[ESFP] Sensor/ESFP stereotypes

Sensor/ESFP stereotypes

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This is a discussion on Sensor/ESFP stereotypes within the ESFP Forum - The Performers forums, part of the SP's Temperament Forum- The Creators category; HI! I recently discovered that I'm an ESFP and overall I'm exited to finally know my type. However, (re)reading a ...

  1. #1

    Sensor/ESFP stereotypes

    HI!

    I recently discovered that I'm an ESFP and overall I'm exited to finally know my type. However, (re)reading a lot of MBTI related stuff and encountering the biases and sterotypes about ESFPs and sensors (obviously I noticed that these things exist before I got typed but it didn't affect me personally previously) in some places kind of made me feel iffy bc:

    1. there are many sterotypes i just can't relate to. Like, I know that often sterotypes are brought up jokingly and i do find jokes about sterotypes funny at times but at the same time it's like "Ha, ha, ha... I can't relate...:("
    2. some people actually believe these things (you know, SOME intuits are only into MBTI to boost their egos and feel superior to ppl)

    How do you experience this? How do you react and what do you do to ignore it? Also how do I convince my MBTI-interested friends (and other poeple with biases i may encounter) that I can be an ESFP and smart?
    Acadia thanked this post.



  2. #2

    @Penquinn
    the stereotypes are annoying af. and tbh, for me, the stereotypes make it frustrating to objectively identify my personality type and you're right - to explain it to friends.

    Some context I'm either ISFP and ESFP, and neither of the stereotypes fit me well - I'm neither a fragile butterfly nor the life of the party. However, objectively, I have the high energy typical of high-Se, and I have a restless, outspoken, argumentative, adventurous nature more likely found in an ESFP than ISFP thanks to higher Te - not to mention my enneagram type which is fairly outgoing. (I just can't convince myself that my terrible Te ranks higher than my fairly bad Ni - which is why I still lean ISFP rather than ESFP)

    But to deal with the stereotypes, I make a "typing system distinction" around friends. I literally say, 'I test as an xSTP, but going by Jung, I'd more likely be an ISFP or ESFP." It's not wrong - I've taken the official mbti test twice for work or whatever, and I got ESTP and ISTP - they're just very shallow tests. If my friends want to know more about the cognitive functions when I mention Jung, they ask and we talk about it more and I offer to go through the system with them so they can learn their types.

    But other than just sort of dividing it all into two different systems, I just sort of prove it to them. I just got my master's degree. I use my concrete physical energy to pursue my goals in wildlife medicine - a complicated, fast-paced field that I really believe is populated with more Se-Ni users than any other type.

    If you want an example to share - when you're working with wildlife you almost have to have Se in your stack to not get injured. You must be aware of your environment, you don't really have time to learn from your mistakes. If you're dealing with an injured porcupine or vomiting turkey vulture or volatile raptor, you need to observe and act quickly. Lots of Se-Ni, and wouldn't surprise me if it were mostly ESFPs and ISFPs - and you need a lot of school to get career mobility in it. So even if it's not your cuppa tea, you could ask your friends 'what personality types would you guess field biologists are?' and then use this example. As a teenager I was seen as kind of a restless dreamer - no one thought I'd ever accomplish my goals - so finding success in a field that fit and allowed me freedom and a smidge of adrenaline was sort of a surprise for everyone.

    I imagine other examples of high Se-focused careers could include EMTs, surgeons, nurses, doctors of all sorts. It's good to have objectivity and quick thinking in medicine. But you don't need to be defined by what you do to be perceived as intelligent and you shouldn't have to pursue something like medicine to prove a point. There are lots of fields where intelligence requires concrete awareness of your surroundings and an understanding of deeper interconnections (Se-Ne) than theoretical connections .

    So yes, more than the stereotypical 'party animals' for sure.


    And I definitely know a few people, enneagram 4s, who claim to be intuitives because it almost certainly boosts their egos guess there's not too much you can do there except let them be and let them learn; if people don't want to change I guess they won't

  3. #3

    @Acadia , Thanks a lot for your reply!:D

    The type system distinction method sounds like a great idea! However, most of my friends know at least something about the cognitive functions, so I'll (try to) remember that for future acquaintances.
    But proving them wrong on stereotypes seems could definitely work, the examples you provided seem pretty sound to me. Also, reminding oneself of what Se and being a upper Se user actually means is also a good way to become more confident in one's own type, too!

    (And yeah, I guess they won't but it's still frustrating to read sometimes.. luckily we don't have to )
    Acadia thanked this post.

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  5. #4

    Not an ESFP but I'm also a sensor, and apparently one of the most boring, normal types. I see the stereotypes as a challenge for me to prove to people that I'm not a stereotype and to change their minds about what they (think they) know about ISFJs.

    ESFPs are cool as fuck.

    And if you need to try convince your friends of anything, fuck them. Anyone that believes they're in inherently smarter/better because a personality theory types them as an intuitive is the real retard.
    Surreal Snake and Glenda Gnome Starr thanked this post.

  6. #5

    Perhaps you could tell them to restudy their mbti?

    My two ESFPs friends I know are smarter than INFP me. Besides, who needs to be smart when you can be nice.

  7. #6

    @Acadia You sound like a high caliber, powerful ISTP
    You're argumentative, your logic is very precise and somehow very individualistic, characteristic of introverted thinker doms, whereas an extroverted thinker (especially IxFP), tends to brush logical details to the wayside once the basic concept is understood. If you were an extroverted thinker that didn't specialize in thinking, you'd probably just accept your fate as an ISTP, but not you... hell no. You'd organize a set of distinctions between various sources of theory information. You're more of a thinker than I am, just a different kind of thinker; your argumentative precision, and your general disposition reflect it. You're archetypal damn it!!!

    That being said, I understand that you've been studying Jung and have organized some logic that would result in your being a different type, based on his descriptions and word choice. I love his writing, although it's so dreamy and archaic that it's a logical playground for introverted thinkers, who tend to create robust logical structures as they study, to help them model what their reading and make it their own. But what do you think?

    Also I'm guessing you sometimes test as an ESTP because of the shallowness of the test, and because of your argumentative experiences, but I would guess ISTP with a highly developed Se, since it appears like thinking dominates your personality, and Se is under its control, more like an enjoyable tool.

    @Penquinn @JennyJukes
    Another strategy, besides disproving them, is to actually lean into the stereotype, and really own its strong points. My friend group is mostly intuitives, and there is that intuitives rule vibe, except our ISFJ friend is so much more organized and stable than us that we can't help but acknowledge certain superiority his type holds over ours. He already has his own car, he finishes his work on time and even does other people's work for pay, and that's because he doesn't struggle to follow his schedule, he's an SJ. When we want to hang out, information goes through him, he can count on being invited, because if our ISFJ is there then we can trust things will work out the way we want. He leans into the stereotype, and its strong points are beautiful, and easy for him to own. God I love that guy. Do you see, Penquinn? Don't get me started on how charismatic, and yet affectionate and relatable ESFPs can be, sterotypically

    Every type should practice acting like the best version of their type, because your type's strengths will likely be the most easiest strengths to master for you, allowing you to benefit yourself and others much more naturally (kind of like how I'm being a stereotypical ENFP right now: Happy and Acts like he knows you).
    Last edited by RingzJr; 12-28-2018 at 01:11 PM.

  8. #7

    Quote Originally Posted by RingzJr View Post
    @Acadia You sound like a high caliber, powerful ISTP
    hahah, that's cool, I always wanted to grow up to be Indiana Jones

    You're argumentative, your logic is very precise and somehow very individualistic, characteristic of introverted thinker doms, whereas an extroverted thinker (especially IxFP), tends to brush logical details to the wayside once the basic concept is understood.
    Interesting. irl, I'm told my logic is imbued with feeling - but that could be the individualism you're talking about, and it could be a distinction between high-Te users I know and myself. The people that call me illogical are mostly my ISTJ dad, and a former xSTJ professor.

    If you were an extroverted thinker that didn't specialize in thinking, you'd probably just accept your fate as an ISTP, but not you... hell no. You'd organize a set of distinctions between various sources of theory information. You're more of a thinker than I am, just a different kind of thinker; your argumentative precision, and your general disposition reflect it. You're archetypal damn it!!!
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Believe me, I'm okay with being classified as a thinker. I guess it's possible that my education was so xSTJ, xNxJ and even xNxP oriented that I've completely missed something, because all I could really recognize was that I was somehow different than my peers (though, I guess my authenticity bend could be a strong 4-fix in the mix)

    That being said, I understand that you've been studying Jung and have organized some logic that would result in your being a different type, based on his descriptions and word choice. I love his writing, although it's so dreamy and archaic that it's a logical playground for introverted thinkers, who tend to create robust logical structures as they study, to help them model what their reading and make it their own. But what do you think?
    hahah I'm open to it. I went with istp for a couple of years before switching to Fi. I've rarely chatted with someone who says, "You genuinely look like x-type' - aside from someone telling me they could 'feel the Fi bleeding off' one of my posts.

    Fi came from a couple places. I do navigate the world based on what feels right or wrong to me - like my career - am concerned with authenticity, and am known to make choices based on how I feel rather than logic. I cared a hell of a lot about one area, felt like nobody was doing anything about it, and decided to jump in and take a stab at it.

    I can admit one of my biggest struggles with self-typing was differentiating high-Fi and low-Fe.
    The one stereotypical Fi thing I can think of is that I've been a vegetarian for almost 10 years. At first I just didn't like meat; but now in my field and my experiences, as I often work with animals that die, I just don't want to be part of it when I don't have to be. I'm not preachy about it. I don't care what other people do when it comes to that stuff. But it's important to me, personally.

    As for high-Ti -- I am analytical, and I rationalize situations. I do deconstruct problems and take them apart and put them back together to figure out how they work. And I guess that's what happens when something bothers me, and in a way I guess that's how I got into wildlife medicine - if you deconstruct the problem you can figure out how it works and only then can you do something about it - but you have to take it apart first. I suppose that's where I lean more Ti than Fi in definition. In a way I do have to model the information I take in and make it my own - I can't learn from just looking at a slide or reading a textbook, I have to do it with my hands in some way, even if that's drawing a picture.

    Also I'm guessing you sometimes test as an ESTP because of the shallowness of the test, and because of your argumentative experiences, but I would guess ISTP with a highly developed Se, since it appears like thinking dominates your personality, and Se is under its control, more like an enjoyable tool.
    I'd buy that. I'm open to all of it tbh, I don't trouble myself too much about it. Though yeah, I typically lean Ji-first.

  9. #8

    As an extroverted thinker (a tertiary one at that), I desperately want to hone in on the loose ends, and kind of conclude something about them for now, until I get the chance to dissect those loose end topics again. So these four paragraphs each reference that individualistic, almost indignant vibe that others sense from you and that you've noticed in yourself:

    Quote Originally Posted by Acadia View Post
    Interesting. irl, I'm told my logic is imbued with feeling - but that could be the individualism you're talking about, and it could be a distinction between high-Te users I know and myself. The people that call me illogical are mostly my ISTJ dad, and a former xSTJ professor.

    hahah I'm open to it. I went with istp for a couple of years before switching to Fi. I've rarely chatted with someone who says, "You genuinely look like x-type' - aside from someone telling me they could 'feel the Fi bleeding off' one of my posts.
    And then if you read those quotes carefully, you can hear an opposite tone of voice in it too. Rather than an indignant flavor, it sounds more like an at-ease flavor, but it still humming with a flavor nonetheless. I have trouble expressing positive feelings through text, like I can say positive logic but to also capture the voice is a talent or an instinct.

    I've been thinking about this, and I think I've almost got it figured out to a point that would satisfy me. That behavior that some people describe as "bleeding with Fi", I actually often see in ESTP ENTP INTP and ISTP. In my personal experience, I've seen that most extensively in ExTP males and IxTP females. This suggests it's characteristic of low Fe and high Ti, because it's usually the arguments that are "bleeding with Fi", and it's funny because the very next post from the same person can have a completely different energy, as if the poster wears their emotions on their sleeve. Fe users are known to wear their emotions very naturally, and low Fe do it less consciously, and are usually more consciously focused on their message's organization rather than on the message their tone of voice is conveying (although they would likely agree with the messages their tone of voice conveys, given the thought).

    What I find really fascinating though is this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Acadia View Post
    I do navigate the world based on what feels right or wrong to me - like my career - am concerned with authenticity, and am known to make choices based on how I feel rather than logic. I cared a hell of a lot about one area, felt like nobody was doing anything about it, and decided to jump in and take a stab at it.

    I can admit one of my biggest struggles with self-typing was differentiating high-Fi and low-Fe.
    The one stereotypical Fi thing I can think of is that I've been a vegetarian for almost 10 years. At first I just didn't like meat; but now in my field and my experiences, as I often work with animals that die, I just don't want to be part of it when I don't have to be.
    What is this conviction? This moral conviction to be authentic and to follow what one thinks is right. ENTP ESTP INTP ISTP. What is that? It's heroic. My best friend is ENTP, and when he feels indignant about something he says it, and says it with such conviction that it's incredibly persuasive. What is that? Sometimes we want to call it Fi, but that doesn't make any sense. Sometimes we want to say it's "based on feeling and not logic" but is it really the lack of reason? No, conversely I think it's driven by reason. That conviction to act on what one thinks is right. But before we tackle that, an even deeper question: Why do you, an ISTP, feel so strongly about anything to begin with?

    When you've been thinking about animals so closely for so long, and realize that it isn't right for you, personally, to contribute to the systematic killing of animals, why do you feel that you must act on your reasoning? Why don't you just do what everyone else does? You have low Fe, so why do you have the most conviction?

    The vegetarian example proves that your conviction isn't always explosive (although it can be in arguments), but is sometimes a lasting conviction over the course of decades, conviction that picks up momentum and stability as you think more and more about it. I would argue that both the explosive and non-explosive conviction are the result of a system driven by Ti. Feelings listen to reason. For example, I took a philosophy class once that had me repetitively think about an argument; I had to argue for the argument and I had to argue against the argument, I had to write and memorize its points, objections, and rebuttals. After such extensive thinking, I found myself acting in accordance with its reasoning for sometime (and actually became vegan for a few months). Our feelings listen to reason. So it's natural to conclude that a person who reasons and investigates thoroughly, in search of clarity, will inevitably become convicted.

    So what do they mean by Fi is related to conviction, @Acadia ? And by "Fi involves making decisions based on moral values"? A Ti dom is more likely to scrutinize over moral reasoning, and ONLY through scrutiny does one's soul become convicted. It's not some magical Fi cognitive function, it's the fact that your feelings listen to your reasoning, and the tendency to reason thoroughly dominates your personality. Every conviction that you consider to be Fi, I would argue is actually the result of you thinking something to be right or wrong, and thinking it a lot. Like building up a stock of energy and clarity. It's the lack of clarity, the griminess of half-baked thoughts, double-think, that dilutes conviction.

    Now, what is meant by Fi conviction? Do you still think you're an introverted feeler or an extroverted feeler? What is an introverted feeler vs an extroverted feeler?
    Acadia thanked this post.

  10. #9

    @RingzJr
    It seems like you've put a lot of thought into this and I appreciate that. At the moment, I just don't have the mental energy to try to process your argument and properly formulate my own right now. I've got a lot going on.

    But I don't disagree. I've always been open to high-Ti, and your point of discerning right and wrong through scrutiny suits me and makes sense.

    As far as emotion goes - I have trouble expressing my emotions - partly why I turn to music and art etc. My words describing them never sound right, and talking to people tends to make me feel worse if I haven't processed a situation properly. People push me to talk and I retreat, or kind of lash out depending on the situation. I don't think I see myself as wearing them comfortably. Whatever the case, I know who I am, even if I don't articulate that well.

    Certain concepts like the idea of 'empaths', or people who claim to feel others' feelings - irritate me. I'll get progressively more angry as someone tries to push that subject. I don't think anyone is capable of feeling what another person is feeling - each emotion is unique to each person, even if situations are not unique. All we can share are experiences, and I don't think you need words for that. Just presence. I also get irritated when people try to investigate my emotional life, or tell me what to do or how to handle a situation. So I wouldn't say I'm a particularly emotionally healthy person - I have an easier time poking fun at my own emotions or retreating and taking them seriously on my own than seriously discussing them with others. So I'm going to shy away from your questions about differentiating Fi and Fe for now. (unless your questions were rhetorical in which case, whatever lol)

    If I do use Ti-Fe, that's cool, but I need to read and confirm what you say. As interesting as your comments are, you are just a person I've never met, who saw a couple of posts, and whose Ne I'm guessing picked up on something.

    Though I'll offer this - you exist on the Fi-Te axis; how do you define Fi? How do you see it in yourself?
    RingzJr thanked this post.

  11. #10

    @Acadia
    I never mean to tell you what to do, how to do it, or what you feel, if it ever sounds that way. I just like suggesting things, because of Ne and all that.

    They say ISTP is really good at analyzing what's in front of them (Ti Se), and prefers to do that over getting trapped in theoretical labyrinths, in search of answers which can't be easily validated or in some way tested by the physical world. So maybe one way to go about analyzing Fe and Fi is by starting with people whose types we take for granted, and then list differences between them, in search of trends. Any patterns derived could be validated through the same process but with a different set of individuals. On this site, we have thousands of specimens to analyze and compare, even ourselves, and in the process we may bond with other humans and satiate our desire for positive human interaction.

    For example you asked me how I see Fi in myself, so I could compare somethings about me to the information you told me about yourself, and look for systematic behavioral differences. I might start with some data like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Acadia View Post
    As far as emotion goes - I have trouble expressing my emotions - partly why I turn to music and art etc. My words describing them never sound right, and talking to people tends to make me feel worse if I haven't processed a situation properly.
    I suppose this would be our first difference, since I enjoy describing my own emotions. But more specifically, I enjoy conveying an understanding of what I'm feeling to someone, a process that doesn't always require words. For example, if someone says something that crosses my morals, I may convey my disturbance by making a shocked face at the person, or at those around me, especially when words would have been expected .

    Quote Originally Posted by Acadia View Post
    People push me to talk and I retreat, or kind of lash out depending on the situation.
    I bet many people have felt pressured by others to talk, and I bet we all respond to that pressure in different ways. For me, when it's especially annoying, I do something like lashing out, but it doesn't always look that way. What I do is I drop my usual polite indirect way of speaking, and just kinda say whatever it is that's on my mind. If I haven't figured it out yet, but I'm fairly certain I'd find something wrong given enough time to think, then I love restating the facts, and then following up by posing the question "why does that sound weird to me?" In other words, when people push me to talk, it creates the chance to drop politeness and express how I feel, an act that gives me energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acadia View Post
    I don't think I see myself as wearing them comfortably. Whatever the case, I know who I am, even if I don't articulate that well.
    Yeah, I guess based on this, one might conclude that I wear my feelings more comfortably than you do. But what I meant, is that your unrefined feelings are easier to spot. You don't necessarily like to consciously deal out your feelings, whereas with me, every second of the day I'm consciously dealing out my feelings in some manner or another; it's my engine, my language, it relieves my anxiety and adds to my daily reservoir of happiness . Hell I'm doing it now. Based on these examples, I would propose that high Fi users tend to consciously deal out their feelings, like a dealer in poker, whereas low Fe users tend to wear their feelings with less intuitive control, like a polar bear wears its fur without intuitive control.

    So yeah, I think it'd take a while to develop a scientific method about this, and we have to maintain our actually lives too, which are the priority. Which is why I added you as a friend. It'll be better to kind of roam around personality cafe casually, discovering and analyzing interesting situations within various lives, adding to our database of examples like biologists. For me it's easier to be productive in social situations when I bring a friend along, and so I may mention you in threads that I think you might find fascinating, or that you might want to contribute to. But what do you think?
    Acadia thanked this post.


     
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