it is intended to, namely test whether someone takes criticism personally or not.

    In order to avoid mis-testing an ENTP in this, I would rather phrase it impersonally instead, e.g. like "it is completely ridiculous when people show their emotions on their face". Knowing very well that I show emotions on my face all the time, I would not take that personally in any way, and would probably laugh out loud and actually agree with the statement. Question to Alesha: Would this way of phrasing it still be likely to be taken personally (or as personally confrontative) by an ENFP?

    But when someone says "You should try to not have so many emotions on your face", it sounds to me like the other person is giving me a command, is telling me what is right and wrong. And to that kind of thing I tend to react badly. Don't touch my independence. I can take criticism, but don't react well to it when people use the imperative towards me.
    Right, it would bother both...hampering and controlling, but what would the reaction be? A bothered ENFP would be most likely silent or try to show a good face, and would not agree.
    Last edited by Llyralen; 07-02-2018 at 10:29 PM.
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  9. #8

    Okay, so what is a good test? Fi is personal... it would depend on the ENFP. One thing is certain, the hallmark of an ENFP is authenticity, so unless they are being sarcastic (also something that only comes out if Fi is crossed) then we will never go against our authentic feelings/thoughts. Silence you will get, often, if something crosses our Fi. Likely people get several chances from us if they seem nice in other ways, but too much criticism/command and we will withdraw. All they talk about with us not taking criticism well is true, but we won’t show that to people, it’s on the inside. Plus we try to take it well and later on in life we’ve usually learned that it’s not pleasant, but it is useful. I. Trying to think of a ENFP test, and it would likely have to do with authenticity.
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  10. #9

    Excellent points, Alesha. Interesting that this thread is boiling down to developing a test to distinguish ENTPs and ENFPs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alesha View Post
    Right, it would bother both...hampering and controlling, but what would the reaction be? A bothered ENFP would be most likely silent or try to show a good face, and would not agree.
    Talking from the male ENTP perspective (allowing here for the possibility that female ENTPs may be more "accomodating" which never having met one I do not know), the problem points for an ENTP would be:

    1. When someone gives us commands, i.e. tells us what we should be doing.
    2. When in a discussion someone does not "get" something from sheer unwillingness to even consider a hypothesis we are proposing when we are proposing the hypothesis merely in an attempt to advance the discussion.

    I mention the second one because I think an ENTP will do his utmost to not be offended when something does the same thing to him (i.e. propose some weird thing in a discussion). I think an ENTP will in general always try to understand what the other is trying to say, even if to the ENTP what the other is saying comes off a little awkwardly.

    How a male ENTP would react in both cases is (judging by myself) by "feeling frustrated". You will very probably read the frustration on my face. How it goes beyond that depends. If it is a very new and very important contact, then I may try to suppress the frustration and try to view things as an unintended misunderstanding on the part of the other person, and try to move on to different and more fruitful discussion topics. Otherwise (for example if the same thing happens too often with the same person), I will be likely to at least give an audible groan, even if I do not respond verbally in another way. If the "infringement" goes beyond groan territory, then I will make verbal remarks, probably in a way in which my frustration is clearly shown (which may very well come off as anger). Note: The frustration is still not really personal; it is more that I'm angry at the senseless and unfruitful way of communication. I do not really feel personally hurt, but I may very well feel personally put under pressure, like being put in a restricting cage for no good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alesha View Post
    Okay, so what is a good test? Fi is personal... it would depend on the ENFP. One thing is certain, the hallmark of an ENFP is authenticity, so unless they are being sarcastic (also something that only comes out if Fi is crossed) then we will never go against our authentic feelings/thoughts. Silence you will get, often, if something crosses our Fi. Likely people get several chances from us if they seem nice in other ways, but too much criticism/command and we will withdraw. All they talk about with us not taking criticism well is true, but we won’t show that to people, it’s on the inside. Plus we try to take it well and later on in life we’ve usually learned that it’s not pleasant, but it is useful. I. Trying to think of a ENFP test, and it would likely have to do with authenticity.
    Authenticity, interesting. That may be a good point.

    It seems that I do not know how "authenticity" is defined. This may be an indication of how good your point is. I mean to say that you may have discovered something there, namely a blind spot in ENTPs. Please can you define what "authenticity" means (for you)?

    If that is what authenticity means: I think that I myself do not really have a significant sense of "self". It does not matter to me "who" I am, and it does not matter to me whether I am "unique" or not. I am simply a product of random genetics and mostly random experience; and the result of that is automatically what it is. You don't change who you are by dwelling and introspecting on who you are, so I see no point in dwelling/introspecting on it.

    ---
    To all: If you @sereneone are INTJ (the image in your signature gives mixed signals, not sure if that is intentional), then since INTJ is NiTeFiSe, it occurs to me that as an INTJ you will have a pretty good idea of what Fi is, but may have a less good idea of what Ti is.

    I say this because introverted functions seem to be harder to understand than extraverted functions, and because as an NeTi type, the only introverted function that I am confident I know something about is Ti. All other introverted functions (Ni, Si, Fi) are truly complete mysteries to me (not exaggerating here). Note that this includes Ni, whereas Ne is my primary function. So I as an NeTi type can not even understand Ni, the introverted version of my own primary function!! And I am pretty sure I am not the only ENTP who has a very hard time understanding Ni. Arguing by symmetry, this may point to the possibility that an INTJ may not have a clear idea about what Ti is.

    (Ti is in my view the process of accepting real-world data and analyzing it, to see which general models fit the data. And also the process of constantly adapting these general models to new data. What Ti seeks is understanding, just for the purpose of understanding. Understanding in the sense of discovering the mechanisms behind how everything works. I am pretty sure that Te is completely different.)

    So I am hypothesizing that it may be the case that you Sereneone may be correctly perceiving the Fi function in your friend, but may conceivably be misperceiving the Ti function. I mean it may be that your perception of the Fi is more accurate than your perception of the Ti. If the datum "Fi" is indeed more reliable than the datum "Ti", then this would point to the possibility that your friend could be simply NeFiTe, which is ENFP. Please give us examples of your friend's behaviour that indicate to you that she is Fi and Ti (and not Fe and Te).

    Also, I would guess that the Te and Fi that INTJs and ENFPs share might be responsible for a "chemistry" when meeting in person, and from your posts I get the vibe that you do feel that chemistry for her (speculating here). I mean the chemistry may be another piece of evidence in favor of the ENFP hypothesis.
    Last edited by MRaccoon; 07-03-2018 at 02:43 AM.
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  11. #10

    Quote Originally Posted by Alesha View Post
    Could very well be ENFP, in fact it looks most likely. The “criticism” you gave...was it blunt and rude? It doesn’t sound like it. If you said something more like, “You should try to not have so many emotions on your face.” To your face, because of Fi I would try to take it well, but inside I would not have liked it. I would not trust you much after. ENFPs will not share negative feelings unless feeling very safe and understood. In other words, you wouldn’t know. I might wan5 to get away from you, though. So you might notice that I’m not sharing much with you.
    2nd thing...on the MBTI I scored close to the line on N and S, but for real life I’m about as N as you can get and my Si is pathetic.
    3rd thing...is she interested in understanding people? Notice her face looking around taking people in, her speech will also be about understanding others. ENFPs put themselves in other people’s shoes, it’s what we do when interacting with others. We ask lots of questions and we brainstorm solutions.
    Crowds can be tough.. so that still works for ENFPs.
    Okay, some very interesting points you are making.

    The issue of criticism is very fair because - let's just say it - I am an INTJ, and quite often that means I would be B-L-U-N-T. :) It happens to me all the time. I shock people with cutting directly to the truth. I never intend such remarks to be personal, nor do I intend to criticize, but I immediately see the truth of facts and cannot help myself trying to find a way to use the truth to help people. Obviously with some personality types that will be offensive.

    That said, I do not think we are dealing with exactly that situation here. First, I never criticized her but simply created some made up fictional guesses about her personality based on some random photos. She actually encouraged me to write this and showed some abnormal level of interest in having me write it up. She knows I like her and for each photo I described, I also stated what aspects of the proposed personality were interesting to me. I confronted her at some point asking if this was too intense and she replied "I do not feel any pressure from you. I'm not afraid of your desire to know me better."

    I do not believe a pissed-off ENFP would have replied with such a remark. She would - at best - be silent or mutter some words to diffuse her actual feelings. An ENFP would *never* give me encouragement like this when her actual feeling was to feel offended because that would be an unauthentic reply.

    The actual words she used seem much more like an ENTP's self-confidence. At a shallow first pass, you might mistake her comment for someone hinting that she likes what I am doing. But - sadly :) - I think this was not it at all. I do not think she likes me that much. Really, what this remark reflects is a certain amount of arrogance and her desire to be desired and the center of someone else's interest and attention. I would normally be extremely put off by that kind of conceit. In this case, I am more disarmed because she is utterly oblivious to her own behavior. She is actually so sweet, so sincere and genuine, and appears to be so engaged in conversations with me that I only realize how flawed this interaction actually is as the result of a very critical and objective thinking process, like what we are doing here. What makes this conversation so flawed is that all of the conversation is about her, and her interest level in my details is almost zero. I get the feeling that this is not a well thought out game for her. She actually does not seem to understand that a one-sided conversation in which all of the thoughts and interest are about her is a pretty boring conversation and one that is likely to not continue. I don't think she can bring herself to just say she isn't interested because then - god forbid - all of the conversations about her would have to stop.

    I do not see her trying to deeply understand others. She cares about other people, but I do not see this as her dominant or auxiliary function. It feels to me like she deeply wants to be wanted by others, and she probably has problems developing intimacy with more than a handful of people because she is just very bright. I think guys approach her constantly and completely miss that her intellect is substantial. On some day when no one had talked to her - and she clearly wanted the conversation - she made some remark about "hating people". I read through that (with my Fi :) ) as really meaning "I am completely frustrated that people do not know how to talk to me because I want to be close to them." So the world does revolve around her a bit. She is not out there trying to figure out the world. She is wondering why the world is not figuring her out.

    What I might agree to is that my showing such a deep level of interest as trying to expose different personalities from photos has maybe shut her down or made her put up her guard. Even though she was the one who encouraged me to write these descriptions when I casually mentioned to her that she looked different in each photo, now that she actually sees my expose and feels exposed by the accuracy of some of that, she may just put me at arms length and try to keep me on a hook but never let me confirm anything I said or allow me to develop things further. To make an analogy, it's like she has motioned to me and said "please come up close to me to this line" and then once I get there she behaves in a way to say "good, now do not get any closer than that." It's not being done in a cruel or manipulative way. But she is serving her own deep-felt needs for attention and interest while keeping me on a hook and away from anything that leaves her exposed.

    To show how flawed this interaction is, I confronted her about the fact that I wrote all of these questions and interest about her - really at her request - and then she barely responded. I told her she clearly wasn't that interested in me. Was her response to deny that? No. Was her response to be honest and confirm that? No. She said "Why do you think that?" In other words, she makes zero commitment to what she really feels, and asks me to *prove* to her why she does not like me that much. Wow, that's seriously sick. :) I think she realized she was on the losing end of that conversation and then tried to save it with "You can write me more detail about yourself." And I am thinking to myself "You got me to commit a lot of ideas and questions about you in writing and did not really respond to any of it in meaningful detail, and now you want me to double up on my error and write you more long e-mails about myself?" My guess is I would get five words back for every 50 I write.

    I guess it is possible that she has some inner shyness and inhibition about sharing about herself, but at the minimum, it would be a bad strategy for me to hold my interest high when she holds her interest so low. It is obvious to me this is not going to end well for me and I will need to step back soon. But I am not stepping back before I finish this MBTI typing. :)
    Last edited by sereneone; 07-03-2018 at 10:48 PM.


     
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