ESTJs and Opposing Ideals

ESTJs and Opposing Ideals

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  • 3 Post By kept81213

This is a discussion on ESTJs and Opposing Ideals within the ESTJ Forum - The Guardians forums, part of the SJ's Temperament Forum- The Overseers category; Want to sleep, but decided to have this issue asked before sinking under this tiny mind of mine. Please notify ...

  1. #1
    INFJ - The Protectors

    ESTJs and Opposing Ideals

    Want to sleep, but decided to have this issue asked before sinking under this tiny mind of mine. Please notify me of any grammatical mistakes.

    I have this two ESTJs in my life (suspected), and let's just say that their values and mine aren't exactly compatible. One is my father, and another is one of my close friend. They are smart, assertive, caring, and know what they're talking about -- but a lot of times they breached people's defense line one times too many. Their values are too..different, compared to mine. (and for details or comparison, theirs are more in synch with the masses while mine aren't that much, but I digress.)

    Now the problem : we tend to clash over idealisms, way of living, and values.

    Sometimes it's important issue (just had a..debate of some sort with my father several hours ago concerning driving and safety and assertiveness, or a long-lasting debate over choice of college and why, or a debate-slash-interrogation about my friend's relationship), but at times it's small, yet deeply personal issues; issues as small as fashion style, standing position, and taste of music. It's as if, anything beside their own ideals, beliefs, and values, which have been proven right by their own experiences, are the most correct and must be followed by everyone else. It doesn't ring well with an INFJ's belief of personal growth >_>;;

    Personally,what irritates me most is that, the way they're talking, they claimed it's "simply telling MY perspective", but went angry or pissed off if the respective person doesn't follow what they said, even if they have necessary arguments orthe ESTJ's own arguments are questioned. Or even if the other person (in this case, myself) simply told their own perspective and ideas (that aren't hitting with their own). Or even if that other person had said that their actions hurt them and are being seen as offending and breaching within their personal values.

    ESTJs care about people they loved; that is widely known. Everyone has a chance to express their opinion, that's also understandable. And I won't make this topic if I don't care at least a little about them, but sometimes don't they realize that people have individuality? </whine>

    </tl;dr>

    My question is; anyone know how to nicely told ESTJs that "Let's just agree to disagree and follow on nicely with our lives, shall we?" ? Have you ever been on similar conflict, in a direct opposition against an ESTJ's ideal and/or values (or to ESTJs, to others)? How does that end?

    (On a side note, I noticed that both of them, when pressed, reveal their basic motive / feelings; while me myself tend to reveal it first and went freezing and all cold, hard logic when pressed; exactly the opposite. Is this an ESTJ thing?)



  2. #2
    ESTJ - The Guardians

    Ya I definitely hear you on this. It's not at all just you my sister (INFP) and my mother (ENFP) tell me about this alllll the time.

    Let me explain the last thing you asked first. At least from my view, the fact of the matter is that we really dont like to deal with feelings. Feelings make me uncomfortable. Yes everyone has them, including me, and the idea of feelings is really not what bothers me. Someone who bursts into tears is going to make me a little uncomfortable. I feel incredibly guilty about this since i dont want anyone i love to be sad, but honestly, the crying is a little to much and i really have to make myself get in there and ask them what they're feeling. It could just be me, but all my NT friends say they feel the same way. So basically other people's feelings exposed is uncomfortable, but what is worse is having my feelings exposed. I really hate that, mostly because it feels extremely out of control, and vulnerable and kind of weak. Hence why i tend to cry only when i am definitely alone. I dont really like people asking me what my feelings are, nor do i like telling them, or really expressing them physically or in words. Of course like anything else this has its exceptions. Therefore, if we feel strongly that someone we love is doing something that may hurt them we simply state it in a non-feeling way such as "well if you end up in a car accident because you were talking on the phone then its your fault". I know it would probably be easier to say "oh please dont talk on the phone while driving because if you get in an accident I will be very upset, and i dont want you to get hurt", but that involves telling the person that we care for them a ton and that them hurting themselves may have a huge impact on us. Dont get me wrong, it totally would, we just dont want to tell anyone that. The more the person claims that they will do that activity no matter what, the more we throw in things like "well, then you're an idiot". My mom and sister HATE this. Especially my sister because she is younger and does not at all like to be told what to do. I tend to do this less with my mom because she is above me in terms of status and so i dont feel that its my right to tell her what to do. My suggestion would be to be upfront about what you think they're motive is. Say "I know that you're really worried that I might get in a car accident, but you taught me how to drive really well, and i promise i wont use my phone if that makes you uncomfortable, but this is my life and so I need to learn how to make mistakes on my own". It is really hard for us to accept, but we react better if we have nothing to fight against. I've noticed, especially with F's that the argument escalates because emotions go up and the more we feel emotional the more angry we get. If you try and remain calm and let us know you acknowledge our advice and that it was a good idea that might help. Also coming up with an alternative might be good to, or someway to let us know that you will take care of yourself.

    About being right all the time and the arguing "to the death". I am sorry about that. For some reason we get really upset about losing our pride. Its why i dont raise my hand in class unless i know that i am absolutely right. Being wrong is not usually considered because that would mean we lose a little of our pride. But in general, its important for us to learn that we are not always right. In an argument, you might want to throw in "lets just agree to disagree then" and walk out of the room. That shuts off the conversation. When we say something in general is right, just assume that it is a well known theory that some people think is right. We aren't necessarily even certain of what we are saying completely, but most of the time it comes off that way. If you stop and say, that's not what i was saying and make it clear what you are saying you might get a better response.

    The fact of the matter is, ESTJ's need to know learn that these behaviors need to be altered. But that depends upon the person learning that they're in the wrong. When my mom or sister tells me that I am being abusive or a bully towards them it makes me really upset. I dont want to come off that way. And i appreciate it when they let me know how i can change. You might want to slowly get your family and friends to read the book Please Understand Me II. Start by saying oh can i test you to see what you are? And then read them the good qualities and ask them if they're true. They might get super interested and want to read about it themselves. Then you can tell them what you are.

    One of my best friends is an INFJ. She and i really dont argue very much because she's pretty shy and doesnt always state her opinion. My biggest issue with her is that if she and i do have an argument she doesnt tell me she's upset. She pretends like nothing happened, or she doesnt talk to me and just writes me emails instead, but usually not even explaining why she's upset. I love her a lot, but being passive aggressive and avoiding conflict does not help us overcome our problems. I hope this helps! I know we are a pain in the ass, but i'm glad you know how much we care!

  3. #3
    INFJ - The Protectors

    Thanks for the reply :)

    Let me explain the last thing you asked first. At least from my view, the fact of the matter is that we really dont like to deal with feelings. Feelings make me uncomfortable. Yes everyone has them, including me, and the idea of feelings is really not what bothers me. -snip-

    Dont get me wrong, it totally would, we just dont want to tell anyone that. The more the person claims that they will do that activity no matter what, the more we throw in things like "well, then you're an idiot".

    I've noticed, especially with F's that the argument escalates because emotions go up and the more we feel emotional the more angry we get.
    ugh. I feel kinda bad. From what I'd seen, the more I press them, the more they're likely to reveal their basic motives, but there would be emotions involved; which makes things biased and unbalanced. Which is pretty ironic for me because It's from them that I'm learning how to deal with them; don't scatter your feelings everywhere, don't let emotions blunder you because that won't get you anywhere. Get your feelings across, nice and clean, and deal with their reactions. Understandably we NFs are perhaps a little more in synch with expressing our feelings compared to other people, thus, with good guidance, are somewhat capable to control its amount.

    My suggestion would be to be upfront about what you think they're motive is.

    It is really hard for us to accept, but we react better if we have nothing to fight against.

    If you try and remain calm and let us know you acknowledge our advice and that it was a good idea that might help. Also coming up with an alternative might be good to, or someway to let us know that you will take care of yourself.
    I have this itching feelings that ESTJs likes / values proofs the most, compared to other things. My dad personally likes to use news and other people's recommendation >_>;

    When we say something in general is right, just assume that it is a well known theory that some people think is right.
    Ah. My problem with that is, something that's generally right doesn't mean I have to, want to, and in the process to follow it. But again, they seem to think we're outrageous, stupid, weird, or all of them, for following it. D:
    You might want to slowly get your family and friends to read the book Please Understand Me II.
    Can't; my father doesn't really like those. My friend..well, I dunno; she's a major in psychology so she probably should've taken those...or not.I have no idea.

    I love her a lot, but being passive aggressive and avoiding conflict does not help us overcome our problems. I hope this helps! I know we are a pain in the ass, but i'm glad you know how much we care!
    Thanks! I've tried this passive aggressiveness weapon and it doesn't end really lightly. In fact, a major family event is triggered by passive aggressiveness and let's just say we're still scavenging its ruins right now. I personally aspire to be able to get my point across him cleanly and without major drama, so at least both sides of the party KNOW what each other wants.

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  5. #4
    INFP - The Idealists

    Oh, its so relieving to see the other side's point of view! My mother is an ESTJ, and recently she has really been pushy and aggressive for no reason; she would tell me in a really formal and mildly aggressive tone (or maybe its a result of my over-sensitive INFP mechanism) to do this or not do this, and for three days in a row we were having, well, "a debate" about her being so aggressive and pushy, and when I tell her that she hurt me she would really get angry because I was sad, which hurts me more, which I later tell her about, leading to an endless cycle...

    At least I know now that emotions are a big no-no to ESTJs, which was a really big "wow" to me.

    By the way Trifoilum, I don't think you have grammatical mistakes in your post.

  6. #5
    ESTJ - The Guardians

    I agree mostly with kept. The ESTJ tendency is to be blunt and confrontational, but I definitely think ESTJs can learn to be less so (though, as kept pointed out, it is definitely an acquired skill).

    ESTJs will generally appreciate complete and open honesty, but an insecure ESTJ will become defensive and perhaps hostile when the subject of commentary is themselves. Even a healthy ESTJ is going to want to know why, though, so I would not raise an issue with an ESTJ until I've carefully thought about the issue myself and am ready to offer a cogent well-reasoned argument, which is the gold standard of TJ discourse. "It just is" or "I just feel that way" will never be good enough, at the bare minimum you will need concrete examples (i.e. appealing to the S function) for ESTJ to assess the veracity of your claims.

    To answer your last question, I read somewhere that under stress all types will tend to revert towards their inferior functions. This seems to be true in the example you cited. I also observed this once when I went through a bad break-up with an INFP--pretty much role reversal. It was strange.
    Last edited by jimbo1220; 02-19-2010 at 03:42 PM. Reason: Unnecessary details

  7. #6
    ESTJ - The Guardians

    On the subject of emotions, I wouldn't say they make me uncomfortable nor that I have an especially hard time expressing them to others. I would agree that I do not tend to have strong emotions often and that when people I care about are upset it does upset me greatly.

    I tend to distrust my emotions because in my experience they cloud judgement, which I regard as more valuable. As an action-based thinker and communicator, I find emotions are not usually helpful to me in reaching goals or generally getting things done, and so I rarely bring up emotions in conversation (though, like I said, if someone asked me about them I am usually ready to give a reply).

    Also, I really like NF's. 4 of my closest friends are NF's, and though we are completely different, I've learned a lot from them.

  8. #7
    ESTJ - The Guardians

    OH ya totally agreed! I have had too many times in my life where emotions just kind of took over, and let me tell you it was NOT pretty for anyone, me included.

    NF's are fabulous. I think they make up most of my best friends too, and most of my family.

  9. #8
    ESTJ - The Guardians

    Quote Originally Posted by Trifoilum View Post
    My question is; anyone know how to nicely told ESTJs that "Let's just agree to disagree and follow on nicely with our lives, shall we?" ? Have you ever been on similar conflict, in a direct opposition against an ESTJ's ideal and/or values (or to ESTJs, to others)? How does that end?
    My take on this:
    a) I HATE being told to "agree to disagree". It makes me so want to stab the person in the eye with a fork. Aargh.
    b) I love being right.

    So in this circumstance, hearing "that's a really interesting viewpoint; you might be right there/that's certainly something to consider" would be all I'd need, then I could move on. I seriously would stop arguing, because you'd respected me and made me feel good. I am quite a reasonable ESTJ, though; this might not work for others.


     

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