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This is a discussion on Abusive ESFJ Mother within the ESFJ Forum - The Caregivers forums, part of the SJ's Temperament Forum- The Overseers category; Originally Posted by debugger How are you doing caregivers? The reason i`m opening this thread is that i have an ...

  1. #71
    ENTJ - The Executives

    Quote Originally Posted by debugger View Post
    How are you doing caregivers?

    The reason i`m opening this thread is that i have an abusive ESFJ mother (I made her take the test) and she has been trying to destroy my free-will and self-confidence all the time.

    The things she does:

    1 - She tries to control me

    She always tries to guilt trip me like "you are such a psycho for making me feel this bad" and when i tell her that she is being too sensitive she just starts going into rage mode (and i just get up and go to my room and lock the door not talking to her again for days).She always tells me what i should do,What i should wear,I should be more sensitive etc.) and when i tell her that i dont value emotional decisions but i undersand her she just flips off (seriously do ESFJ`s have a sense of self-awareness?) and she is never tired of making drama and trying to get everyone to switch to her side.

    We were discussing about improvements she could make to her room and she just said jokingly "did you find my dildo or something?" (WTF?!) i told her that i`m not comfortable talking about her sex toys and she just started screaming at me "why are you being so mean?why are you so blah blah blah"

    2 - She made my sister go against me

    My sister being the ENFJ she always tries to suck up to her,make her feel like she`s in control etc.I had a long talk with her about how important is her freedom and gave her logical (and quasi-emotional) reasons why she should draw boundaries to the control my mom has over her.I`ve always cared my sister and protected her through my childhood and now my sister doesn`t want me to talk to her anymore because i upset her dear mother.I must admit i felt betrayed as i tried my entire life to keep her away from the emotional abuse my mother provokes on her.


    3 - She gives people she barely knows big amounts of money to make herself look like someone important

    My step-father`s family is full of ex-robbers and simple beggers and my mom just circles these lazy bums around her and sweet-talk to them,then gives them at least 50-100 dollars after the bums tell her how great she is,how nice she is,how beautiful she is etc (she is simply paying people to give her validation)



    1 week ago i just couldn`t keep my emotions inside me anymore (after all these years of being beaten up and told off) and what i did was just go up to her and tell her that she has failed as a mother and a protector (being separated from my dad my mom is the only one that gives us food,clothes etc.) and i `cant stand her incompetence anymore.All she did was lose huge amounts of money while being pricked by others for money and doing her best to feel like she has control over us.

    When i tell her that i love her (which comes out in an awkward voice) she just tells me that i`m lying.

    Now the question:

    How do i keep her away from me and my children (when i`ll have) as i move out?

    Is there any chance i might make her less abusive and more loving?(the only way i can continue talking to her.)


    :(

    <3

    First off, I want to tell you that this is actually quite common, but not enough that many people will get. Sounds like a scapegoating dynamic, and to be honest, while it might simmer down when you leave home and have someone in the future to love and protect you- the scapegoating family may treat you better then, by proxy. I don't want to get into too much here, but I will tell you this, it's very close to home, and when you get out of situations like this... you may end up networking and confiding in people who are not there for you the way you need it... it's part of growing up in that environment where you're not properly supported, so despite reaching out and seeking support, it just flags other people with their own narcissistic agendas to feel better about themselves. Don't give up, just eliminate what does not serve you and keep moving on.

    #1, protect your finances, and at all costs make sure your mom does not have access to these things or your bank account, or know how much money you ever make. you can guarantee that when and if you have money to spare, she will be coming around with random sob stories for bills, etc. and guilt trip you. You have to absolutely refuse a single penny, even when you think it might be in your best interest, don't do it. If you must help your parents or anyone some day, make sure you have been settled, made, have everything you need in place first (your own home, established career, strong relationships, etc) because only then you will be in a position to help, truely.

    #2 it's easy to fall back into abusive esfj moms, because they can make us feel good, at the same time they will create your world and manipulate things around you so that no one else can or will help or support you- people will more liekly to judge you and believe you're already taken care of, so I can't stress #1 enough. You are always going to want your mom to love you, and may never give up on that> it's a painful place to be, and I wish I had better advice on the love part, as I'm still trying to figure that out myself, but one thing going back in time, i woudl definitely make sure about the finances. Pls feel free to pm me too about anything.

  2. #72
    ESFJ - The Caregivers

    Quote Originally Posted by EXE View Post
    Truth is absolute, and therefore, values can be boolean absolutes. While humans are imperfect, unable to achieve perfection - we should still aim to achieve perfection, even if we will never reach it. That is my judgement, which is inevitably subjective and which I hold to be superior over that of my children.



    I teach my children that pain is weakness leaving their body. Moreover, I don't care what judgement the child makes if they are hit, nor do I care about who started it or what the reason is. All I want is my child to be victorious and hit back where it hurts, hard. And boy, do they succeed. Domination is an alpha trait.

    But to answer your question. Yes a child is able to interpret whether they were hit or not. It is sensory information. They are not able to discern between being hit or being abused, however.


    I place more value in the muscular strength of my children to survive life-threatening situations in society. Because societies..they don't tend to last long.



    I am professionally involved in assessing and mitigating risks. Not only my children, but entire companies rely on my ability to manage crisis-situations if necessary. While my way of dealing with risk is subjective, it is the most educated and professional prespective on methodical management of risk.

    Still, I do not wish my children to be dependent on my evaluation of risk till they grow up to be manchildren. When my kid was a toddler, she approached burning ember in my indoor fireplace. She tried to grab a piece of wood which was emanating a pretty orange glow.

    I could have stopped her, but instead I let her touch the piece of wood. She shrieked and cried after doing so, realizing that the pretty piece of wood is hot. Since that day, I never had to shadowstep my child while she roamed the house fearing she might fall into the fireplace.


    Children are incapable of making that judgement. All they think about is eat, drink, shit and play.

    Sadly, we live in a time were effiminate degenerates are inclined to cut off the balls of their son because he tried wearing his mom's skirt for fun. Good thing my values are superior compared to the progressive wave of degeneracy that is plagueing the lands.
    EXE are you sure you are an ESFJ. You speak in a massive amount of T. There is no F in anything you have said except you've thrown in the word "subjective" a couple of times for good measure.

    You sound more like an objective INTJ. Stand back and let them learn from their mistakes approach and "my values are superior"....very INTJ.

  3. #73

    Quote Originally Posted by Oceanwave View Post
    EXE are you sure you are an ESFJ. You speak in a massive amount of T. There is no F in anything you have said except you've thrown in the word "subjective" a couple of times for good measure.

    You sound more like an objective INTJ. Stand back and let them learn from their mistakes approach and "my values are superior"....very INTJ.
    @Oceanwave , @EXE was banned from the forum.

    However, don't let the fact that @EXE tested as an ESFJ bother you. It doesn't mean you're abusive too, like my mother. For one thing, my mother had a personality disorder, and for all we know, @EXE does too. For another, I'm quoting from "ESFJ Personal Growth" here: https://personalitycafe.com/esfj-arti...al-growth.html

    "Without a sound appreciation of the concrete world, an ESFJ may show some or all of the following weaknesses in varying degrees:
    May be unable to correctly judge what really is for the best
    May become spiteful and extremely intractable in the face of clear, logical reasoning
    May be unable to shrug off feelings that others are not "good people"
    May be unable to acknowledge anything that goes against their certainty about the "correct" or "right" way to do things
    May attribute their own problems to arbitrary and unprovable notions about the way people "ought" to behave
    May be at a loss when confronted with situations that require basic technical expertise or clear thinking
    May be oblivious to all but their own viewpoint, valuing their own viewpoint, valuing their own certainties to the exclusion of others
    May be unable to understand verbal logic, and quickly cut off other's explanations
    May be falsely certain of the true needs and feeling of others
    May be extremely vulnerable to superstitions, religious cults, and media manipulation
    May react too quickly and too emotionally in a situation better dealt with in a more pragmatic fashion"

    ESFJs can find themselves waging a self created war against all that opposes their own. This conflict often expresses itself in various unambiguous and simplistic "Us verses Them" generalities, or a penchant for smugly and narrowly defining other people by arbitrary or superstitious belief systems, which often actually symbolise and define their own conflict. At its worst, this conflict with the obstinate and unfeeling contingent realities of the world creates a situation where the ESFJ retreats to a kind of psychological castle where, not only none but those who have the "right" or "nice" approach can enter, but also where the ESFJs feeling based and often tortured logic, attitudes and judgments reign supreme and cannot be questioned; a place where: "give and you shall receive" can ironically twist quickly into: "off with his head!"
    The main driver to the ESFJ personality is Extraverted Feeling, whose function is to judge the relative human value of the ideas, behaviours, situations and objects they perceive. The resulting world view is tidy, and ordered according to its worth to the ESFJ's own particular character: "Everything has its place and everything in its place". If this picture of the world is threatened by external influences, the ESFJ generally tries to shut such new information out of their lives. This is totally natural, and works well to protect the individual psyche from getting hurt. However, the ESFJ who exercises this type of self-protection regularly will find they can only connect and relate with those who do not actively disturb their increasingly narrow and rigid world view. They will always find justification for their own inappropriate behaviours, and will always find fault with the outside world for problems that they have in their lives. It will be difficult for them to maintain the flexibility needed for a healthy relationship with the messy world outside because the differing ways others value things is a constant affront to their personal judgements.
    Sounds like this is what went on with @EXE and also with my mother. First of all she got absorbed with her religion to the point where she'd rather cut off her own child and she had the "off with her head" worldview with me. Toxic relationship to the extreme as a result.

    As I said before, this has to factor in a personality disorder as well.
    Oceanwave thanked this post.

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  5. #74
    ESFJ - The Caregivers

    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Elliot View Post
    @Oceanwave , @EXE was banned from the forum.

    However, don't let the fact that @EXE tested as an ESFJ bother you. It doesn't mean you're abusive too, like my mother. For one thing, my mother had a personality disorder, and for all we know, @EXE does too. For another, I'm quoting from "ESFJ Personal Growth" here: https://personalitycafe.com/esfj-arti...al-growth.html



    Sounds like this is what went on with @EXE and also with my mother. First of all she got absorbed with her religion to the point where she'd rather cut off her own child and she had the "off with her head" worldview with me. Toxic relationship to the extreme as a result.

    As I said before, this has to factor in a personality disorder as well.
    Thanks for posting this.

    I've read this before, several times, on my own journey of self improvement.

    I've got an ESFJ conspiracy theory friend which I was so surprised about that believes far fetched stories in the media and another that doesn't get verbal reasoning. It's a conversation stopper because he really doesn't know how to reply sometimes as he doesn't understand and then he says he's thick when he's not. He also struggles with other people's view points and shuts you down when you try to explain but he's a really lovely guy, very funny and sensitive.

    I've been working on apologising and learn't really young (from one uncomfortable incident) not to assume people need help when they don't.

    I guess that's why I'm still here despite the ESFJ negativity because I want to know about other peoples perspectives.

    The one listed that applied to me, apart from apologising, was not reacting emotionally and finding a pragmatic way so I checked in with an ISTP friend who gave the best and simplest answer.. it's so simple I can't understand how I didn't think of it except that I was too close to the situation, the answer was walk away. Brilliant!!

    There is one thing I've never understood though, violence and dictatorship....I've rambled on, that's for another thread.

    Things can be tough for some people Jane Elliott. Hope you are in a good place now.

    Oh and one other, if someone is banned, how can they still post! It's not logical.

  6. #75

    Quote Originally Posted by Oceanwave View Post
    Thanks for posting this.

    I've read this before, several times, on my own journey of self improvement.

    I've got an ESFJ conspiracy theory friend which I was so surprised about that believes far fetched stories in the media and another that doesn't get verbal reasoning. It's a conversation stopper because he really doesn't know how to reply sometimes as he doesn't understand and then he says he's thick when he's not. He also struggles with other people's view points and shuts you down when you try to explain but he's a really lovely guy, very funny and sensitive.

    I've been working on apologising and learn't really young (from one uncomfortable incident) not to assume people need help when they don't.

    I guess that's why I'm still here despite the ESFJ negativity because I want to know about other peoples perspectives.

    The one listed that applied to me, apart from apologising, was not reacting emotionally and finding a pragmatic way so I checked in with an ISTP friend who gave the best and simplest answer.. it's so simple I can't understand how I didn't think of it except that I was too close to the situation, the answer was walk away. Brilliant!!

    There is one thing I've never understood though, violence and dictatorship....I've rambled on, that's for another thread.

    Things can be tough for some people Jane Elliott. Hope you are in a good place now.

    Oh and one other, if someone is banned, how can they still post! It's not logical.
    @Oceanwave , I believe @EXE got banned after the last post. But it was very enlightening, to follow the train of thought, although agonizing for me, to think about her boys, and the abuse they must be going through.

    You seem like a caring person. It's not your fault there are ESFJs who aren't. Remember, your personality type constitutes a large portion of the population. I can't remember the exact percentage, but I believe it's 10% or even a little more. My own, INTP, is something like 3%, and of that, just 1% women. There are bound to be good and bad people in any mix.
    Oceanwave thanked this post.

  7. #76

    Quote Originally Posted by EXE View Post
    That's the thing sweetheart. Kids aren't capable of judgement when it comes to assessing their environment. I make my child eat the dirt off my shoe to speak, and she will do it because she understands the age-old tradition of respecting your parents. Now the newer generation doesn't and I feel blessed for having brought up a child that is neither spoiled nor foul in attitude.

    Trust me, I don't give a rats-ass about the feelings of my kids nor do I care about their intelligence. As long as they do what is right and obey commands. In other words, kids are reliant on the judgement of their superiors, and should inquire based on their feelings and perception, rather than act upon it and decide to make decisions like not respecting their parents.
    I also sincerely hope you are trolling... Why on earth would you respect someone who abused you? And you think that just because they're a kid they can't tell they're being abused? I'm sorry, but If you truly think that, you must be an absolutely horrible person... And you don't care about their feelings?! That's awful! I hope your kids are ok, because from this post you do NOT seem fit to have them!
    Last edited by PastelBunny; 03-22-2016 at 04:46 PM.

  8. #77
    INFP - The Idealists

    Lol, EXE is not an esfj, nor an intj; "she" is probably just a random troll entp XD

  9. #78
    ISTP

    Quote Originally Posted by debugger View Post
    How are you doing caregivers?

    The reason i`m opening this thread is that i have an abusive ESFJ mother (I made her take the test) and she has been trying to destroy my free-will and self-confidence all the time.

    The things she does:

    1 - She tries to control me

    She always tries to guilt trip me like "you are such a psycho for making me feel this bad" and when i tell her that she is being too sensitive she just starts going into rage mode (and i just get up and go to my room and lock the door not talking to her again for days).She always tells me what i should do,What i should wear,I should be more sensitive etc.) and when i tell her that i dont value emotional decisions but i undersand her she just flips off (seriously do ESFJ`s have a sense of self-awareness?) and she is never tired of making drama and trying to get everyone to switch to her side.

    We were discussing about improvements she could make to her room and she just said jokingly "did you find my dildo or something?" (WTF?!) i told her that i`m not comfortable talking about her sex toys and she just started screaming at me "why are you being so mean?why are you so blah blah blah"

    2 - She made my sister go against me

    My sister being the ENFJ she always tries to suck up to her,make her feel like she`s in control etc.I had a long talk with her about how important is her freedom and gave her logical (and quasi-emotional) reasons why she should draw boundaries to the control my mom has over her.I`ve always cared my sister and protected her through my childhood and now my sister doesn`t want me to talk to her anymore because i upset her dear mother.I must admit i felt betrayed as i tried my entire life to keep her away from the emotional abuse my mother provokes on her.


    3 - She gives people she barely knows big amounts of money to make herself look like someone important

    My step-father`s family is full of ex-robbers and simple beggers and my mom just circles these lazy bums around her and sweet-talk to them,then gives them at least 50-100 dollars after the bums tell her how great she is,how nice she is,how beautiful she is etc (she is simply paying people to give her validation)



    1 week ago i just couldn`t keep my emotions inside me anymore (after all these years of being beaten up and told off) and what i did was just go up to her and tell her that she has failed as a mother and a protector (being separated from my dad my mom is the only one that gives us food,clothes etc.) and i `cant stand her incompetence anymore.All she did was lose huge amounts of money while being pricked by others for money and doing her best to feel like she has control over us.

    When i tell her that i love her (which comes out in an awkward voice) she just tells me that i`m lying.

    Now the question:

    How do i keep her away from me and my children (when i`ll have) as i move out?

    Is there any chance i might make her less abusive and more loving?(the only way i can continue talking to her.)
    I cant really imagen a esfj is abusif , for wat i know about esfj , they ussaly are , honnest , nice , sweet , understanding , carring and proitective .

  10. #79

    Quote Originally Posted by elissabowden View Post
    Emotional arguments don't really work either. I've told my mom (ESFJ) that I "feel" this way and she ignores it if she doesn't like it. Then she twists words into how she interprets them. It drives me insane. My advice is pick your battles and walk away. You can't change other people. It is what it is.
    Because deep down, ESFJ's only care about how they feel. If it is how you feel, then you have to rephrase it, and make it about them. Who in the world tolerates ESFJ's?

  11. #80
    ESFJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippo View Post

    Because deep down, ESFJ's only care about how they feel. If it is how you feel, then you have to rephrase it, and make it about them. Who in the world tolerates ESFJ's?
    No, Hon. The majority of us DO care about others. We care about others and what people think of us (not "we care for others BECAUSE we care what people think of us")

    Get your facts straight. There is always a bad apple in every group. Please don't assume we're all cookie cutter the same.
    orion83uk thanked this post.


     
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