[ESFJ] Why does everyone think ESFJs are stupid??? - Page 31

Why does everyone think ESFJs are stupid???

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This is a discussion on Why does everyone think ESFJs are stupid??? within the ESFJ Forum - The Caregivers forums, part of the SJ's Temperament Forum- The Overseers category; Originally Posted by AusarLacrimosa Respectfully, I disagree (On the IQ statement you made, not on the snowflakiest snowflake). I was ...

  1. #301

    Quote Originally Posted by AusarLacrimosa View Post
    Respectfully, I disagree (On the IQ statement you made, not on the snowflakiest snowflake).

    I was going to chime in on saying that if someone were to go off an IQ test's standards alone, then ESFJ's would typically have the hardest time of any MBTI.

    The following is why:
    (Since I still can't post links , I'll mention that the following quote is from oddlydevelopedtypes[dot]com under the INTP IQ section)

    "I.Q. tests measure abstract reasoning skill (Intuition), the ability to solve problems alone and silently within your head (Introversion), the ability to think objectively about non-people oriented problems (Thinking), and flexibility in solving never-before-seen problems (Perceiving). There is no fresh news here; all of this is predicted by type theory.
    And indeed, the more of those preferences you have, the higher your score on an I.Q. test is likely to be. Introverts tend to do better than Extraverts. Intuitives tend to do better than Sensors. Thinkers are slightly preferred over Feelers. Perceivers have an advantage over Judgers. These are average trends, of course, but they all add up to a clear ranking based on personality characteristics.
    For this reason, INTPs are predicted to do the best of all types on I.Q. tests."

    Keeping in mind that the IQ test is just one form, and one of the oldest forms, for measuring certain kinds of intelligence. If someone were either completely old fashioned, or if they were silly enough to believe that an IQ test is able to predict a humans full intelligence, then they make the wronged assumption that ESFJ's are stupid (When in fact, they're not). That said, I really wish they'd come out with some other solid tests focused on Interpersonal intelligence and such. I'd love to improve upon my horrid people skills.
    You make a good point. I once bumped into an IQ test that was asking questions about baseball rules.
    AusarLacrimosa thanked this post.

  2. #302

    Quote Originally Posted by AusarLacrimosa View Post
    Respectfully, I disagree (On the IQ statement you made, not on the snowflakiest snowflake).

    I was going to chime in on saying that if someone were to go off an IQ test's standards alone, then ESFJ's would typically have the hardest time of any MBTI.

    The following is why:
    (Since I still can't post links , I'll mention that the following quote is from oddlydevelopedtypes[dot]com under the INTP IQ section)

    "I.Q. tests measure abstract reasoning skill (Intuition), the ability to solve problems alone and silently within your head (Introversion), the ability to think objectively about non-people oriented problems (Thinking), and flexibility in solving never-before-seen problems (Perceiving). There is no fresh news here; all of this is predicted by type theory.
    And indeed, the more of those preferences you have, the higher your score on an I.Q. test is likely to be. Introverts tend to do better than Extraverts. Intuitives tend to do better than Sensors. Thinkers are slightly preferred over Feelers. Perceivers have an advantage over Judgers. These are average trends, of course, but they all add up to a clear ranking based on personality characteristics.
    For this reason, INTPs are predicted to do the best of all types on I.Q. tests."

    Keeping in mind that the IQ test is just one form, and one of the oldest forms, for measuring certain kinds of intelligence. If someone were either completely old fashioned, or if they were silly enough to believe that an IQ test is able to predict a humans full intelligence, then they make the wronged assumption that ESFJ's are stupid (When in fact, they're not). That said, I really wish they'd come out with some other solid tests focused on Interpersonal intelligence and such. I'd love to improve upon my horrid people skills.
    The IQ thing has been debated to death on the internet. Facts:

    1. ESFJs would have the most difficult time with it on average.
    2. It doesn't make them inferior in any way.

    I honestly dislike those who thinks statement 2 is false, those that actually thinks ESFJs are inferior because their IQ score is in general lower.

    HOWEVER, I also dislike those who gets overly personal whenever IQ and personality types are brought together, they start going defensive and even tries denies the first statement. They give reasons like some ESFJs are super smart. Yes but few outlying examples don't disprove the general statement. That reasoning makes zero sense, what makes perfect sense is that some functions will contribute to IQ score more than others, and types that carries those function as primary or secondary will score higher. They themselves are the the ones adding negative connotations to low IQ scores and treat it like an insult when it's just a description of someone's attribute. IQ is like height, tall people are not superior to short people. But by that point most of them has lost the ability to listen to reasons which is quite infuriating.

    Kudos to you. I agree with every word.
    Last edited by Coffee_Yum; 07-22-2016 at 11:51 AM.

  3. #303

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee_Yum View Post
    The IQ thing has been debated to death on the internet. Facts:

    1. ESFJs would have the most difficult time with it on average.
    2. It doesn't make them inferior in any way.

    I honestly dislike those who thinks statement 2 is false, those that actually thinks ESFJs are inferior because their IQ score is in general lower.

    HOWEVER, I also dislike those who gets overly personal whenever IQ and personality types are brought together, they start going defensive and even tries denies the first statement. They give reasons like some ESFJs are super smart. Yes but few outlying examples don't disprove the general statement. That reasoning makes zero sense, what makes perfect sense is that some functions will contribute to IQ score more than others, and types that carries those function as primary or secondary will score higher. They themselves are the the ones adding negative connotations to low IQ scores and treat it like an insult when it's just a description of someone's attribute. IQ is like height, tall people are not superior to short people. But by that point most of them has lost the ability to listen to reasons which is quite infuriating.

    Kudos to you. I agree with every word.
    Bless you for your wisdom! As I was getting to just before this point, I was willing to insert a brash version of my two cents, but no need.

    <<lecture on>>

    I do believe that an important point to be reinforced here (that is always lost because we get caught up in the labels and their connotations) is that MB personality typing and Jung cognitive theory is about how people interact with the outside world in a hierarchy of the 8 processes. It's about how you're wired; not what you do with it. You can search the internet and find interesting discussion about how people can exhibit use of the 4 cognitive processes that are not their dom thru inferior. Don't know if I agree with that, but the point here is that human behavior doesn't fit into neat tidy boxes. The original question is not a terribly useful one, and you know that because here we are 31 pages later...

    The other observation I've seen in my short time on this site is that the posts seem to be dominated by the xNTx world. I suppose that's not a big surprise. My only criticism (which I am so pleased to see that Mr. Coffee_Yum could never be accused of!!) is that SJ's love to speculate about NT's and vice versa. Imagine - speaking with such certainty and authority about the other side - which happens to be your secondary and their primary skill(s). That's why it's speculation! When you think you know what you don't know, they call that arrogance. I am not saying that everyone is being arrogant. What I am saying is that it's important to discern whether people are being inquisitive to further their own understandings or projecting something about themselves to an external audience.

    <<lecture off>>

    Again, Coffee_Yum, your insight is praiseworthy.

    So many kudos for the way you set the issue in a straight up fashion. I'd have done so myself, but I'm just an emotionally crazed ESFJ on overdrive. (ok, just kidding everyone.)
    Shadow Tag, Coffee_Yum and HGy thanked this post.

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  5. #304

    I don't think so. My ex-was a bitch and an ESFJ and they were far from stupid. They figured out my game quick, and that's amazing since a team of apparently "Trained professionals" couldn't even figure me out. Never trust a Histrionic! They did say they thought they were stupid but being able to manipulate me is hard for the average person.

  6. #305

    I would say "stupid" is a generic term. IQ score on the other hand is a more focused measure. "Smart" people can score low in IQ test because they prefer to use their mental prowess elsewhere outside of the inclusive range of IQ. A more understandable example would be comparing an academically smart vs a street smart person. Both of equal intelligence, but the former would score higher in IQ tests.
    Last edited by Coffee_Yum; 07-22-2016 at 10:01 PM.

  7. #306

    Quote Originally Posted by briand View Post
    SJ's love to speculate about NT's and vice versa. Imagine - speaking with such certainty and authority about the other side - which happens to be your secondary and their primary skill(s). That's why it's speculation! When you think you know what you don't know, they call that arrogance. I am not saying that everyone is being arrogant. What I am saying is that it's important to discern whether people are being inquisitive to further their own understandings or projecting something about themselves to an external audience.
    Many thanks for the support. I think that could be more of a "J" trait. From my understanding of the letters, as well as observations of those around me, people with "J" prefers to have things concluded to give them a sense of direction. Their innate fear is directionless and that applies to everything from opinions on people, objects, issues, as well as their life's goal. This drives them into making speculations when information isn't complete. They have the tendency to make the most likely scenario a conclusion and act as such until new information appears that can forces them to re-adjust their previous conclusion. On the opposite spectrum "P" are comfortable with leaving things open, and therefore they do not act as if something is 100% concluded until there is solid evidence. I would say the innate fear of "P" is being wrong.

  8. #307

    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee_Yum View Post
    Many thanks for the support. I think that could be more of a "J" trait. From my understanding of the letters, as well as observations of those around me, people with "J" prefers to have things concluded to give them a sense of direction. Their innate fear is directionless and that applies to everything from opinions on people, objects, issues, as well as their life's goal. This drives them into making speculations when information isn't complete. They have the tendency to make the most likely scenario a conclusion and act as such until new information appears that can forces them to re-adjust their previous conclusion. On the opposite spectrum "P" are comfortable with leaving things open, and therefore they do not act as if something is 100% concluded until there is solid evidence. I would say the innate fear of "P" is being wrong.
    I see what you're saying, but I don't necessarily think of it in that frame. True, judgers use the external as their reference point in attempting to achieve inner world harmony; while perceivers have established their inner world harmony and are now free to explore the outside.

    But consider the perceiver that has an ego the size of France and the arrogance to along with it. Done the world; seen it all; knows it all. I'd offer that that person is so fixated on his own understanding of things, that he'd come to the same conclusion as the lost and hapless judger.

    So, maybe not a J or P think. Just another thought. What I would agree with you on is that it's more commonly found in the xSFJ world which is magnified by the fact that there are more sensors than intuitives on the planet.

    It's an interesting academic discussion, nonetheless that allows for many different perspectives!
    HGy thanked this post.

  9. #308

    Quote Originally Posted by briand View Post
    I see what you're saying, but I don't necessarily think of it in that frame. True, judgers use the external as their reference point in attempting to achieve inner world harmony; while perceivers have established their inner world harmony and are now free to explore the outside.

    But consider the perceiver that has an ego the size of France and the arrogance to along with it. Done the world; seen it all; knows it all. I'd offer that that person is so fixated on his own understanding of things, that he'd come to the same conclusion as the lost and hapless judger.

    So, maybe not a J or P think. Just another thought. What I would agree with you on is that it's more commonly found in the xSFJ world which is magnified by the fact that there are more sensors than intuitives on the planet.

    It's an interesting academic discussion, nonetheless that allows for many different perspectives!
    We're not necessarily in disagreement there. Sure anyone can be arrogant I agree 100%, but I was actually referring more towards one's preferred outward presentation. When it comes to outward expression, wouldn't "J" be more likely to "speaking with such certainty and authority"? Consider 2 people, one "J" and one "P", with the same level of insight on the same issue, obviously not 100% so some speculation must be present. They also have the same level of ego, slightly smaller than France, perhaps Spain. From my experience "J" tends to speak with more certainty outwardly even though inwardly both may understands that there were assumptions made.

  10. #309

    Ok, I am not commenting directly to the question as to why "everyone" thinks ESFJ'S are stupid because obviously some people have already disagreed so, logically, one can't say "everyone" feels that way. I do want to comment, however, on your feeling that anyone could be a genious depending on their willingness to learn. I was a teacher...if this is true, how do you explain the C student who cares much more about their education and spends hours studying but still can't seem to get ahold of that B or A versus those students who get an A in the same classes with no extra study time outside of the classroom?

    I agree that everyone has the capacity to learn and the more effort an individual puts into their studies, the more knowledge they will retain. I wholeheartedly disagree that just anyone could be considered a genious. I was a straight A student in school but it took a lot of work. I am constantly researching different topics, ideas/theories, etc but no matter how much effort I put in, I would never be considered a genious. I don't mean this to come across as self deprecating, I just know my own limitations.

    More to the topic though, no matter what your intelligence level, if you react emotionally, those around will perceive you as being less intelligent. Having a dominant Fe would definitely cause a challenge in that regard.

  11. #310

    ^


    Not everyone's going to be incredible at everything no matter their effort. But school is also limited. Limited in methods and limited in areas of competence. Those kids that worked really hard for their Cs were great at other things than the subjects their schooling encompassed, or they were great in ways that school wasn't able to bring out in them.

    My ESFJ mom has voiced her feelings that she was never a good test taker, and that she's isn't as "book smart" as our dad (INTP). But she is really, really intelligent. She essentially has an internal compass, she can socially finesse her way in or out of any situation, she remembers all sorts of detailed data, she's very quick at math, she's very intuitive at working with young kids, she's great at prioritizing, and she successfully juggles full-time work as a leader in her department, being the head of a household, and caretaking for her aging mother. It absolutely kills me that some petty standardized tests made her feel like she is less intelligent. She's incredible.
    Last edited by angelfish; 08-01-2016 at 07:05 PM.
    Cuthalion thanked this post.


     
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