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Making Decisions with FEELINGS - an ESTP Handicap...

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12K views 37 replies 10 participants last post by  MinervaSSS 
#1 ·
SO -

Over the past two years my wife and I went to marriage counseling to try and improve our communication issues.

One of the things I learned about myself was that I am devoid of ability to make decisions about things that are predominately "feelings based." For example, whether or not I wanted a divorce. I knew I loved my wife dearly, I knew we were both miserable dealing with each other, I knew I had no fear of dividing everything in half and starting over from scratch, but I could not for the life of me make a decision on the topic as a whole. I knew how I felt about every issue that was good or bad, but not whether to stay or go.

So, how did I try to solve it? MS Excel! I bought every credible book I could find on Amazon.com specific to how to decide to stay or leave a relationship. I scoured threw them all, summarized them in a spreadsheet, and tried to make sense of it all. No luck. None. Paralyzed.

I ended up in a depression after that, the first of my life, EVER. I was a useless lump of a person for about 4 months. How did I end it? I had to ID what I was depressed about. So I thought...and thought...and thought...and after getting slapped in the head by the marriage counselor: "Don't think about what is making you depressed! Figure out what you feel sad or mad about that you have not resolved!"

Thank God a few days later I realized I was sad about not knowing what to about the divorce, and I was really pissed about a personal matter. Then, as ESTPs naturally do, I THOUGHT about how I wanted to handle the problems, and what ACTIONS would allow me to reach positive closure.

My wife made my life easy. She came to me out of the blue and apologized for her share of our problems and told me she loved me and that if I stayed she would work very hard to meet me half way and make me happy. How could I leave now? I couldn't. That was what I needed. Problem solved, the patience of getting there almost killed me, I have no patience.

The other matter was even more simple. Once I knew what was pissing me off I figured out a way to obliterate the situation and did it. That was that!

So, it toook FEELINGS to identify what was causing me depression, but once the culprits were known I resolved them with THOUGHT and ACTION.

I can tell anyone how I feel, it's usually: "Great!"
I can describe my feelings in words or in writing very easily.
But making a decision based on feelings? Forget it. Dead in the water!
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Has anyone else (ESTP or maybe other Thinking types) had to deal with such things?

If so, is it not a real pain in the ass?!

It is the one time in the past two years of me having some understanding of MBTI that I found a definitive weakness in being an ESTP. All other aspects of my implementation of the type I am totally at peace with, but this one sucks!
 
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#2 ·
Poor dear. If it makes you feel any better, those of us who can use our feelings to work out these kinds of decisions still have trouble dealing with them. We just have different reasons for the complications. Sometimes there are too many conflicting feelings that define multiple mutually exclusive goals, forcing us to decide between one of several non-ideal options. We lament over no-win situations, paralyzed into inaction because we don't like any of the available choices, no matter how much we understand our feelings about them.
 
#4 ·
Poor dear. If it makes you feel any better, those of us who can use our feelings to work out these kinds of decisions still have trouble dealing with them. We just have different reasons for the complications.
Somehow that is a relief! Thanks!:laughing:

Sometimes there are too many conflicting feelings that define multiple mutually exclusive goals, forcing us to decide between one of several non-ideal options. We lament over no-win situations, paralyzed into inaction because we don't like any of the available choices, no matter how much we understand our feelings about them.
That has got to be tough. Once I decide what I want (usually an instantaneous process) I then move on to figuring out how to make it happen with what I have available. If you ever need help just PM me. ;-)

Yes I had to deal with the exact same issue. We divorced though and I found out all this afterward.
I am not alone then. Sorry you had to go through a divorce. That had to have really sucked.

Oddly enough, I had no fear of enduring a divorce if it had to happen, but figuring out if that's what I wanted nearly did me in. It was horrible. Thank God my wife said what she did when she did. I owe her big time for that.

I use my feeling for decision making a lot more now and I am definitely more in tune with emotions. I still know I am a thinker through and through but I know not to ignore my other half.
THIS! ^ That's exactly where I am at now. It's almost embarrassing to have ignored that side of reality for so long. And that is what I did, literally ignore it. I hope that lesson sticks with me. It was certainly one learned the hard way. Thanks for your input.
 
#3 ·
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Has anyone else (ESTP or maybe other Thinking types) had to deal with such things?

If so, is it not a real pain in the ass?!

It is the one time in the past two years of me having some understanding of MBTI that I found a definitive weakness in being an ESTP. All other aspects of my implementation of the type I am totally at peace with, but this one sucks!
Yes I had to deal with the exact same issue. We divorced though and I found out all this afterward. I use my feeling for decision making a lot more now and I am definitely more in tune with emotions. I still know I am a thinker through and through but I know not to ignore my other half.
 
#5 ·
no problem at all. I am fine with the divorce. It sucks we split but that's how it goes. Me and my ex-wife have a great relationship now and we are happy. Some on this site can't understand how an ESTP can have feelings or hang out with women. I know what I am and what I want, so to hell with everyone else :p
 
#6 · (Edited)
no problem at all. I am fine with the divorce. It sucks we split but that's how it goes. Me and my ex-wife have a great relationship now and we are happy.
Hey, that's great that you and your ex-wife have a great relationship. Seriously, I think that's cool. Not all women are OK with such an arrangement. Sometimes general incompatibility is more than enough to force a parting of ways. I have never tried so hard to make anything a success as my marriage, and coming from someone that hasn't had to try very hard to accomplish whatever I've set my mind to over the years, that is saying alot. It's not a simple institution, far more complicated than I had ever imagined.

Some on this site can't understand how an ESTP can have feelings or hang out with women. I know what I am and what I want, so to hell with everyone else :p
Cheers to that. Oh, how dare you make up your mind as to what you want out of life and pursue it at all costs. Shame on you. I've gotten over that too. Just because our feelings aren't worn on our sleeve doesn't mean we don't have them, we're just not subordinate to them. And as far as hanging out with women, seems most other males try much of their lives to figure out how to accomplish that. So, if you've got it down then what's the problem? Do we oversimplify things that badly? I don't see it.
 
#7 · (Edited)
ESTPs are known for delaying action, hoping that a solution to a problem will appear after awhile and can be taken advantage of.

It is like procrastanation with purpose. Sometimes it works, many times it does not

Sounds like that was the process you were caught up in, along with your awakening of Fi

Do you now feel like hanging out with girls mostly and talking about your feelings with them all the time?

ps

According to Myers Briggs in "Gifts Differing" Feeling Judgement is actually the primary judgement function for ESTPs

If you are aware of such and pay attention to your judgement processes, it is easy to pick up the pattern of such judgements
 
#8 ·
Do you now feel like hanging out with girls mostly and talking about your feelings with them all the time?
Halla meet one of the resident trolls. He is a self confessed ENTP who thinks I am not an ESTP cause I have feelings. He also insinuates I am gay cause I hang around with women. Fun guy really.
 
#10 ·
Now, now, do these kinds of issues really matter?
I love you, Ape, whether someone else thinks you are an 8 or a 6,
and I love you, Treebob, whether someone else thinks you are a T or an F.
We are not defined by letters and numbers.
These are all just labels, and who you actually are does not depend on them.

:tongue:
 
#11 ·
TreeBob and Ape, Are you boys gonna wrestle this out all oiled up and in gladiator uniforms?

to answer the OP,I'm going through this same thing at the moment.Not with a marriage but with a LTR with an INFP.. At first he was OK with me not being the stereotypical girl making decisions based on feelings, but now it's like he's expecting more... To be honest it's freaking annoying because it comes across as him saying "OK enough of this, it's time for you to start acting how you're supposed to act" :angry:
 
#12 ·
TreeBob and Ape, Are you boys gonna wrestle this out all oiled up and in gladiator uniforms?
*buys some popcorn and finds a seat to watch the match*

I like how easily you antagonise each other. Perhaps I shouldn't be entertained, but you're both too cute.

You're like the brothers I never had.
 
#14 ·
And as for the original OP

Someone said that depression is often forced introversion.

It would seem you were at that age where ESTPs begin to sneak a peak inward and begin the challenging path of understanding their innards, beginning the process of growing up and catching up to other Types emotional development that we have disdain for in earlier life.

Your behaviors were in accordance with the established pattern of your Type
 
#15 ·
And as for the original OP
Someone said that depression is often forced introversion.
Hello, Ape. Thanks for your reply.

To an extrovert, introversion does seem depressing, so that sounds like a reasonable comparison. Interesting.

It would seem you were at that age where ESTPs begin to sneak a peak inward and begin the challenging path of understanding their innards, beginning the process of growing up and catching up to other Types emotional development that we have disdain for in earlier life.
Regarding "age":

Do you mean I was at a juncture in my life that compelled me to sneak a peak inward to begin understanding areas of my cognitive development left "in the dust" as I grew up and implemented my default ESTP programming?

If so, that makes sense. That most likely happens at different ages to different ESTPs for different reasons, I imagine. I was 35 when the incident described in the OP occurred, just this past March. To be quite honest I was never really challenged to try and see things from any other perspective than my own until that time. Maybe I got my way too often for too long.

Your behaviors were in accordance with the established pattern of your Type
Very interesting hearing other ESTPs reflect on this type of stuff. Typological profiles are easy enough to come by (some good, more bad), but the details of how members of one's own type handle certain events in real life are hard to come by unless you bump into your own kind.

SIDE COMMENT:
I took the MMPI about 10 years ago. When the results of it were explained to me I was told that I would most likely never experience a major depressive episode in my life. I thought four months was a major depressive episode, as I had never been depressed for more than a day or two until then. But once I heard of several years of depression from others, I realized how lucky I was to be programmed that way. I didn't know until many years later that was ESTP programming.
:laughing:

Cheers,

-Halla
 
#16 ·
Regarding "age":

Do you mean I was at a juncture in my life that compelled me to sneak a peak inward to begin understanding areas of my cognitive development left "in the dust" as I grew up and implemented my default ESTP programming?

If so, that makes sense. That most likely happens at different ages to different ESTPs for different reasons, I imagine. I was 35 when the incident described in the OP occurred, just this past March. To be quite honest I was never really challenged to try and see things from any other perspective than my own until that time. Maybe I got my way too often for too long.
Exactly. Sooner or later you take a shot that knocks you to the ground and for the first time you can't get up. The inside turmoil and pain can no longer be ignored it must be addressed. I find the systematic patterns in MBTI to be a lifesaver in an ocean of doom as I can use it as a map or guide in entering the emotional world whilst maintaining a much needed rational pimphand

More often than not the shot is delivered by those close to us.



Very interesting hearing other ESTPs reflect on this type of stuff. Typological profiles are easy enough to come by (some good, more bad), but the details of how members of one's own type handle certain events in real life are hard to come by unless you bump into your own kind.
Nothing like being able to talk it out so as to fill in the gaps. Book learning is not the ESTP forte, but hands on practical chats on the topic, where questions can be asked and answered, can explode their learning curve upwards

Too bad most ignore and dismiss sites like this in their younger years
 
#17 ·
Exactly. Sooner or later you take a shot that knocks you to the ground and for the first time you can't get up. The inside turmoil and pain can no longer be ignored it must be addressed. I find the systematic patterns in MBTI to be a lifesaver in an ocean of doom as I can use it as a map or guide in entering the emotional world whilst maintaining a much needed rational pimphand
Wielding a rational pimphand is an essential life skill, most certainly.

More often than not the shot is delivered by those close to us.
Of course, no one else is allowed inside the fortress! That makes sense.

Nothing like being able to talk it out so as to fill in the gaps. Book learning is not the ESTP forte, but hands on practical chats on the topic, where questions can be asked and answered, can explode their learning curve upwards
I read what I need, to do what I want, that I don't understand. I have not read anything for pleasure for as long as I can remember. Reading fiction novels (as my INTJ brother did for decades) never made sense to me.

Too bad most ignore and dismiss sites like this in their younger years
Guilty, Hah! I ignored the Internet entirely until it was thrust upon me after I graduated college and took a job.
 
#18 ·
Guilty, Hah! I ignored the Internet entirely until it was thrust upon me after I graduated college and took a job.
Did ya cheat like a muthafucker in college?

My cheating schemes were works of art

I was a history major so I did not care, not like anybody was gonna die on the operating table because I cheated on my school work
 
#19 ·
Haaaah! No, I didn't cheat. I took a few courses more than once though. Maybe I would've saved time if I did cheat. Oh well. At that point in my life it was more appropriate to say that "I was enrolled in college" but I didn't really "attend classes" with much regularity. There was way more interesting stuff to do, like party, chase girls, scuba dive, and go to nightclubs. Books? Meh.
 
#21 ·
I cheated for someone else once. He knew all of the material, but was overwhelmed with too many assignments to finish all at once. He had to choose between finishing his brilliantly complex final project for an art class, and finishing his final paper for a philosophy class that I had already taken. So, I wrote the philosophy paper for him. I had him tell me what he wanted to say in it, how he wanted it structured, etc, and all I did was type it out in a finished form. Then I helped him spray paint the red telephone poles for his art project.

Even though nobody was harmed by it, I still consider it immoral. I shouldn't have done that because if everyone cheated, grades would be meaningless. I just couldn't bring myself not to at the time, because I cared more about my friend than I cared about following rules, even when I agreed with the rules.

Then again, if grades are supposed to represent how much a person knows about a subject, his grades were more accurate this way than if I had let him fail.
 
#22 ·
I cheated for someone else once. He knew all of the material, but was overwhelmed with too many assignments to finish all at once. He had to choose between finishing his brilliantly complex final project for an art class, and finishing his final paper for a philosophy class that I had already taken. So, I wrote the philosophy paper for him. I had him tell me what he wanted to say in it, how he wanted it structured, etc, and all I did was type it out in a finished form. Then I helped him spray paint the red telephone poles for his art project.

Even though nobody was harmed by it, I still consider it immoral. I shouldn't have done that because if everyone cheated, grades would be meaningless. I just couldn't bring myself not to at the time, because I cared more about my friend than I cared about following rules, even when I agreed with the rules.

Then again, if grades are supposed to represent how much a person knows about a subject, his grades were more accurate this way than if I had let him fail.

Gotta love the herbivores

No harm....no foul

I had to deal the best I could with my ESTP handicap in academia and I did what had to be done (nobody offered me a parking spot)

Cuz I'm a Doer
 
#24 ·
Yes, but the irony is that the philosophy paper was on Kantian ethics. *hides*

...and as one of the examples showing how the Categorical Imperative applies, I explained in the paper why it would be wrong to cheat on a college assignment even when it harmed nobody.

*hides again*
 
#26 ·
Yes, but the irony is that the philosophy paper was on Kantian ethics. *hides*

...and as one of the examples showing how the Categorical Imperative applies, I explained in the paper why it would be wrong to cheat on a college assignment even when it harmed nobody.

*hides again*
The humerous irony is bursting from the page

I would have offered to do the cheating on the paper even if I did not know the guy.....just to be in on the punchline

That shit is funny
 
#25 ·
Then again, if grades are supposed to represent how much a person knows about a subject, his grades were more accurate this way than if I had let him fail.
And today i bet you he remembers little if anything of the silly course that isolated academics in their twisted ivory towers deemed a must pass to get on with one's life

I refuse to play the silly games of the silly people
 
#29 ·
I have the opposite issue. I don't know how to make decisions WITHOUT feelings.

This can make me feel like a lousy parent sometimes, because I know I need to be more consistent and objective with my son, but it's HARD. :blushed:
 
#30 ·
I have the opposite issue. I don't know how to make decisions WITHOUT feelings.

This can make me feel like a lousy parent sometimes, because I know I need to be more consistent and objective with my son, but it's HARD. :blushed:
Interesting!

So there is a similar issue for ESFPs with regard to having issues in making decisions that are mostly "Thinking" (objective, cold, analytical, whatever) in nature?

WOWZERS!!! :shocked:
 
#32 ·
Well sorry about that. You sound like a really mature estp. I like your avatar haha.


I think you can make decisions based on feelings. ST's feelings are pretty much NF feelings ...just more unconscious. When I use logic...it's in an ST manner.....not NT.


Here's why.


ESTP= Se Ti Fe Ni

notice your feelings are backed up with Ni......so therefore your feelings tend to flow in an NFish sort of manner.

sorry this is all kinda out there.
 
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#33 ·
Well sorry about that. You sound like a really mature estp. I like your avatar haha.
Hey there! No need for apologies, friend. I got taken by surprise when life smacked me in a manner that forced me to admit reconcile with my less developed functions. It had to happen someday, right? :) I try to maintain a healthy balance between mature and fun, let's call it "functionally responsible." Glad you dig the avatar, somehow it just screamed "ESTP" to me so I had to modify it in MS Paint.


I think you can make decisions based on feelings. ST's feelings are pretty much NF feelings ...just more unconscious. When I use logic...it's in an ST manner.....not NT.
OK, this is going to be interesting for me to read!

Here's why.


ESTP= Se Ti Fe Ni

notice your feelings are backed up with Ni......so therefore your feelings tend to flow in an NFish sort of manner.
Hmmmmmmmm... I'm going to try and make sense of that.
OK, my wife is an INFJ, and her feelings are on her forehead, there is no hiding how she feels about ANYTHING. She could never be a good gambler. BUT - she can use them in choosing a course of action. She does, however, at times get "paralyzed in thought" and will have a GPF (general protection fault, aka "blue screen of death" in MS Windows) while multi-tasking several tasks in series.

Whereas I can articulate how I feel about things, but I have a GPF when I have to sort through/process (multi-task) feeling about several things at once in order to make a resolution (decision) based on them. I can think then execute in real time, all day long.

So maybe the "NF-sih" nature of ESTP feelings is largely similar to those of Idyllics, but since they are developed to a much lesser degree, we recognize them for what they are, but at times don't know what to do with them? Does that make any sense? :confused:
sorry this is all kinda out there.
Hey, no apologies needed! This stuff is "out there" for me because I've chosen to ignore it most of my entire life. I need to make it a hell of a lot less "out there" if I want any insurance on not getting walloped by life that way again! Basically, I've got some work to do it seems. But I'm fine with that, knowing the problem is half the battle of solving it.

Thanks for your thoughts, they are very interesting.
 
#34 ·
Has anyone else (ESTP or maybe other Thinking types) had to deal with such things?

If so, is it not a real pain in the ass?!

It is the one time in the past two years of me having some understanding of MBTI that I found a definitive weakness in being an ESTP. All other aspects of my implementation of the type I am totally at peace with, but this one sucks!
Yeah, I deal with this alot on smaller issues. Especially when somebody asks me how I feel. It kinda freezes me up.

ESTPs are known for delaying action, hoping that a solution to a problem will appear after awhile and can be taken advantage of.

It is like procrastanation with purpose. Sometimes it works, many times it does not
Haha, YES! :crazy: I do that all the time and it pretty much drains the ESTPness out of me later when I become caught under the avalanche of problems that bury me because of my prior (but purposeful) inaction.
 
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