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Excessive Validation & Emotional Bulldozing

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This is a discussion on Excessive Validation & Emotional Bulldozing within the ESFJ Forum - The Caregivers forums, part of the SJ's Temperament Forum- The Overseers category; Suntide - I suggest digging into Enneagram and any high quality personal development material you can get your hands on. ...

  1. #21

    Suntide - I suggest digging into Enneagram and any high quality personal development material you can get your hands on.

    I have a few ESFJs in my life and if one thing is certain about them, is y'all are prone to getting deeply convinced of things about yourselves or others that simply aren't true. I know conclusions are a big deal to you all, but you need to allow yourself to be a bit open about those "root causes". There are likely a few conclusions you've settled about yourselves and others surrounding those that you need to change your mind about.

    Affirmation is part of your MO, no shame or fear should be tied up in that. Finding a dimension of satisfaction within yourself is pretty critical for any type, and being on the hook for others to fill your bottomless pit will never work, but its healthy to give and receive affirmation.

    I do know sometimes esfjs have a hard time feeling comfortable expressing yourselves. learning how to communicate your needs is critical and it doesnt rob people of their sincerity if they respond to what you say you need. some types are keen to pick up on stuff but we dont have a crystal ball lol


    i really adore the esfjs in my life not sure any of this applies to you but I typed this as if I was talking to them lol
    Suntide thanked this post.

  2. #22

    Live with an ESFJ lady. Tadaaaaa.

    The main issue (wouldn't call it problem cuz you guys are oversensitive, haha) is that you view life as in constant fear out of concerns of having no control, at this very moment. You couldn't accept if people especially those who care about you does not share the same view, does not validate it,thus you bulldoze them. Which is ironic because you wouldn't really bulldoze anyone who you don't know, nor have the slightest care about you.

    I wouldn't pretend I know how to cater to this issue except that i feel it is a matter of management of expectation. It can be learned though

  3. #23

    Oh hey, some new feedback on this topic for the first time in a while! I've read all of the responses a few times over and I'm going to take a few days to mentally process them before I respond/give a new update. Thanks guys!
    providence thanked this post.

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  5. #24

    BTW this particular blurb from the Enneagram 2 was pretty spot on for another ESFJ friend of mine:

    Twos’ inner development may be limited by their “shadow side”—pride, self-deception, the tendency to become over-involved in the lives of others, and the tendency to manipulate others to get their own emotional needs met. Transformational work entails going into dark places in ourselves, and this very much goes against the grain of the Two’s personality structure, which prefers to see itself in only the most positive, glowing terms.

    Perhaps the biggest obstacle facing Twos, Threes, and Fours in their inner work is having to face their underlying Center fear of worthlessness. Beneath the surface, all three types fear that they are without value in themselves, and so they must be or do something extraordinary in order to win love and acceptance from others. In the average to unhealthy Levels, Twos present a false image of being completely generous and unselfish and of not wanting any kind of pay-off for themselves, when in fact, they can have enormous expectations and unacknowledged emotional needs.

    Average to unhealthy Twos seek validation of their worth by obeying their superego’s demands to sacrifice themselves for others. They believe they must always put others first and be loving and unselfish if they want to get love. The problem is that “putting others first” makes Twos secretly angry and resentful, feelings they work hard to repress or deny. Nevertheless, they eventually erupt in various ways, disrupting Twos’ relationships and revealing the inauthenticity of many of the average to unhealthy Two’s claims about themselves and the depth of their “love.”
    Suntide thanked this post.

  6. #25

    Quote Originally Posted by providence View Post
    Suntide - I suggest digging into Enneagram and any high quality personal development material you can get your hands on.
    For sure, enneagram is definitely my favorite of the "3 main theories" on this website!

    I have a few ESFJs in my life and if one thing is certain about them, is y'all are prone to getting deeply convinced of things about yourselves or others that simply aren't true. I know conclusions are a big deal to you all, but you need to allow yourself to be a bit open about those "root causes". There are likely a few conclusions you've settled about yourselves and others surrounding those that you need to change your mind about.

    Affirmation is part of your MO, no shame or fear should be tied up in that. Finding a dimension of satisfaction within yourself is pretty critical for any type, and being on the hook for others to fill your bottomless pit will never work, but its healthy to give and receive affirmation.

    I do know sometimes esfjs have a hard time feeling comfortable expressing yourselves. learning how to communicate your needs is critical and it doesnt rob people of their sincerity if they respond to what you say you need. some types are keen to pick up on stuff but we dont have a crystal ball lol


    i really adore the esfjs in my life not sure any of this applies to you but I typed this as if I was talking to them lol
    You are right, I do think it's sort of essential to me and to an extent I need to learn to accept that, although I'm still worried about the balance. I have been really good about this so far, at least. The downside is that I've ended up feeling more lonely and disconnected from people than usual. I think I might feel like without constant affirmation, people will forget about me. I do need to get better at expressing what I need. I think I'm afraid of being rejected. I literally wouldn't know how to respond to that. I usually don't communicate my needs unless someone is actively doing something that is infringing upon them (and even then I'm pretty reluctant about it). And thank you, I do find your responses thought-provoking.

    On another note, I'm still not quite sure why I have such a hard time expressing anything other than positive emotion to people. I'm guessing it might go too much deeper than "type" and have more to do with background and childhood things. Or it might just be as simple as "people don't want to be around toxic and moody people." Both, probably. One would think that I would be really good at expressing myself because I'm pretty charismatic and also fairly skilled at listening to others' problems and talking through them with them and giving good advice. When I do talk about my feelings though, I end up saying way too much and making people uncomfortable. Not really because of the content of what I'm saying I don't think, but just the weight with which I say it. I don't know if that makes literally any sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by providence View Post
    BTW this particular blurb from the Enneagram 2 was pretty spot on for another ESFJ friend of mine:

    Twos’ inner development may be limited by their “shadow side”—pride, self-deception, the tendency to become over-involved in the lives of others, and the tendency to manipulate others to get their own emotional needs met. Transformational work entails going into dark places in ourselves, and this very much goes against the grain of the Two’s personality structure, which prefers to see itself in only the most positive, glowing terms.

    Perhaps the biggest obstacle facing Twos, Threes, and Fours in their inner work is having to face their underlying Center fear of worthlessness. Beneath the surface, all three types fear that they are without value in themselves, and so they must be or do something extraordinary in order to win love and acceptance from others. In the average to unhealthy Levels, Twos present a false image of being completely generous and unselfish and of not wanting any kind of pay-off for themselves, when in fact, they can have enormous expectations and unacknowledged emotional needs.

    Average to unhealthy Twos seek validation of their worth by obeying their superego’s demands to sacrifice themselves for others. They believe they must always put others first and be loving and unselfish if they want to get love. The problem is that “putting others first” makes Twos secretly angry and resentful, feelings they work hard to repress or deny. Nevertheless, they eventually erupt in various ways, disrupting Twos’ relationships and revealing the inauthenticity of many of the average to unhealthy Two’s claims about themselves and the depth of their “love.”
    The bolded rings especially true for me. I don't want to see myself negatively at all. I can't bear the thought of not being a good person. If I do even one bad thing, I'm a terrible person--or at least that's what I think, even if I know that's not objectively true and that everyone does both good and bad things throughout their life. I wouldn't exactly say I sacrifice myself for others or actively work at having a selfless and loving reputation, though--I can be pretty consciously selfish sometimes, but I do have a pretty warm reputation with others (mostly I think due to the fact that I am very nonthreatening, friendly, personable, listen to anyone's problems even if I secretly don't want to, etc). The "transactional" nature of a core Two is something I struggle to relate to fully, at least on a conscious level, maybe because it's one of those negative things I don't want to see in myself. I think it's true to an extent, but not quite as drastically as a core Two. But I don't want to be like that at all. It makes me feel inauthentic. Maybe I am inauthentic though. I don't actually let many people into my emotional world. Just smiles and surface level things... I hate it. I don't hate it because it's small talk or something, I just hate that it's my own fault I can't let people get any closer to me yet I don't really know why. :/

    One thing I can say with confidence, is that when I do "pick" someone, it truly is selfless. It's like they can literally do no wrong, I accept them flaws and all. I wonder if maybe that's why I'm so subconsciously selective about who I let "in."

    Lol sorry I kind of go on tangents while replying because I keep thinking about new things that are related and how it might be involved. I don't actually know how much if this is really useful as a reply lol
    But thank you regardless!

  7. #26

    Quote Originally Posted by contradictionary View Post
    Live with an ESFJ lady. Tadaaaaa.

    The main issue (wouldn't call it problem cuz you guys are oversensitive, haha) is that you view life as in constant fear out of concerns of having no control, at this very moment. You couldn't accept if people especially those who care about you does not share the same view, does not validate it,thus you bulldoze them. Which is ironic because you wouldn't really bulldoze anyone who you don't know, nor have the slightest care about you.

    I wouldn't pretend I know how to cater to this issue except that i feel it is a matter of management of expectation. It can be learned though
    I have definitely had to do this in certain areas of my life as I've gotten older. I don't like not being in control at all. Haha
    It's been hard to get myself to accept that I can't control everyone else's opinions and views of me but I'm getting there. I think
    contradictionary thanked this post.

  8. #27

    Wait. I think I've cracked the code. I think my brain literally thinks that validation is love. And that the only way I can be loved by other people is to be validated by them. And I mean, they are related, the people who love you will want to give you validation, but... Now I wonder if the problem isn't even about needing validation, but needing someone to love and care about me. That makes sense. I have no idea what to do about that though. It's not like I can force other people to care about me. And "training" them to care about me by buttering them up just feels dishonest and disgusting. Obviously it's just a matter of letting life happen naturally and authentically but I did that for the first 20ish years of my life and nothing happened. Maybe I feel like I have to become someone else to be loved by others since it feels like no one cared about me when I was just being my ol' regular self. But I don't want to not be my regular self because I would rather people like me for me than for a mask or a character.

    I keep saying "maybe I feel this" and "maybe I feel that." I'm not even sure what I actually feel. Enneagram 2 is sure looking more relevant right about now.
    contradictionary thanked this post.

  9. #28

    New Update: I've sat on this for a few days, and I think what I need to do is learn to talk about myself less, and get others to talk about themselves more. Because of who I am, I'm not going to be able to just stop seeking out validation entirely, but if I train myself to do it less often, it will be more impactful when I do get it. People love to talk about themselves, and I am no exception, but I talk about myself too much. I want to be more fair and do the same for other people. If I am the type of person who listens to and validates others, they will do the same for me. I already do this, but it's unbalanced because I keep asking for too much. I need to ask for less and give more.
    grumpytiger and contradictionary thanked this post.

  10. #29

    I must admit i keep getting surprised at the result coming from the discipline of "pause and reflect".

    The way i see it that is one discipline which could be very hard to do for extroverted sensors.

    My big kudos to you

    Sent sans PC
    Suntide thanked this post.

  11. #30
    Unknown

    Hi there,

    I'm sorry to know about this. I wonder now, if it's an ESFJ thing. My best friend has the same issue, only- she also has Borderline Personality Disorder. So me and my friends are more patient of her. I'm glad you are talking it in therapy, cause your emotions need a release. Everyone also needs a good support system. So, maybe joining mental health support groups can also help a lot. There you will meet people who are going through the same and better understand you :). I think self- love and self- talk is also important. Treating yourself, the way you'd treat a loved one, might help you. Exercise helps. But don't suffer alone, there people out there who can help you. It's okay if you are needy sometimes. If you feel like talking to someone and there iss nobody, go to online free peer mental health websites. A lot of the people who wwill hear you out, have had some basic training. There might be a sympathetic nice person to help you out :). People act perfect outside, but inside everyones suffering a bit :). Take care. Be happy :)
    Suntide thanked this post.


     
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