[InsideOutside]

Ah, I don't understand how Fi works or is used in ESFPs. All the ones I know show no value, show no morals, show now identity. They are people pleasers and are willing to morph themselves into whatever that other person wants from them or needs. I have Fi, and I CANNOT change myself for someone else, no way. I cannot 'abandon' me. I have an ESFP friend who went through stages of "finding themselves" -- her reasoning for the mistakes she's made in the past. I've never had these issues of "finding me" or "finding myself". I knew myself! Isn't that what Fi is?

I may know unhealthy ESFPs, but all of the ones i know, They are Se Se Se Ni. Ni comes when they don't get their way or someone "hates" them. I dont see any functions in them. Can someone please tell me how you use your Fi. What do you value? What is your moral code?

I talk to my friend about MBTI all the time, she is still learning it, but she can't see Fi in herself, neither can I, so I am wondering if maybe we define it differently, since I am ENFP. I honestly see more Extraverted Feeling in her...wanting to please others, door slamming, manipulation when stressed, easily guilted....

[gladiator]

I recently diagnosed my friend as ESFP and he has always exhibited some really annoying traits...

'show no value, show no morals, show now identity. They are people pleasers and are willing to morph themselves into whatever that other person wants from them or needs.' This just sums them up perfectly (but would add the word 'delusional'). Was recently on holiday with my ESFP friend and almost fell out with the guy over some of his more annoying antics. This guy was well liked by almost everybody, he just really had a way of getting people to like him - and it was driving me nuts because I could see how fake it all was. When we went hiking he suddenly pretended to be some big tough guy ( he's actually a weedy little druggie ) - When with business people he just becomes this corporate business guy ( he can't count to 10 and is so naive he bought a dudd stolen car from an albanian in a convict suite). Then the most annoying one is the ' I'm an eccentric genius' act when around 'smart' people.

Guess I wouldn't mind any of this stuff too much as it's quite amusing but what irritated me was the level of arrogance... And the irritating comments he would occasionally send my way. but I could always see that deep down this guy was actually quite vulnerable. I sort of figured that he had a kind of a 'short man complex' and felt he had to act out. The guy screwed up his finances massively and I had to lend him loads of cash on the trip and at that point i lost my cool a bit and called him a 'retard' among other things. I wasn't really that scathing and wasn't actually that rude to him and i gave him money e.t.c. but I could see that for the next few days that comment was just festering in him and he became all passive aggressive - I don't know if this is Fi - but also my friend whilst beind quite likeable is also one of the most naive people I know - he says he 'takes things at face value' and that is exactly what he does - but is too nice to himself to ever realise his mistakes. Was occasionally a lot of fun to be around though - guess we can't all be perfect!

[sparkles]

Ah, I don't understand how Fi works or is used in ESFPs. All the ones I know show no value, show no morals, show now identity. They are people pleasers and are willing to morph themselves into whatever that other person wants from them or needs. I have Fi, and I CANNOT change myself for someone else, no way. I cannot 'abandon' me. I have an ESFP friend who went through stages of "finding themselves" -- her reasoning for the mistakes she's made in the past. I've never had these issues of "finding me" or "finding myself". I knew myself! Isn't that what Fi is?

I may know unhealthy ESFPs, but all of the ones i know, They are Se Se Se Ni. Ni comes when they don't get their way or someone "hates" them. I dont see any functions in them. Can someone please tell me how you use your Fi. What do you value? What is your moral code?

I talk to my friend about MBTI all the time, she is still learning it, but she can't see Fi in herself, neither can I, so I am wondering if maybe we define it differently, since I am ENFP. I honestly see more Extraverted Feeling in her...wanting to please others, door slamming, manipulation when stressed, easily guilted....

Why are you looking at Fi as the source for values and morals? Some people use Te or Ti for values and morals, no?

[sparkles]

Anyway, I value harmony, win/win [<--morals goes here] and health (interpersonal, intrapersonal, physical, emotional, spiritual). I also value flexibility. [<-- potential to seem nebulous or uncentered in some instances would probably go here]

That means that sometimes, I build rapport with other people. This can look like changing myself, but to me it is more like enhancing the expression of a side of me that is always there. Rapport is all about being like the other person. [ETA: And I do not mean ACTING like you are like them; I mean conveying that you are, authentically, like the person as s/he expresses him/herself.]

If I am expressing more of my x side than my y side, it doesn't mean I'm pretending or being fake (or it doesn't mean that to me anyway). It simply means I enjoy rapport-filled relationships. I'm multi-faceted. Then again, I am NOT the sort of person who would sacrifice my sense of myself for other people either. If they don't like who I choose to be, they can stuff it, since I can find plenty of people who do value and appreciate me for the simple+complex person I am.

So, while I may expose one or another aspect of my personality, I don't do it to the point of sacrificing myself, or to the point of dishonoring my personal values.

ISTJ also shows one or another aspect of themselves depending on the company. I'd wonder if this weren't a fairly human thing. Most people I know adjust themselves, in small or large ways, depending on the environment.

Do you speak, think, act, dress the same whether around a best friend, an SO, a parent, a grandparent, or a boss? Can you be 100% sure of this, or is there a chance you may just think you act exactly the same no matter the environment, because it would fit your self-concept to do so?

Other times, due to valuing health in relationships (with myself and with others), I am assertive. I had a bunch of people lying to me at work today, telling stories, being opportunistic. It gets on my nerves - because it does not align with my value of win/win in relationships to behave that way. I had absolutely no problem whatsoever calling them on it, as directly as I could get away with.

I told a lot of people "no" today as well. Which is usually poison to people-pleasers. Again, no problem whatsoever, due to the various ways those situations misaligned with my personal values. Will I help you scam the federal government? NO, I will not.

Sometimes, I go along to get along. That's when I'm valuing harmony (enneagram 9 here), or when it really doesn't matter to me enough to break rapport. Other times, I'm totally feisty and assertive, when I'm expressing my value for win/win or interpersonal health.

I think the combination of SP can lead to some flightiness, especially if you are extroverted as well. Being flighty instead of more grounded can either LOOK like you are too airy and scattered, or can actually mean you are.

I'm sure your ESFP friend didn't have the best answers for you, because this is a highly N topic, not an S one. It is theory without immediate practical application value, and ESFP probably has to use more psychic energy to explore the inner self.

Just because ESFP must use more psychic energy to do this, it does not mean ESFP can't. It might mean ESFP prefers other things, though.

A very very Extroverted Sensor might have more trouble figuring out what they value in their core, because their focus goes outward, and because it goes to the concrete and practical.

I also think people pleasing can be found in any type, not just one. I think ISTJ might have a higher risk of people-pleasing actually. A sense of sacrificing the self for the community as a default, all the time. But I think both ISTJ and ESFP may or may not be people-pleasers. It really depends on how healthy the type is, I think.

And whether they VALUE a sense of individuality (and/or service-to-self and/or service-to-others). Not everyone does, and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. (Does it?) Some folks wanna be dem sheeples, yo.

[InsideOutside]

This makes some sense, I need to mull it over. I will be back.

[snail]

The ESFPs I have been friends with have had very strong values, but have used them primarily in the service of social harmony. The strong drive to make other people feel comfortable and happy was the thing that defined them at the core. They relied on Se to watch for subtle visible cues in order to know how people were feeling. If someone's brow furrowed the tiniest bit, the ESFP would notice, and in accordance with his values, would crack a joke to ease any tension. I almost dated one because he was quite skilled at creating a euphoric bubble all around him that shielded everyone close to him from negative feelings. If I came to him needing to be comforted, he always knew just what to say to fix it, and was the best at snuggling of anyone with whom I have ever been physically intimate. When we discussed politics, he had clearly defined opinions about everything, which were generally fair and compassionate, because his whole identity revolved around other people's happiness. He was also a Christian. He struggled with issues of temperance and will-power, but had enough of a conscience to feel guilty when he failed to behave in a manner consistent with his values.

[sparkles]

This makes some sense, I need to mull it over. I will be back.

Thank you for the generous listening.

Saw your pre-edit, and I would say first, that I'm not as well-versed in this type of function breakdown. I do think there is a difference between having values/morals, and using them as your primary means of making decisions.

Sometimes, I decide my action based on the good of the group. Sometimes, a group member is not bothering to consider the well-being of the group, and I suppose that's one case where my decision will still be based on values, but not the same values of the others around me.

Sometimes my enneagram takes over (or maybe the Fi takes over in a different way, like I said not used to talking in those terms) and it does become all about me regaining a sense of physical/personal comfort. That might express as me getting cooperative, or it might express as snark and brashness.

[sparkles]

I almost dated one because he was quite skilled at creating a euphoric bubble all around him that shielded everyone close to him from negative feelings.

Must be a side effect of a stronger Extroversion, then. My friend's ESFP hubby is this way also. I'm not so much like this, at least not in an entertainery way. More just happy-go-lucky with genuineness.

If I came to him needing to be comforted, he always knew just what to say to fix it, and was the best at snuggling of anyone with whom I have ever been physically intimate.

Now this, yes. I love to comfort and be comforted, and I'm flexible in exactly how I give/receive it.

[Neon Knight]

Ah, I don't understand how Fi works or is used in ESFPs. All the ones I know show no value, show no morals, show now identity. They are people pleasers and are willing to morph themselves into whatever that other person wants from them or needs. I have Fi, and I CANNOT change myself for someone else, no way. I cannot 'abandon' me. I have an ESFP friend who went through stages of "finding themselves" -- her reasoning for the mistakes she's made in the past. I've never had these issues of "finding me" or "finding myself". I knew myself! Isn't that what Fi is?

I may know unhealthy ESFPs, but all of the ones i know, They are Se Se Se Ni. Ni comes when they don't get their way or someone "hates" them. I dont see any functions in them. Can someone please tell me how you use your Fi. What do you value? What is your moral code?

I talk to my friend about MBTI all the time, she is still learning it, but she can't see Fi in herself, neither can I, so I am wondering if maybe we define it differently, since I am ENFP. I honestly see more Extraverted Feeling in her...wanting to please others, door slamming, manipulation when stressed, easily guilted....

Although I have no identity I have very strong morals and values so I'm told. What's wrong with people pleasing anyway other than it being horribly draining? We're doing it for YOU not US. We don't abandon ourself, we see the needs of the moment and shape ourselves accordingly, it in no way affects who I am just what I am like with said person. No values are compromised, that's how my Fi works. Eventually when we mature we are balancing ourselves like everyone else so it makes it easier. It in no way makes us fake. Finding yourself cannot be Fi because mine is horribly strong, more-so than my Se a bit and I have no sense of identity whatsoever, I have had these identity crises and they're quite unpleasant. So now I just do what I want and the world can stuff it if they don't like it (Fi). Maybe your ESFPs are immature, unhealthy, both or they are actually other personalities that are being lumped in with us because every time I see someone shitting on us it's usually just because everyone who comes across a person with no morals they assume they are ESFP which his ridiculous since we DO have Fi. You can be raised improperly and have your own Fi which are just your own personal values, nothing to do with morality since Fi is values not just about morality. If say someone was to value stealing because the ends justifies the means, doesn't mean there isn't Fi. I don't know about the rest of what you said though. If you can only see certain functions, that's probably imbalance, immaturity or your knowledge of functions is off (not saying mine aren't of course). Oh and to add, we please people because we are driven to. At least I know I am, it is my duty. That would also be Fi.

I recently diagnosed my friend as ESFP and he has always exhibited some really annoying traits...

So now ESFP is a diagnosis like some disease?

'show no value, show no morals, show now identity. They are people pleasers and are willing to morph themselves into whatever that other person wants from them or needs.'[/I] This just sums them up perfectly (but would add the word 'delusional'). Was recently on holiday with my ESFP friend and almost fell out with the guy over some of his more annoying antics. This guy was well liked by almost everybody, he just really had a way of getting people to like him - and it was driving me nuts because I could see how fake it all was. When we went hiking he suddenly pretended to be some big tough guy ( he's actually a weedy little druggie ) - When with business people he just becomes this corporate business guy ( he can't count to 10 and is so naive he bought a dudd stolen car from an albanian in a convict suite). Then the most annoying one is the ' I'm an eccentric genius' act when around 'smart' people.

You say that like it's a bad thing. Just because you chose not to do the same things doesn't mean there isn't any worth to what he does. If many people liked him and he just drove you nuts, I'm thinking jealousy on your part, if you don't mind my saying so. Define being 'fake' first than we can go from there. Pleasing people in a healthy way doesn't not equal fake. I know when I am being fake and when I am not.

Guess I wouldn't mind any of this stuff too much as it's quite amusing but what irritated me was the level of arrogance... And the irritating comments he would occasionally send my way. but I could always see that deep down this guy was actually quite vulnerable. I sort of figured that he had a kind of a 'short man complex' and felt he had to act out. The guy screwed up his finances massively and I had to lend him loads of cash on the trip and at that point i lost my cool a bit and called him a 'retard' among other things. I wasn't really that scathing and wasn't actually that rude to him and i gave him money e.t.c. but I could see that for the next few days that comment was just festering in him and he became all passive aggressive - I don't know if this is Fi - but also my friend whilst beind quite likeable is also one of the most naive people I know - he says he 'takes things at face value' and that is exactly what he does - but is too nice to himself to ever realise his mistakes. Was occasionally a lot of fun to be around though - guess we can't all be perfect!

Arrogance is not a healthy trait. It's not an ESFP trait, it's a human trait. Everyone has feelings and can be passive-aggressive. Fi has nothing to do with naivete, if it did, I wouldn't have had half the problems I have since my Fi is ridiculously high. We don't get Ni until our 50s so you better get used to him 'seeing things at face value' because that is what we usually DO. If I could be any other way, I would be but it doesn't work that way. He won't realize this stuff without someone saying so or doing some introspection. I had to recently deal with what I consider an unhealthy xSFP and it was quite unpleasant knowing I could not get to him, but I know it's pointless. Sometimes you just have to cut people away if they're causing you grief but it doesn't sound like you despise him enough to do so. You're right on the last note, we can't all be perfect :)

Thanks @snail :) That's pretty much how I operate, ie me in a nutshell, minus Christian, replace with Buddhist. :)

omg @sparkles is that a wall of text?

[sparkles]

@SuPEReViL It is! Crown me the queen of hypocrisy.

Haha, actually, I know a few ENFPs online, and from what I've observed they are cool with longer posts. I was writing for my audience in that case, in part anyway.

And partly just, yeah, a big vat of hypocrisy.