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This is a discussion on Ask an ESFJ a question within the ESFJ Forum - The Caregivers forums, part of the SJ's Temperament Forum- The Overseers category; Originally Posted by Ashes4719 Ohh, can I ask you about how you and your partner deal with arguments or disagreements? ...

  1. #21

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashes4719 View Post
    Ohh, can I ask you about how you and your partner deal with arguments or disagreements? I am an ENFJ and my partner is an INTJ and we are so great together until an argument happens. Both of us are so bold headed we don't want to back down if that makes sense
    Arguments? We never argue :-P

    Haha. I guess it depends on the argument. If it's something small, then it'll usually start off a bit heated before ending in laughter with us poking fun at each other.

    If it's a BIG argument, then the situation is very different. Typical ESFJ, I HATE confrontation, where as my partner will confidently take on literally anyone for an argument (which weirdly is one of things I massively admire about him when it's being used for a good cause). When this situation does happen it will normally result in me clamming up, which unfortunately makes him even more heated because he thinks I'm just giving him the 'silent treatment' when I'm actually not. Rational goes out the window on both sides. We'll normally just go to different parts of the house until we've both calmed down, and then afterwards we'll talk about it all rationally. Given we've been together 13 years at the end of this month, this way of dealing with a 'big argument' must be working well for us if/and when one does happen haha.
    Jawz, Suntide and Ashes4719 thanked this post.

  2. #22

    @The Penguin , hmmm....not really sure about that. I feel like I would need more info to be able to help you more. Can you maybe describe a typical day or what an ideal day would look like to you. Or why do you think it is that you don't get along with most people? Do you think they're just stupid or don't want to put in the effort? What in life makes you really happy and what do you like to do in your free time?
    Last edited by SummerRoads; 04-13-2019 at 01:38 PM.

  3. #23

    @Ashes4719 , dealing with arguments as an ESFJ married to an INTP is tricky sometimes. Fortunately, we've been married for 10+ years now so it's gotten easier. He tries to split hairs on wordings of things and used to in the past try to make everything sound like it had to be totally logical (like emotions weren't valid arguments, etc). Little things I just let go and for big things, we found it's usually best for him to take some introverted alone time and cool down (even though I as an extrovert want to talk about it immediately... but that usually ends up badly so we've found over the years to just let the introvert go get some space for awhile then come back and talk). Once we reconvene to talk more calmly, there are times in the past when I just back peddle and think in my head this isn't worth it and let's just get along again and move forward. Now I've gotten better at actually talking through things and not back peddling just to avoid conflict. He's gotten better at validating my feelings and realizing there's a "feeler logic" that may not always stack up with concrete facts etc. Without that realization, it was hard at the way beginning of our relationship because I felt really misunderstood and he in return felt very frustrated by not understanding what was happening logically plus getting flooded by confusing emotions (mine and his).

    I think ENFJs might be different, I don't know. But the ENFJ friend I know is much more out spoken and for lack of a better word "aggressive" in arguments and very stubborn. She makes me feel uncomfortable when she gets like that and makes me feel like she doesn't actually want to hear anyone else's perspective because she's so locked into her own and kind of "attacks" (although I don't think she sees it as that) people who speak up and differ from her viewpoint. I don't know if this is just me or an ESFJ thing but I feel like I keep pretty calm and while I can totally be stubborn too and think I'm right, I'd rather have peace and calm than always be "right." In the end, no one truly "wins" arguments in a relationship because you still have to live with this person forever so proving that you're "right" and being stubborn about it really only drives the other person away....which in the end hurts you because you want to have a good relationship with your partner and not just be the winner and alone. One of the many reasons I try to be careful with my wording during heated arguments is because I know at some point we'll make up again but I don't want to regret the words I've said because I truly love this person and want to have a harmonious family. And to be totally honest, I expect more of myself and slumming it during fights makes me look bad to myself.
    Last edited by SummerRoads; 04-13-2019 at 01:47 PM.
    Jawz and Ashes4719 thanked this post.

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  5. #24

    Quote Originally Posted by orion83uk View Post
    Arguments? We never argue :-P

    Haha. I guess it depends on the argument. If it's something small, then it'll usually start off a bit heated before ending in laughter with us poking fun at each other.

    If it's a BIG argument, then the situation is very different. Typical ESFJ, I HATE confrontation, where as my partner will confidently take on literally anyone for an argument (which weirdly is one of things I massively admire about him when it's being used for a good cause). When this situation does happen it will normally result in me clamming up, which unfortunately makes him even more heated because he thinks I'm just giving him the 'silent treatment' when I'm actually not. Rational goes out the window on both sides. We'll normally just go to different parts of the house until we've both calmed down, and then afterwards we'll talk about it all rationally. Given we've been together 13 years at the end of this month, this way of dealing with a 'big argument' must be working well for us if/and when one does happen haha.
    That has worked so well in my relationship as well. We both are so bold headed that when something gets heated we tend don't really use logic so I have noticed that when we just take a little and calm down it does do wonders. Congratulations on going on 13 years! That is an accomplishment! We just celebrated five years together this last month and it has been going well so far other than the occasional argument. :)


    Quote Originally Posted by SummerRoads View Post
    He tries to split hairs on wordings of things and used to in the past try to make everything sound like it had to be totally logical (like emotions weren't valid arguments, etc).
    This right here! In my realtionship this can turn a small argument into a large one. My INTJ will nit pick the hell out of my wording and I hate it. He totally knows what I mean but he likes to try and get me with the word choice which drives me up a wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by SummerRoads View Post
    But the ENFJ friend I know is much more out spoken and for lack of a better word "aggressive" in arguments and very stubborn. She makes me feel uncomfortable when she gets like that and makes me feel like she doesn't actually want to hear anyone else's perspective because she's so locked into her own and kind of "attacks" (although I don't think she sees it as that) people who speak up and differ from her viewpoint. I don't know if this is just me or an ESFJ thing but I feel like I keep pretty calm and while I can totally be stubborn too and think I'm right, I'd rather have peace and calm than always be "right." In the end, no one truly "wins" arguments in a relationship because you still have to live with this person forever so proving that you're "right" and being stubborn about it really only drives the other person away....which in the end hurts you because you want to have a good relationship with your partner and not just be the winner and alone. One of the many reasons I try to be careful with my wording during heated arguments is because I know at some point we'll make up again but I don't want to regret the words I've said because I truly love this person and want to have a harmonious family. And to be totally honest, I expect more of myself and slumming it during fights makes me look bad to myself.
    You made several great points! I don't know why but I have noticed that ENFJs do have a very strong opinion I guess you could say. I see it in myself and other ENFJs but I have really tried to work on it. Sometimes I just think something is right because to me its obvious and morally right even though to someone else it is not true for them. I think this can be part of the issues with the arguments I have had with my partner. He finds things very logical and it must be right because it's logical while I am on the other end saying it must be right because it makes others/me feel this way.

    I also agree with the point you made about always being "right". I know that is so stupid and immature but sometimes I do feel like that so I do definitely need to work on just trying to comprise since I do love this person and want to be with them.

    Anyway, just as a disclaimer, I am not always arguing with my partner! I was re-reading my messages and was like oh my gosh I make it seem like I am in this unhappy relationship. I am very happy, I just wanted opinions on how others dealt with arguments in relationships since they are bound to happen.
    orion83uk thanked this post.

  6. #25

    @Ashes4719 , no worries! Never thought even for a second that you all argue a lot or anything like that. All people in relationships have disagreements and I read somewhere in some psychology paper that the way couples resolve these fights are more indicative of their future success than whether or not they ever have an argument.

    I'm not sure if this will help you with an INTJ, but I have found with my INTP husband that I can't argue in his wheelhouse. Like anytime I would try to defend my side with pure logic and no emotion, I immediately lose. There's just no logic on logic fighting with an INTP that I'm going to win. They'll always find that one word that you said that could be taken a different way. That was hard sometimes because I honestly didn't even remember what I said because it was more about the feelings behind the words than the actual dictionary definition. So then he felt like I was being evasive and changing my "story" when I would say I didn't remember saying those words or something like that. I wanted him to get the emotions and he wanted to get the words and we just talked right past each other into a world of hurt.

    What I've realized is that back then I felt sometimes like he should just "know" what I mean when I talk about feelings things (because it's SO obvious to me), but the truth is...he just didn't. Sometimes he needed to piece together the facts of the timeline of events before he could get to the emotions. And for me, it's like I just want him to get why I'm so upset and the feelings involved and the rest of it doesn't matter. But now we've found a better way to talk about it. He tries to validate my feelings and I'll try to find ways to make things a little less emotionally charged or directed (he would totally just shut down and not even try to listen if he felt I was directing my emotional anger at him vs just wanting to be understood). He accepts now that there's a "feeler logic" and while it doesn't always make sense to him, he know it's real and doesn't try to squash them anymore. And in return, I try to realize that sometimes too many emotions are overwhelming for him and I'll try my best to stay calm and collected and not too stubborn. I focus more on being understood than setting out to "win."

    About the feeling like sometimes you just feel morally right, I think that's something we all can feel sometimes. I used to think things were much more black and white than I do now. My husband has really helped among other things broaden my view on it. He once dissected in great detail the old "Golden Rule' that so many kids back in the day were taught about "treating others the way you'd like to be treated." At first I was like, well of course. Makes sense. Good rule to live by. But then he was like but what if you're someone who enjoys being cat called because you like the attention and it makes you feel attractive, do you get to just go treat others that way then too even if it may make them uncomfortable? Obviously there are many other examples. The point being, we don't know what's best for others. So our "moral rightness" may work for us but may not necessarily be right for anyone else so when we hold this up high and use it as a grounds to fight all scorched earth, it really just weakens our relationships and makes us less open minded. I've also been around a few *STJs who are older and hold on firmly to their "rightness" and man, it makes them just look very closed off to the world and embittered. I really don't want to end up that way just so on my deathbed I can say "Ah ha! I was right! See everyone!".... What's the point of that?


    Anyway, hope some of that made sense. Enjoyed reading your posts!
    Last edited by SummerRoads; 04-14-2019 at 05:53 PM.
    Ashes4719 thanked this post.

  7. #26

    Quote Originally Posted by SummerRoads View Post
    @Ashes4719

    About the feeling like sometimes you just feel morally right, I think that's something we all can feel sometimes. I used to think things were much more black and white than I do now. My husband has really helped among other things broaden my view on it. He once dissected in great detail the old "Golden Rule' that so many kids back in the day were taught about "treating others the way you'd like to be treated." At first I was like, well of course. Makes sense. Good rule to live by. But then he was like but what if you're someone who enjoys being cat called because you like the attention and it makes you feel attractive, do you get to just go treat others that way then too even if it may make them uncomfortable? Obviously there are many other examples. The point being, we don't know what's best for others. So our "moral rightness" may work for us but may not necessarily be right for anyone else so when we hold this up high and use it as a grounds to fight all scorched earth, it really just weakens our relationships and makes us less open minded. I've also been around a few *STJs who are older and hold on firmly to their "rightness" and man, it makes them just look very closed off to the world and embittered. I really don't want to end up that way just so on my deathbed I can say "Ah ha! I was right! See everyone!".... What's the point of that?


    Anyway, hope some of that made sense. Enjoyed reading your posts!
    Yes, your input has totally helped! I am so glad I read these posts and asked if anyone else had any ways to get through arguments with their SO. I also have tried to logically argue with him but it never works so I will try to just explain in my point of view. I just have tried to bridge that gap but the same thing will happen with me. I forget my words but remember the meaning and I end up confusing my boyfriend even more because I used synonyms and I don't even remember what I said because I was just upset. So, that is a good idea and I think I am going to try and use that next time to explain my feelings more. He also gets overwhelmed with feelings so that is why I have backed off but I think I just need to get better at communicating with him and trying to explain my point from a level headed perspective.

    Haha yes, I have noticed that. My grandfather is an ESTJ and he is so stuck in his conservative ways. Yes, I think having an open mind is the healthiest way to live. Always willing to listen and learn. I once heard this saying that said something like "everyone you speak with knows something that you don't" and I have always tried to live by that and ask questions.

    Hahaha I really don't want to end up that way just so on my deathbed I can say "Ah ha! I was right! See everyone!"! That does seem very childish doesn't it yet some people I guess want that. Anyway, yes thank you so writing to me! It is so enjoyable to relate with people on here and read their stories. I am definitely going to try and use your tactic to better communicate with my INTJ :)
    SummerRoads thanked this post.

  8. #27
    ENTP - The Visionaries

    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    so, a lot of people online say I'm ESFJ

    here are my doubts about that

    I don't really have friends, I don't know why but I can't seem to really get along with most people, I don't really know how to read other people's emotions or needs, or how I come across - seems like ESFJs would be better with all of this. I can see a lot of similarities between myself and many of the types. The odd thing is, I don't really see myself in the SPs or NJs . . . even though some keep pointing me to some kind of SP.

    I'm looking to see if any ESFJ relates to this. Maybe dominant Fe doesn't necessarily mean that I would be better at these things.
    Word up Pal.

    My ESFJ wife and ESFJ son have very few friends.
    My son still has some hangers on from school and what not
    but now that he has his job/woman/kid(s) ? That is shrinking out.

    My ESFJ wife has like zero friends yet everyone likes her.
    She wholeheartedly (for better or for worse) dedicates all
    of her time to myself and our family. Now keep in mind we
    have enough family to keep her busy.

    I dont find as much that my ESFJ's can read my emotions as easy as say the NF in
    my life can.
    Yet they can read the rooms emotions very well. Very well.
    Think of the group with ESFJ. That is how they operate.
    ( I will caveat this by adding that any ESFJ who has an SO/Kids?
    They definitely, over time, can read that person via recognized
    cues that they have learned. The same way ENTP can).


    Its not MY SO that enthralls the ESFJ as much as it is the
    ESFJ's life. Everything around her/him. Fairness. That is
    what I see in ESFJ I know. Even at the expense of an SO.
    Which is a good thing to be sure. It keeps me honest.

    Think of friends or groups to an ESFJ like this.....

    They are the manager of the group. The whole group must
    be functional and happy (if possible). So what that means is
    even the ESFJ's second in command can get the raw truth
    all the way down to the lonely part timer. The group
    on a whole is what my ESFJ's look at. One person within
    the group is but a small piece to the whole.

    I would say, as you mentioned, that dominant Fe would not be
    as good or used for the forecasting of the unknown (such as what someone
    may be feeling) I would assume that is the N stomping ground coupled with a healthy
    F.
    So have a look here.
    INFP=Fi/Ne
    ENFP=Ne/Fi
    INFJ=Ni/Fe
    ENFJ=Fe/Ni

    You see, I may assume that the types up there are
    more astute at gleaning emotion. Intuitively.

    As appose to the SF types that lead or follow with the S/F.



    Maybe way off there... just guessing.

    Hear tell from a member I trust that the function stacks are crappy and
    do not mean anything so I tend to second guess using them.
    Dr Robotnik thanked this post.

  9. #28

    @SummerRoads , would you like me to ask if this thread could be made sticky :-) (just so happens I'm also asking an ESFJ a question here too).
    SummerRoads thanked this post.

  10. #29

    Sure! Go for it if you have those kind of magic powers to make it happen :)
    orion83uk thanked this post.

  11. #30

    Quote Originally Posted by SummerRoads View Post
    Sure! Go for it if you have those kind of magic powers to make it happen :)
    I don't, but I know of an ESTJ who does.

    Hi @Coburn

    Would you be able to make this thread sticky for us? Many thanks in advance.
    Coburn thanked this post.


     
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