[ESTP] Are other types aware of how much ESTPs Are NOT their enemy - Page 61

Are other types aware of how much ESTPs Are NOT their enemy

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This is a discussion on Are other types aware of how much ESTPs Are NOT their enemy within the ESTP Forum - The Doers forums, part of the SP's Temperament Forum- The Creators category; Estps dumb Non estps smart Simple......

  1. #601

    Estps dumb
    Non estps smart
    Simple...

  2. #602

    Ah, the "Dude Bros"...not the actual bully, but definitely the actual bully's groupie.

  3. #603

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpytiger View Post
    This is what you wrote.

    "I'm remembering watching a very obnoxious 22 year old ESTP try to win my nerdy friend's affection because they had been to a 2 month long training together and I think any time you guys have respect and like for someone (someone gets under your skin) you do try to tease them into liking you and pour on some ESTP charm to win them over and/or "innocently" terrorize them if you are bored. It was endearing watching him, kind of his saving grace it seemed to me."

    1. You did generalise in the second half of the first sentence.
    2. You generalised about the charm in that part.
    3. Your generalisation about the type of charm did imply it has an obnoxious quality (even though you indicated later that it is not just that).
    4. You said OP's post proves your generalisations on ESTPs.

    So I was refuting this point of yours. I definitely addressed it. And OP was also aiming to do the same. So yeah it was rather funny that you went past OP's point with your post.

    And you started your first post to me that you agree, correct, the OP didn't prove what you said. So... what are we talking about?

    If this is too much Si for you at this point, feel free to stop loool.

    Just don't expect me to go with the slippery goalpost shifting though :p

    Something else: yeah ESTPs can try to help others in a too forceful or crude way, okay, but that's a different point, unrelated to the above. I would say that one has validity.
    Your last sentence (which is also a generalization-- not sure why you think that is okay for you but not for me?) is a bit closer to what I was saying, the concept I expressed was actually constructive, I hope, although made slightly cryptic so that those who wanted to understand would be the only ones to listen to it. I was pointing out that if you don't understand the desires of values of the person that you are trying to help, then you likely aren't helping and I added some examples to show what I see and think-- a few were a bit snarky, but honestly what I see. I didn't ever say that I didn't generalize and I don't think it's wrong (do you?) to generalize as long as it is implied that this is a personal opinion based on a pattern of what I've observed and that there can be more incoming information and also exceptions. (ESTPs being fellow perceivers would likely think so too, so I didn't make too much of an effort to explain the perceiver view on that). I think you might not realize that seeing the big picture with Ne and what you call generalizing is probably the same thing from your standpoint, but that (ask Jung) Ne is expert at seeing big patterns. I didn't say that the OP's post proves anything. I said her post strengthened my opinion. My opinion being that ESTPs often don't realize that other people don't want or need their help to pursue their own aims. If she is having to bash our heads in with her point that she is actually helping.... well that's not helping, is it? Instead it's bashing people's head in. There was a reason she felt like she needed to make the thread. I don't even see this as "proving a point" either way. I just wanted to put my observation in that often ESTPs don't realize other people don't have their same aims or values. If/when ESTPs realize other people are different and want to help that person's situation with that person's individual goals, then I really think ESTPs could be very effective if that is their aim. I see nothing wrong with this concept that I'm bringing up and I don't feel like you've said anything to refute the concept that I made. I do not think I've back-slid on the concept I actually discussed... although granted it was quite a long time ago and I'm always open to new information and to meeting ESTPs whom I think are effective helpers. So I'm always open to new information that might alter my opinion and I give this grace to everyone. So far nothing we've said has given me new information. If you showed me several examples of ESTPs asking everyone what their life goals are and listened before they made any moves concerning others and if you showed me that this was at least 60% of 8 out of 10 ESTP interactions with others then I would feel like I had new evidence to make new patterns and generalizations from. New information is what would change my current opinion. However, my concept to begin with seems sound to me. How can you help someone if you don't understand what actually would make them happy, whole or well? However, at this time I see ESTP's desire to help sometimes endearing and sometimes amusing and sometimes obnoxious, yes, and heaven help those who cross them.

    It is a challenge for me to talk to Si doms. I don't understand the assumptions or the assumptions of their goals in talking. And if my Ne weren't too much for you (if you want to put it that way) we wouldn't be having this discussion I don't think.

    I always feel like Si doms start with "There's a problem with this cog in the machinery." And I start with "What is the purpose of the machine? Can we review your life goals? Actually I don't think this underwater basket weaving machine will ultimately win you your life goals. Maybe if it weren't underwater? That seems superfluous. Would turning it into a flying ice cream maker interest you? I can see where it would meet all your goals and that we have the materials! We could turn the basket weaver into something else if you don't like that idea. I can think of 4 things we could do with the materials at hand that would reach your life goals." And the Si dom says "You're not even looking at this cog! There's a problem with it!" And I say, "It doesn't matter about the cog, I can see the whole machine is not the right one for your goal." Talk about bottom up or top down. Once I think the system will reach the big picture goal then it, admittedly, is actually still hard for me to look at the cog, it's true.... not my expertise and considered boring and somewhat unimportant. Just as considering whether a flying ice cream maker (or anything else) would or would not make your dreams come true would not be your expertise.

    Anyway, I wonder how many pages long it would take for us to actually thoroughly understand each other's views and goals for discussion. We would need an INFP interpreter and an ESTJ interpreter and I'd need a prescription for blood pressure medication first. Our interpreters eat each other and in the end we would have been married, divorced, re-married (no, not really, I'm just saying so to be horrifying) and I would have stabbed an eye out with a fork and you would be 80 years old before you were like "I guess you made a helpful point based on all the things you've looked at and experienced. Actually I saw that a few people took your suggestion." And I'd finally say, "Alright, hand the cog over so my eye can look it over, dang it."

    I do have an idea of starting a thread where ENFPs and ISTJs try to challenge each other to thoroughly understand each other on say... I don't know.... it would have to be something small and I wonder how many pages it would take for each party to thoroughly understand everything the other thinks.

    But I don't think we should tie up this thread anymore. If you feel like you need to comment on my page you can, although I hope you're done.
    grumpytiger thanked this post.

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  5. #604
    INFJ

    Hello, everyone! INFJ, here.

    When I was a teenager I surely felt as if people who had very ESTP traits as an enemy. Of course, as I got older I realized that's not the case at all.

    I find my interactions with ESTPs to be quite fascinating and challenging. I can connect greatly with them but at the same time, we're polar opposites. We grow alongside one another. Having an ESTP close to me has made me a better person and has allowed me to come out of my shell and do the things that make me happier.

    It also keeps me grounded to reality and not caught entirely too much on my own thoughts and feelings. It's allowed me to share what I have to give to everyone instead of letting it bottle up.

    So, coming from your potential opposite MBTI. I personally see ESTP as the most loyal and honest friend you'll ever meet. How can anyone consider that an enemy?

    I'm an INFJ who appreciates honesty above all else, and because of that I actually find it difficult to get along with other INFJs who haven't quite understood their bad traits or self-reflected enough upon themselves yet. Who seemingly maintain that "victim" mentality with their lack of Se and overwhelming Fe. Trying to get through to fellow INFJs about such a open reflection usually ends in being wrongfully judged. And it hurts to see it because there's so much potential and compassion lost. :(

    I'm actually hoping to meet and trade discussions with ESTPs, here. It's rather stimulating and refreshing if I may say so.

  6. #605

    @Llyralen

    lool the part about ISTJ-ENFP taking until we both are really old to understand each other... :P I'd also need the blood pressure medication, to be honest. : PP

    Feel free to start that thread, if nothing else, it'll be good to get frustrations out (like some boxing game).

    You made me laugh, anyhow.

    As for the original topic: like I said I won't go with slippery goalpost shifting. I get it that you had another point too in the original post I got at originally and this other point you did flesh out here. I happen to have analysed that issue earlier - you can call it me checking out some Ne - about it making a difference how much you understand someone's goals and values. So what you said there, you fleshing it out, makes sense. (Yes wait, yeah, the Si got your Ne, right? lol...)

    However, I pointed out something about the second part of your original post, not the part you focused on in your subsequent posts. (That's why it came off as shifting the goalpost. I'm not saying it has to be intentional.) Let's say, I get what you mean by the OP proving the first point now that you fleshed that one out - however, OP was definitely not proving the second point of yours, and it was quite ironic that you posted as if ignoring a big point of OP, which is what I focused on. I do not want to repeat myself though like in the previous post of mine and I do not have the Ne to care to try and find an alternative way to explain.

    If you do have interest in understanding my point there, then feel free to try this out for the new ISTJ/ENFP thread - feel free to start the thread with it then. :) I would be glad to try and explain in whatever way I can (try to find the Ne then). But I personally don't have interest in reviewing it otherwise. You want to get my point or you don't want to try and get it, it's about as simple as that.

    That aside. The example you gave about Si doms. I'd go mad, true. heh. I do not want to switch over to thinking about life goals every time a concrete problem comes up. You know, the idea on how ESTPs would need to realise how others may have a different aim... it applies here too even though you are an ENFP and not ESTP. Like, yeah, understand that the Si dom has a different aim, not reevaluating life goals, because maybe the Si dom has his/her own opinion about what his/her life goals are, and has his/her own idea on the course as to how they will get there. So maybe that cog does matter for that course. Or it just matters for life quality in terms of the context of what's desired/dreamed of. I do have awareness of life goals and dreams for myself. For sure, I do not analyse other people's dreams though.
    Last edited by grumpytiger; 08-25-2019 at 02:27 PM.
    Llyralen thanked this post.

  7. #606

    Quote Originally Posted by grumpytiger View Post
    @Llyralen

    lool the part about ISTJ-ENFP taking until we both are really old to understand each other... :P I'd also need the blood pressure medication, to be honest. : PP

    Feel free to start that thread, if nothing else, it'll be good to get frustrations out (like some boxing game).

    You made me laugh, anyhow.

    As for the original topic: like I said I won't go with slippery goalpost shifting. I get it that you had another point too in the original post I got at originally and this other point you did flesh out here. I happen to have analysed that issue earlier - you can call it me checking out some Ne - about it making a difference how much you understand someone's goals and values. So what you said there, you fleshing it out, makes sense. (Yes wait, yeah, the Si got your Ne, right? lol...)

    However, I pointed out something about the second part of your original post, not the part you focused on in your subsequent posts. (That's why it came off as shifting the goalpost. I'm not saying it has to be intentional.) Let's say, I get what you mean by the OP proving the first point now that you fleshed that one out - however, OP was definitely not proving the second point of yours, and it was quite ironic that you posted as if ignoring a big point of OP, which is what I focused on. I do not want to repeat myself though like in the previous post of mine and I do not have the Ne to care to try and find an alternative way to explain.

    If you do have interest in understanding my point there, then feel free to try this out for the new ISTJ/ENFP thread - feel free to start the thread with it then. :) I would be glad to try and explain in whatever way I can (try to find the Ne then). But I personally don't have interest in reviewing it otherwise. You want to get my point or you don't want to try and get it, it's about as simple as that.

    That aside. The example you gave about Si doms. I'd go mad, true. heh. I do not want to switch over to thinking about life goals every time a concrete problem comes up. You know, the idea on how ESTPs would need to realise how others may have a different aim... it applies here too even though you are an ENFP and not ESTP. Like, yeah, understand that the Si dom has a different aim, not reevaluating life goals, because maybe the Si dom has his/her own opinion about what his/her life goals are, and has his/her own idea on the course as to how they will get there. So maybe that cog does matter for that course. Or it just matters for life quality in terms of the context of what's desired/dreamed of. I do have awareness of life goals and dreams for myself. For sure, I do not analyse other people's dreams though.
    I'm glad I made you laugh. It's good to know that you guys need the blood pressure meds too.

    I do constantly analyse other people's dreams and goals. I would not have been able to write any of that metaphor if I did not have a very good idea that Si doms have a different aim than I do. It was actually the whole point of that story--- I didn't think I needed to say it straight since I obviously have a good understanding of what it would take for us to understand each other (but see, that's a connection that might not be obvious to you). This is Ne-Fi, I understand others' goals, motivation, feelings, and situations easily. Having them understand me or me thinking that what they are saying matters or is actually true in my private universe is something else, though as I might see other possibilities that I believe are more important or true. Or guessing what is obvious to people is also not a forte of ENFPs, we think what is obvious to us is obvious to others. A lot of what we post is just a show and tell "Look at THIS, people!" and we think other people see what we see.... and they don't. lol.

    I wrote the thread I discussed last night. I first asked questions about ISTJ views of respect. Not sure what exactly to copy and past of ours, though, because I don't see what it is I haven't addressed. Although I think it's a great idea to use this material. I might not feel that the goal of me posting is to address everything said in the OP. I think the goal of me posting was to put my own concept/observation out there in case it helped anyone understand working with others. And I don't mind changing some of my views with more information. Right now I think that the majority of ESTPs who are trying to get someone to change do so with charm and in an obnoxious way, if that is the issue you think I'm sliding on. But I think I just wanted the ESTPs to be warned about that, because... didn't I also write about my ESTP friend whose mother was put into an asylum and his way of being with others when they need it is far from obnoxious. It's raw and real and always brings tears to my eyes of gratitude for the empathetic man he has become through hardship.
    Last edited by Llyralen; 08-25-2019 at 04:24 PM.

  8. #607

    @Llyralen well as for your comment as to what it would take for ISTJ vs ENFP to understand each other... a whole different world than this one that exists. : P

    I saw the thread since then & posted in it.

    As for the original topic we TRIED TO discuss here... thanks for trying to. :) I get that you posted your own pov. It possibly won't ever match mine or OP's, but hey, eh.

  9. #608

    What's wrong with being "an enemy of something/someone" anyway.
    AnneM thanked this post.

  10. #609

    “[W]hen one tries desperately to be good and wonderful and perfect, then all the more the shadow develops a definite will to be black and evil and destructive. People cannot see that; they are always striving to be marvellous, and then they discover that terrible destructive things happen which they cannot understand, and they either deny that such facts have anything to do with them, or if they admit them, they take them for natural afflictions, or they try to minimize them and to shift the responsibility elsewhere. The fact is that if one tries beyond one’s capacity to be perfect, the shadow descends into hell and becomes the devil.”
    (Carl Jung, Visions: Notes of the Seminar Given in 1930–1934)


    Projection is one of the commonest psychic phenomena…Everything that is unconscious in ourselves we discover in our neighbour, and we treat him accordingly.”
    (Carl Jung, Archaic Man)


    We have to discover our shadow. Otherwise we are driven into a world war in order to see what beasts we are.”
    (Carl Jung, Visions: Notes of the Seminar Given in 1930–1934)
    AnneM thanked this post.

  11. #610

    Just before 1939 lol
    ENIGMA2019 and grumpytiger thanked this post.


     
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