[HGy]

Esfj are very smart and usually good at whatever career they choose.

I would even say that the ESFJ I know in real life are more intelligent than the NT friends I have.

The typisms and stereotypes are getting really old.. and this is always perpetuated by intuitive types. If I have to hear one more intp's sob story about how they were emotionally abused by an esfj because said esfj told them to clean their room ect, I will go nuts.

[Groovy]

These threads reaaaallllyyy make me want to poke my eyeballs out!!! :)

[Dancing Thoughts]

^


Not everyone's going to be incredible at everything no matter their effort. But school is also limited. Limited in methods and limited in areas of competence. Those kids that worked really hard for their Cs were great at other things than the subjects their schooling encompassed, or they were great in ways that school wasn't able to bring out in them.

My ESFJ mom has voiced her feelings that she was never a good test taker, and that she's isn't as "book smart" as our dad (INTP). But she is really, really intelligent. She essentially has an internal compass, she can socially finesse her way in or out of any situation, she remembers all sorts of detailed data, she's very quick at math, she's very intuitive at working with young kids, she's great at prioritizing, and she successfully juggles full-time work as a leader in her department, being the head of a household, and caretaking for her aging mother. It absolutely kills me that some petty standardized tests made her feel like she is less intelligent. She's incredible.

You are correct that my example of educational performance was not the best for an argument of genius and, honestly, that was just for my own inability to come up with a better example. I agree that all people have their own strengths and I try to help people recognize them. For those students I referenced, perseverance was ONE of their strengths and one that will help them throughout their lives. It is highly likely that if they pursue a career in a field that is best suited for their strengths, they will perform better than a lot of those straight A students who never really had to try.

Nevertheless, I do still believe that "genius" is a term that should be used for a special few, not all people but I do apologize if the example I gave initially offended you.

[angelfish]

You are correct that my example of educational performance was not the best for an argument of genius and, honestly, that was just for my own inability to come up with a better example. I agree that all people have their own strengths and I try to help people recognize them. For those students I referenced, perseverance was ONE of their strengths and one that will help them throughout their lives. It is highly likely that if they pursue a career in a field that is best suited for their strengths, they will perform better than a lot of those straight A students who never really had to try.

Nevertheless, I do still believe that "genius" is a term that should be used for a special few, not all people but I do apologize if the example I gave initially offended you.

I appreciate your explanation, and for mentioning perseverance. I agree with you that it often overcomes "talent". It was a hard lesson I had to learn myself, being on the other side of the fence! Towards the end of my high school years I noticed how my peers kids who'd never really seemed to stand out academically were nevertheless actually getting great grades, getting great recommendations from teachers, and getting into Ivies because they had persistence, self-discipline, resilience, and internal confidence - traits which often seem inborn for ESFJs - meanwhile myself and quite a few of my "stellar" student peers were floundering as our workloads and/or the difficulty of the material was finally catching up with our short term memory and knack for academic performance. Now, as a young adult, my perspective has changed drastically. I used to think having academic intellect somehow made select individuals superior. While I still place high value on knowledge and learning, I've witnessed how determination and persistence, not academic prowess, are more powerful determinants of longterm success.

Regarding "genius", I'm fine with it being applied to particularly outstanding people in any number of fields. I think the Einstein quote is simply using another definition, but I love that a genius in the former sense is using it in the latter, recognizing and acknowledging high-level skill and talent in others even when that recognition and acknowledgement theoretically come at the compromise of the basis of his own celebrity. I have a lot of respect for that - though I'm sure his cockiness helped!

If I have to hear one more intp's sob story about how they were emotionally abused by an esfj because said esfj told them to clean their room ect, I will go nuts.

[Hollow Man]

Probably partially projection, partially fear, and partially truth.

Edit: Maybe it's just a little weird for some to think that an ESFJ could be open or willing to be so helpful or welcoming.

[huhh]

Because they're stupid (Not the esfj's)

[Gossip Ghoul]

For those that look at the four letters: E= extroverted which means you're not introspective / introverted, so you're shallow.
S= concrete not abstract so you can't possibly theorize in the elevated fashion intuitives think in.
F= Pretty straight forward semantics here and the weight feelings & emotions vs logic and stoicism carry + their associations to gender and the lot.
J= Rigid / Tunnel Vision

For those that care about functions; Fe in general carries a horrible stigma with Fe types (dom & aux) being most likely to be manipulative according to people. Also being the most emotional or making decisions based on emotions and not logic (bias towards the connotation each WORD means). A lot of people would dispute this or would chalk it up to some kind of complex or playing the victim but I think it's tied to how we view the female gender & it's stereotypes. Fe dom and Fe aux would mean you have inferior and tert-Ti, respectively. And that means you have shitty Ti = shitty logic / shitty at breaking things down in a logical fashion. Again with the whole logic > feeling thing; logic being valued over emotions in western culture / society. Lastly, aux Si carries the whole concrete vs abstract thing too. "Not being able to see beyond what is". Someone typed me as Si dom once out of spite due to venting about something where they thought I carried a grudge. Therefor they carried a negative notion of Si dom's to make that comment.

I think that someone in the early days that had a lot of weight within the MBTI community had a bad experience with someone and typed them as ESFJ and that just snowballed and led to how the MBTI community is now (or at least how it is here) and why ESFJ is apparently the shittiest type in the eyes of many. Also, most people won't straight up say ESFJ is the shittiest type because diplomacy, political correctness, etc; but when they think someone is X negative trait you can bet their first instinct would be to label them as an SFJ. If someone thinks you're emotional or not as smart as them = SFJ.

Especially if they don't know them well enough.

[Sensational]

https://youtu.be/D1vQJFF2TKQ

I actually think Esfj can be very cunning (clearly that takes intelligence). The problem I see when it applies and where they can be stupid is either being dogmatic (but its not like that only applies to esfjs there are other types this would also fit with). And then the other thing is being their as well as the publics worst enemy. And what I mean is because they are savy and socially versed they can often enable the powers that be. They often gravitate towards who has the power because they would rather be a dirty right hand man with status in work, social, and school settings then a nobody. The problem is they usually end up being everyone elses as well as their own worst enemy. Why because they will often be ruthless in a pack if it means job or status security (they do not want to loose their seat of right hand man even if it means being someones bitch or doing their dirty work). This can be considered smart in terms of job or status security in the small picture the big picture they are usually enabling. Enabling enabling enabling enabling I cannot say it enough this is where I think most (not all) but most esfjs I know can be idiotic. As individuals most of the ones I know well hate the system they serve. They do not realize not only are they slaves to it but because they dominate in numbers they are keeping the hand that holds THEM down TOO up (as well as everyone else down) all just for small picture security. This is sooooo idiotic to me. (ie I am not a blind bureaucrat and I HATE nepotism as a form of work status especially). I hear esfjs all the time complain about the toxicity at work. And they love to encourage other people with more balls to speak up and do their dirty work. But they sure do not like when part of the HR report regards their hand in it all or when it threatens their comfort or security in the situation. Ie they usually would rather keep an abuser of power in a leadership role (even if they think the person is unethical) if it means they keep a comfortable role ie they are easily bought off for status or security and exchange their own dignity much of the time. And because esfjs make up for alot of the population this can be toxic. Big picture it creates alot of turn over if it gets out of hand and is not regulated. Abusers of power in my work place its an ESTJ feed off of this complacency. Also this sort of seedy behavior can stand out more and mark them more and overshadow their usually individually charitable or good natired side. It cancels out so much greatness an esfj can have when the negative out weighs. Some of the best caregivers I know in my work place as far as one on one care are esfjs. But when they sabitage the work environment among employees and stir pots or enable faulty politics it can cancel out so much good servitude they really do have deep down. Its amazing how one type can exhibit such a contrast in some of the kindest attributes but as well polarize it with some of the nastiest rath when unhealthy. I have said it before I will say it again as individuals I think most esfjs are very kind. As a pack or socially in a collective group they can have the potential to be just nasty tho. And what does that say for someone if they cancel out so much good and collective bargaining by being two different people based on if theh have backing. It just sucks they usually are decent themselves but blind to their hierarchy whether be work school or socially. Some of the kindest individual gestures I have ever had bestowed on me were from the thoughtfulness of esfjs. And then some of the most underhanded blindsiding with no apparent reason has also come from them as well. So I am not implying esfjs are all bad. They have alot of good. But man that bad side just can do some serious damage. It does account for alot of people being alienated socially in various settings.

Its just a movie but mean girls Gretchen Weiners is a great example of stupid right hand man. She is giving Regina power and doing most of the dirty work.

Now I am not saying every esfj is like this. I am saying this sort of behavior is what makes them idiotic. And when they exhibit these traits they are everyone's as well as themselves worst enemy. And the irony in taking comfort in a role or position but missing how transparent everyone outside the bubble sees these situations.

When it applies is all I am saying. My bro is esfj he is not a mean guy he is very nice.

[exilevilify]

lmao rationally doesnt that mean reversed means the complete opposite of Einstein???

[Teen Rose]

My friend lacks depth and is so pushy.