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An ISFP needs help from all the guy ESTJs out there

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12K views 26 replies 8 participants last post by  haushinka 
#1 ·
I am an ISFP and I am very good friends with an ESTJ. He enjoys my company, and all of our mutual friends feel that, based on how he treats me, he likes me as more than a friend. I am of the school of thought that if a guy wants you, he'll go after you. I know SJs are planners and aren't as impulsive as SPs. But I am confused, should I make the first move? Should I wait for him to make the first move? SJs are really traditional, so my first instinct is to wait. But at the same time, what if he thinks that I'm not interested... I don't want to miss out on this opportunity, because I think he's my soulmate. Arg! I just want to get inside of his head. Please help male ESTJs!
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#2 ·
Okay I know I am not a guy, and this is very very interesting because I was in a very similar situation with my friend who is an ISFP guy and I am an ESTJ girl. He used to confuse the hell out of me though because he was always very touchy feely with me and it wasn't like I ever said stop because there was always a part of me that did want to be with him that way. The problem is, I knew he was touchy feely and playful with everyone and so I never actually knew if he liked me like that. Therefore, to keep my heart safe, because at least for me feeling felt too vulnerable, and to make sure that we didn't lose our friendship I kept my head and just moved along like we were always friends.

My assumption is that he feels like you guys could be more than friends but he's afraid to lose you or get hurt. Telling someone you like them is very risky, and it involves feelings. At least for me, I have this attraction for ISFP's where I am almost a little addicted. It may just be me, but there's something about how calm and sweet you guys are, not to mention you sort of light up the world in you're own sort of quiet way. He does all sorts of things that confuse me and I am always very intrigued. I would try making some kind of move and see how he reacts, although he may not because he doesn't know that you're necessarily doing this for him, so make sure that he knows you're giving him special treatment that is different from what you give others. But be playful and see if he flirts back more. If he starts really caring about you he'll give you special treatment as well. There may be a point though, where you may just have to be direct, even if it's hard.

I could be completely wrong here. And I am a girl so maybe that makes a difference. I just know about that ISFP/ESTJ connection, and it seems to be really amazing. Not to mention the kinds of stuff you end up teaching each other. Good luck! I hope it works out!
 
#3 ·
Thanks for that, I will definitely try to be more playful and flirty. But I wear my feelings on my sleeve, and I do treat him differently from others already. We have this amazing relationship apart from our others friends, with whom we are close with as well like extended family. So what would it look like when an ESTJ is giving someone special attention?

I also totally get that special bond, for me an ESTJ is like my compass, always pointing north, grounding me. I depend on this guy so much for advice and I value his point of view more than anyone.

I am used to men being direct, and haven't really been in a situation where I have feelings for someone and am sure how they feel. The fact that he's an ESTJ just makes it that much harder because it's so different from how I think.

I am interested in the male perspective here, but thanks for your response as well.
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#4 ·
I tell people I like them by sharing feelings with them. We don't really do that very often, so I know I care about someone a lot if i can do that. Also, being touchy feely is a big thing too because I dont do it as often unless i like someone. I also will talk to them more, and call them more than other people. And I do things for them like give presents, or make food, or help with something. Also, be sort of spontaneous and surprise him, i usually hate when things are like that because then its out of my control and not expected. But for people I like I wont be upset at all and with the ISFP i'm friends with I kind of crave it more. You could try to get one of your friends to ask him. And see what kind of compliments he gives you, because we are not usually big on those or on appreciation comments. My main issue with my friends as that I was constantly torn between my head who was telling me to leave it alone because i didn't want to lose that friendship, or my heart who was telling me that this would be amazing and worth the risk, so most of the time i was stuck and didn't do anything. You might want to just tell your guy eventually though, because if you guys are really good friends, you can get passed it.

also, I was just wondering, because I've never met anyone like my friend and I before. Do you guys share everything with each other? And i dont know if you feel this, but do you feel sort of drawn to him? I just feel like ISFP's and ESTJ's have this connection where there's just no way they cant feel drawn to each other, but maybe that's just me.
 
#5 ·
Yes! and Yes! I am drawn to him like a magnate. He's not the usual type of person I date or am attracted to, but I want him so badly.

We both have major trust issues and never share with anyone things about ourselves, but he confides in me, and vice versa. We both aren't very touchy feely, but occasionally we'll be sitting next to each other or watching a movie together and our legs will touch, or I'll lean on his shoulder and he doesn't get tense or uncomfortable or try to move away. We are very comfortable together.

I guess my biggest fear is that I'll lose his friendship by showing my feelings. His friendship is one of the most precious friendships that I've ever had. But, like you said, it may be worth the risk. And also, since we're both women, we're naturally a bit more emotional, I can't wait to see what a guy will have to say...
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#6 ·
Ya its so weird. My friend and I became best friends because somehow we accidentally just poured our hearts out to each other before we were even friends. And we both feel this pull to tell each other whatever it is that's upsetting us. But agreed, the trust issues are also a huge one with us. We actually split up for 2 years because of it and then realized we couldn't actually let the other person be out of our lives forever, we just missed each other too much. I am also curious to see what guys my type have to say...liking your best friend makes everything so difficult.
 
#9 ·
Okay so I talked to my guy friend who is also a ESTJ about this, not really using detail but asking in a general way. And he said that when he likes someone he pays more attention to them than other people, he's more ernest with them, even when joking around. The things he says to them have more significance and meanings than what he says to others. He then said that if one of his best friends told him that they liked him, he would be flattered, but mostly he wouldn't let it come between their friendship if he didn't like them back. And I agree, ESTJ's are very committed to their relationships, especially the really close ones and would never end them unless we felt like it was absolutely necessary.

I was thinking that I told my ISFP friend that I liked him many years ago, and although he had a girlfriend at the time and was committed to her and didn't love me like that, or at least couldn't, I never really got a straight answer, our friendship didn't change at all. We actually became stronger and nothing really changed very much. Of course recently when he was drunk he told me that he thought i had bad timing when i said that, and always thought we'd end up getting married. But he claims he doesn't remember saying this so I have no idea what he really thinks.

Anyway, just thought i'd let you know what my guy ESTJ friend said!
 
#11 ·
The only ESTJ guy in this forum is T-Guy. He rarely lurk around, so you might want to PM him, imo.

Btw, Keirsey said that ISFP-ESTJ are an ideal match. So I'm also interested with how your relationship goes, seeing it as an ideal relationship. I had a crush on an ISFP guy once, but I don't recall that we ever "drawn to each other". I told him I like him, but he didn't say anything. And so the moment left us. He's married now.



 
#12 ·
@ Wicked Queen...I read that as well. But what I need help understanding...what makes ISFP-ESTJ so ideal, and INFP-ESTJ so difficult. Im in a current on again relationship with an ESTJ...but Im not the typical INFP (I have many 'hard' aspects in my astrological chart).
 
#13 ·
Well, ISFP and ESTJ are both sensors, so SP-SJ can make a good ideal match because although they have their own way in approaching the world (FP-TJ), they have the same way of viewing the world (Sensors). It's like ISFP-ESTJ has different tools, but they have the same purpose, so they complete each other.

On the other hand, INFP and ESTJ are very opposite to each other. I think the only reason why many of INFP-ESTJ are attracted to each other is because we both a shadow type of each other, and from our opposite partner, we see what we need that they have but we don't have. But basically INFP-ESTJ has more difficulties and harder to compromise comparing with ISFP-ESTJ, because we have very different ways in viewing the world (N-S) and also when approaching it (FP-TJ).


 
#15 ·
^Haha, I think I can relate.

Your story was interesting, I didn't know ESTJs and ISFPs had that kind of relationship. (Then again, I haven't really read up on every other personality besides ISFPs)

Hope I find an ESTJ :happy:
 
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#16 ·
Ya agreed, NF's and NT's drive me crazy sometimes. Like I can relate to the NT's really well on most things, but then there's always this different outlook on many things having to do with N vs. S that just make it difficult. I think people come together because they are attracted to the opposite, but what holds that relationship together is what they have in common, so if you're exactly opposite each other, you don't have any natural things in common.

When I read about the ESTJ and ISFP relationship I was shocked because that's exactly the kind of crazy best friendship I had. I wasn't sure that there were others though, and I'm glad to see that there are because that makes me feel like its more stable :).

ESTJ's are about 13% of the population, so as long as you find a healthy one, we are not that difficult to find. And we're probably the ones that approach you, so thats a good thing if you're shy. ISFP on the other hand is only 5% so it's not wonder these two types don't cross paths as often. In my case I just happened to be working in a very art filled job, and my best friend is a musician so we were bound to cross paths one way or another. I just thought he was sort of cocky and didn't care about other people, but I was definitely proven wrong. I'm assuming he thought I was sort of a lot to take at once when we first met as well, but you get passed that and it seems to be really amazing. And I will say that I changed my personality type to be less controlling and less harsh because of him. I actually found now that I am not as attracted to T's for personal relationships anymore. All those NF's I couldn't relate to suddenly became easier to talk to. Because of him, close relationships with T's are just too unfeeling for me. And he told me he gained more of a backbone from being with me. Its really amazing how much opposites can teach each other.
 
#17 ·
Interesting, I didn't know that there were so few of ISFPs and ESTJs.
Yeah, you're right if I meet an ESTJ they'll probably talk to me first :p (I'm pretty shy)
 
#18 ·
Also there just happen to be more men who are ESTJ's and more women who are ISFP's which makes it even smaller. But don't worry, we tend to be attracted to the quiet ones and you guys are such great listeners, especially considering we do like to talk a lot...:) You guys just have so many traits we wish we could have in ourselves. At least that's always what captures me about my friend. The problem is if I say so he doesn't always believe me, but we're getting there.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I've never met any other ISFP's so I cant say, but this one I was really drawn to because he was sort of a mystery to me. Quiet, and really talented and so so nice. It didn't seem real and then I found out it was and I wanted to learn more. You guys are just so sweet and know how to have fun. You're good listeners, which is ideal for us because we like to talk a lot. When you guys say stuff I really pay attention instead of interrupting because you're opinions are very unique and clearly thought out. I have a lot of appreciation for you guys.
 
#20 ·
Chelleblu:

I am not an ESTJ, but I have been married to one for 10 years. The first thing- You must have a complete mental reset on your quote -

I just want to get inside of his head.
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You will not...You will not… Not in the way you are thinking or more importantly feeling… So if you want to be with him in a deeper way you must get over that now… It is more important for you to be thinking you just want to get inside his calendar. Time is precious to them and if they are spending it on you, than you are precious to them. Period.

Second they don't fix what they perceive to be not broken. While you are pining away waiting for him to romance you, he may have no idea what so ever that you are unfulfilled.

So now the question you should be asking yourself is are you spending the time with him doing the things that you need to do to feel romantic. So let’s say you want to go out on a dance with him. I use dance as an example, but this can be anything. You need to irritate him in a way that gets your outcome.

For example. throw down a challenge. Say, "You know so and so knows how to dance. I bet you could if you tried... let's go to such and such tonight and see what you can do..." Then be silent... You may want to space this over several discussions… It will bug him and he will start to get motivated.

If that is too strong, try his nurturing/protective side. "You know I love to dance, but I get hit on by so many un cool people and all my girlfriends are busy tonight... Can we go to such and such tonight?" Then work to make it habitual.

If you think I am nuts, I moved in with my then girlfriend (who is now my wife) by saying the laundry machine in my apartment building is really slow. You have two fast ones in your apartment building that can get the job done much quicker. Can I bring my laundry bag over? It never left…
 
#21 ·
I agree partially about the time thing although i have to say that I spend a lot of time on people who are not that important to me as well. I would say that I do more things for the people i care about.

I am a little hurt that you say we cant be deep. My sister is an INFP and she would probably say that if she wasn't my sister she'd agree. But she knows me really well and she knows that I have a deep side, it doesn't come out very often, but it's there.
Also, we are not oblivious. Tricking an ESTJ into doing something is not straightforward and a little too dramatic for me. However, I do respond better if I feel like the people I love need to be taken care of better, and i do like challenges. I know my INFP has a sneaky way of getting me to do things, but I have to say that I dont really like it. She could easily ask me in a straightforward manner and I will respond depending on how important I think it is to her, she just needs to tell me. I know when I'm being manipulated and sometimes i wont do something because I know it.

I think that in general it is impossible to get inside any personality's head besides your own. You may be able to see certain sides or aspects, but overall you're never going to know what they are thinking unless you think like them. And like chelleblu and I discussed earlier, for some reason with ISFP and ESTJ relationships, there is a strange effect that we have on each other. I dont know what it is, but I will open up for no one else but my ISFP. I have no deeper conversations than I do with him and he makes me want to see a different side of myself. I cant really explain it, but when you know you have that connection with someone it changes things. If he tells me he is upset by something that i dont see is a problem i will happily change for him, just because it is important to him.

You do however seem like you know your ESTJ pretty well. I just think that its tricky for INFP's and ESTJs to ever understand each other. My sister and I have been together for 20 years and still get into the same fights. There is just something about our exact oppositions that makes it very hard for us to see the other person's views. It doesn't mean they cant have a relationship, but I think its way more of a challenge than an ESTJ and an ISFP.
 
#22 ·
I am sorry to have hurt you, but I actually think you got my point. To day I can have incredibly deep conversations with my wife. She is my sole mate and knows me better than I know myself. I wouldn’t be with her if we couldn’t. My intention was not to say the ESTJs can’t have deep conversations, it is to say take things in stages. My concern is that she was talking at the sole mate level and wanting to get in his head but it didn’t seem like she was at first base. I didn’t want her going after him to have deep emotional connection the way an FP would like and have him pull back because it was too deep to fast.

The other thing that I was trying to do was move the relationship from intellectual to more physical. Talking is great but being physically intimate is another. My concern here is that he has classified her as his best intellectual friend and is not seeing her as a romantic possibility. Sometimes having the straight forward discussion can lead to the wall, “You are a great friend and I would hate to loose that friendship by complicating it with a dating thing.” It can be hard to rebrand yourself with an ESTJ. Once you are an X you are an X.

So that is why I was suggesting un asking the question. Don’t give him an ultimatum… By saying yes to this we are dating, by saying no we are now just friends… It is too dangerous. Give him a third way out. By saying yes to this you are helping me like you would help your friends and if you enjoy it in other ways than cool.

My wife was at the time a NYC Police officer. So were both of her parents. She totally guarded her private space and could have easily made my life a living hell if she wanted to. But at the same time allowing me in was a huge step of vulnerability. If I had opened it up with a DEEP conversation talking about our future and what this meant for our relationship and where we were going and what was she feeling… Like I can very easily. All of her barriers would have gone up and it might not have happened. She knew what I was up to and could have easily told me to get out at anytime (at gun point really) but in the end it became just a fun game. You might call it being tricky… Others might call it flirting…
 
#23 ·
That makes so much sense! Thanks so much! I completely agree. It's funny, I've experienced exactly what you're talking about. I get it. Don't move too fast. Don't pressure. Don't label. Just drop the bread crumbs and eventually, if they like what they've been nibbling on, they'll come running after you. Right?
 
#24 ·
I hope things have gone well.

Being an ESTJ male, I will share one of my former attractions lol. I tend to like women with dark hair, and dark eyes, but if an SP female is around all bets are off. As long as I believe she can be faithful, and there is mutual attraction that is. My type tends to want someone with a perfect background (morally), or as little baggage as possible. As we get older we realize this isn't likely, and mellow out a little bit. I used to work retail, and these two regular customers would come in. One was everything I like physically, and the other was the SP female who was not my type at all. I was drawn to her something feirce.

As an ESTJ male let me explain some of my thoughts on spending time with women, I may be wrong as this may just be me. If a winab asks me to help her do something, I probably will help her if I have the time. I will make small talk with a female coworker, and try to make them feel comfortable. New female coworkers I will introduce myself, and try to make them feel accepted and comfortable. This behavior gets me tagged as hitting on them, but I'm not and most of them I'm not attracted too. If I go out of my way to talk to a woman, and try to include myself in her life, I'm probably attracted to her. There is one situation where this isn't the case, if she is obviously hurting an ESTJ male may try to help her. I hope this helps.:laughing:
 
#25 ·
Hello!

I think I'm dating an ESTJ (or maybe an ISTJ).. haven't seen him with a group of people yet, but I think he talks kind of alot.. well more than me at least ;) I've never dated anyone who's like this before.

I'm the type of person that has a lot of feelings... Like everything that's happened in past relationships effects me still. I don't tell him about that though. About the feelings, that is.

I'm not used to feeling this reassured. Guys are usually playing games or hiding crap from you. This ESTJ guy talks to me every day.. Pretty early on he talked to me about how he wants his future to look like... house and kids and all that. (I said that I don't know what I want ;)) And he's very logical and plan things. He buys me dinner, he lets me decide what we're gonna do.
It's not that we're in love with eachother.. yet. We haven't been physical so maybe things'll change after that. Because we've both talked about how we're attracted to eachother. And he's like already discussed how I like sex in a logical and planned out way, hahaha. Oh man.

I've come close to talk about love but I've felt like I've been on thin ice, because he's started to talk all cold and logical about it and I've felt that if we'd get into this discussion we'd only misunderstand eachother, so I've joked it off.

I don't know if I'm gonna fall in love, and I don't know if he's even capable of it. That sounds mean. Maybe he's just taking it slow. But that is so unusual. There must be something about him, or I wouldn't wanna spend all this time on him..


Oh well, just wanted to get it out of my head.
 
#26 ·
@haushinka

If he talks to you every day, the chance is that he likes you. He probably is trying to see if you can fit in with his life and future plans, before deciding to have anything serious in terms of relationship.
 
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#27 ·
He's talked to me everyday for 2 months... Yesterday I didn't hear from him, and then he tells me that it feels so complicated. He blames it on the distance between us and our jobs. I think that is just an excuse to stop seing me. He doesn't even work now, and I can adjust my work if needed to.
I've been sad all day. I hate this.
Apparently I have feelings. I don't understand how he can just dump everything like this. Even though I'm telling him that this feels tough, he seems very casual about it.

I don't know what to do.
 
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