[ENTP] ENTPs against arguing?? - Page 2

ENTPs against arguing??

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This is a discussion on ENTPs against arguing?? within the ENTP Forum- The Visionaries forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; I fit into the stereotype, i enjoy creating chaos, instigating fights, provoking, fucking with people's heads, causing negative reactions etc. ...

  1. #11

    I fit into the stereotype, i enjoy creating chaos, instigating fights, provoking, fucking with people's heads, causing negative reactions etc.

    Arguments are fun, even if they are pointless, i am never emotionally involved in any of them so the other person usually loses their shit sooner or later.

  2. #12

    ENTPs against arguing. ISTJs against duty. ESTJs against order. Go on!

  3. #13
    INTP

    I don't like arguing because it takes time away from procrastinating on the Very Important Things that need to get done.

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  5. #14

    sounds like male vs female socialization imo. girls are discouraged from creating conflict and contradiction whereas it is encouraged in boys.
    mayberaye thanked this post.

  6. #15
    Unknown

    Honestly, it gets old after a while, especially nowadays since fake news and social media in general has turned people into idiots. All people do is emotionally parrot soundbites, tweets, and memes and that's their "opinion." There's no substance to it. Most of the "facts" are wrong. As said earlier, it's about exchanging information and nowadays you don't even know if you're talking about the same facts. It just turns into a match on who can shout the loudest and bully their way into "winning" a debate.

    I don't really pay attention to the news anymore because this is the norm. Most of the time I only check the news after someone says something (easy way to filter the noise since it's important enough someone else noticed it for me). The latest was the Democratic debate. I watched a 10 minute clip and besides Joe Biden and Andrew Yang, the rest looked like a bunch of starved wolves ripping into each other. There's nothing productive out of this and I don't want to waste my limited time and energy on this when I have so many other interests and things that can better occupy it.
    nujabes and PalomaWraith thanked this post.

  7. #16

    If I liked to argue so much that it exceeds its finality, or as the english like to say, "for its own sake", I would do 3 things that I don't.

    - Indulging in sophistry,
    - Arguing about things that don't even interest me,
    - Never leaving without having the last word.

    So here's how it works instead. I see a stupid answer/question, I correct it. And it only turns ugly when somebody else wants to argue for its own sake (having the last word, using sophisms, talking without expertise).

    Sure, I like to play, but the game is to find a better question or a better answer. The game can change and become to destroy an arrogant moron, I mean, a disrespectful person, however that's precisely how the whole ENTPlikearguingforitsownsakethemost statement falls appart.

    Why? Because then it isn't the extravert game anymore (as measured by "P" in the MBTI), but the introvert game (J). Jungian introversion is the defensive/aggressive attitude of somebody. The P/J axis in the MBTI merely measures someone's aggressive and territorial tendencies. How much one can give up on understanding or knowing a situation in order to dominate it. The end which justifies the means.

    Hence ENTPs are not a good example of what it's like to argue for its own sake, for when it happens, ENTPs give up on their extraversion. For the best examples of this phenomenon I suggest you venture further into the "J" territory. That's where the biggest trolls are.

    That's where the equation becomes complicated. Because arguing is not exactly the best aggressive method to get rid of someone. So the likeliness to start bullshiting people is not the likeliness to quit bullshiting. People start through aggressiveness and territorialism, but they might stop quickly for opposite reasons : out of exhaustion (too much), or out of frustration (not enough). To sum this up, someone being used to bullshit one's way with words is either not able and used to resort on more violent methods (too weak, too scared), or not introverted enough to go this far before exhaustion.

    Anyways, ENTPs cannot be the most prone to start a bullshit argument. Because all the reasons to do so (a lack of care for understanding, logic and truth) also drift away from ENTP personality. If you want o deal with some "wysoserious" troll, professional sophist or drama queen, there are plenty of other subs to look for.

  8. #17
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by polluxs View Post
    [B]

    Not agreeing = debating.
    Setting definitions = debating.
    Fact-checking = debating.
    Asking questions about gaps = debating.

    So many things are so quick to be perceived as debating.
    Jeez, ain't this the truth. I have been accused by the many SJs in my life that I'm debating something (especially not agreeing with them) when I am doing one of the above. So many people want to present their idea and have the other person just say "You are exactly right" and move on. Even if you agree 90% with their idea but have something to add it's considered by them to be not agreeing with them. I love when someone has a good counter idea to mine. It usually develops my idea even more.
    polluxs and mayberaye thanked this post.

  9. #18

    Quote Originally Posted by PowerShell View Post
    Honestly, it gets old after a while, especially nowadays since fake news and social media in general has turned people into idiots. All people do is emotionally parrot soundbites, tweets, and memes and that's their "opinion." There's no substance to it. Most of the "facts" are wrong. As said earlier, it's about exchanging information and nowadays you don't even know if you're talking about the same facts. It just turns into a match on who can shout the loudest and bully their way into "winning" a debate.
    This, with bells on. 90% of the time I will RUN from an argument. I don't know if it's because I'm too old, or because social media has created a flood of the above, but I only go for a proper ARGUMENT, with facts on either side. Something interesting, with an armed opponent, in a 'safe' environment where they won't just start crying or bullying.
    PowerShell thanked this post.

  10. #19

    Quote Originally Posted by Geonerd View Post
    Jeez, ain't this the truth. I have been accused by the many SJs in my life that I'm debating something (especially not agreeing with them) when I am doing one of the above. So many people want to present their idea and have the other person just say "You are exactly right" and move on. Even if you agree 90% with their idea but have something to add it's considered by them to be not agreeing with them. I love when someone has a good counter idea to mine. It usually develops my idea even more.
    Also THIS. anything less than 100% validation is hate apparently -_-
    Geonerd thanked this post.

  11. #20
    Unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by PalomaWraith View Post
    This, with bells on. 90% of the time I will RUN from an argument. I don't know if it's because I'm too old, or because social media has created a flood of the above, but I only go for a proper ARGUMENT, with facts on either side. Something interesting, with an armed opponent, in a 'safe' environment where they won't just start crying or bullying.
    I occasionally will get into a debate, but too often people will just share click bait articles that supposedly "prove" their point and put the oneous on you to read that article and then come to the same conclusion. This is what debating has got.

    With the rash of mass shootings, I shared this yesterday (before the whole Dayton, OH shooting):

    Is it me or is it sad we have to specify which state to differentiate shootings at Walmarts? It was Mississippi earlier this week and now there's a massacre in El Paso. El Paso is one of those cities I love to visit and I know I've been in the general area where this shooting happened. Then again, why does it matter? It's clear there's a trend of a problem going on. What we need to do is work together to find a solution.
    It seems we're quick to offer "thoughts and prayers" yet fail to read what is proclaimed in James 2:17: "Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself." These thoughts and prayers amount to inaction and ultimately a lack of works.
    When I go to Canada, I don't worry about this kind of stuff. It seems they have a handle on things. This is even when I walk the streets of Thunder Bay, who often holds the title of "Murder Capital of Canada."
    It's clear there's a solution out there. It's not too soon to talk about this because it's happening all the time. If we continue to fail to act, this will continue as the trend has already shown us.
    I want this to be a dialog between people in our own words instead of sharing articles that you think proves your point. Letís make this a genuine conversation that leads to a productive dialog that can be discussed with other people. Letís just imagine weíre sitting at a table across from each other talking.
    Here are my points:
    1.) People are quick to point out the ďshall not be infringedĒ ending of the Second Amendment, but fail to read the beginning that defines a ďwell regulated militia.Ē Well regulated has multiple meanings, but the intention was in working order. I do believe owning guns is an essential part of our freedom and the preservation of our freedom. With that being said, for this preservation of freedom to be in working order, there needs to be regulations in place in the context of how we think of regulation. I will outline what I think these regulations are in my below points.
    2.) I donít believe in banning any guns. A gun is an inanimate object. Itís the person who ultimately gets the gun and commits the crime that we need to prevent.
    3.) I believe there needs to be universal background checks on any weapon purchase. I need to show ID to exercise my right to vote. I need to show ID in so many other contexts of my life. Why is it different to validate that I truly have the right to own a weapon? The same check should go on ammo purchasing.
    4.) I believe in conceal and carry with proper training. Being over 21 years old without a criminal record doesnít prepare someone to diffuse an active shooter situation. If someone is willing to go through extensive background checks and training on par with what law enforcement goes through, they should have every right to conceal and carry. This means shoot or no shoot situations and training to the point that they can subconsciously react and diffuse an active shooter situation.
    5.) I believe every gun should be registered to its lawful owner. Transfer of ownership is no different than transferring the title of a car. As of right now the term ďillegal gunĒ is meaningless. It depends on who owns this gun that technically makes it illegal. If Iím a felon, the gun is illegal. If I hand the gun to someone else who isnít a felon, the gun suddenly becomes legal. We need to have a system that traces ownership and holds people accountable to make sure that their legally owned gun doesnít end up in the wrong hands.
    6.) I believe these laws should apply federally. People complain about Chicagoís gun crime and strict gun laws, yet fail to realize itís a short drive to Indiana, who has some very lax gun laws. This patchwork of laws allow major holes in the system.
    7.) To get control of our border situation, we also need to get a handle on our gun situation. We often talk about the drugs coming north from Mexico, but donít talk about the guns from the US going south. With out current laws, it makes it easy to arm the cartels and fuel the border violence we are trying to keep down.
    I honestly think we donít have to do a ton to bring down these massacres. We do have to do something. Our current approach isnít working and itís a matter of time before something bad happens to one of us. I donít want this to happen. Thereís many other topics like mental health out there and I could write a novel. Iím trying to keep this a bit within scope of what we can specifically do about guns.
    If you have something to add, I am encouraging an honest dialog. Letís keep this respectful and maybe we can learn from each other and find a solution we can agree on. I just know doing nothing is akin to sending our thoughts and prayers with no works.
    I have a down the middle stance on guns as you can see. I've rationally thought about it and I often get beat up by both sides. This was a much deeper perspective than sharing a mean or click bait article. I haven't really got any takers in over 12 hours. A few comments but mainly people who align with me politically or are more liberal than me so they tend to take the time to read things. As far as the conservative people I thought who would bite, I guess this isn't simplified to memes, tweets, and shared articles with no context.

    To me this is a bit of an experiment and my hypothesis is proving correct on the lack of deepness of thought when it comes to actually debating. It's a sad reflection on society, but proves the point of not wasting my energy on most "debates" because the true debates that dig deeper, nobody wants to waste their time. Time is just wasted on flinging poo back and forth at each other and it isn't productive at all.


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