[Enneagram Type 4] 4w3 or 4w5?

4w3 or 4w5?

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This is a discussion on 4w3 or 4w5? within the Heart Triad - Types 2,3,4 forums, part of the Enneagram Personality Theory Forum category; Hey all, I was wondering if I could get some input on whether I'm 4w3 or 4w5. The part that ...

  1. #1
    Unknown

    4w3 or 4w5?

    Hey all, I was wondering if I could get some input on whether I'm 4w3 or 4w5. The part that resonates with me the most about 4w3 is that they're passionate and competitive. I used to think that I really wasn't competitive, but then I realized that I acted outwardly chill because I would get so competitive when I indulged myself that it became unhealthy. I also really relate to the fact that 4w3s can have somewhat of a fluid personality. I'm pretty good at figuring out what will or won't fly in a group, and then hiding what might make me stand out as weird. I guess I'm not very good at actively becoming another person, but I'm self-aware enough to tone it down when I'm around people whom I sense won't appreciate my quirks as much. I hate the fact that I can't be myself, though, and I think it really negatively impacts me when I'm not doing something consistent with what I love. I just feel unsettled and upset with myself and the world.

    The part about the 4w5 that appeals to me the most is how introspective and intellectual they are. I love abstract theories, and I spend a lot of time reading history and philosophy. If I could, I would spend all my time having abstract debates or discussing hypothetical and philosophical situations. I think a lot about what is meaningful in the world, and how that relates to me. I don't think I'm as dark as 4w5s are described to be, though -- I am going through a rough patch right now, but for the most part I appreciate beauty and optimism, even though I also would agree that there's profound beauty to sadness.

    If it matters at all, I think that my MBTI is INFP, though the bit about an INTP needing to find logic in the world really resonates with me as well.

    Thanks for your help!
    Fern thanked this post.



  2. #2
    Type 6w7


    Hello there!

    I'm no expert on this and if anyone else corrects me, I won't be offended...lol.

    However, I do have some decent experience with enneagram and have made some major discoveries with myself...and revelations about it.

    I personally think if people don't make deep connections with themselves about enneagram, it's a bit pointless. MBTI is sort of there already, and of course needs personal interpretation, but I think the level on which you need to do with enneagram is even greater.

    The thing is with these sorts of things, you need a better understanding of them before you can judge! And surface details don't really matter too much. You can't decide who you are based on a description, and I think most people have had difficulties with being conflicted because of something they resonate or don't resonate with. The big picture matters more, though. Too often, we get caught up in details and want to rush things. I mean my friends and I didn't even think we were doing it. But we were.

    But to get onto my point...

    You really need to make deeper connections! Just because you're competitive doesn't mean you can't be a 4w5, and just because you're an intellectual/introspective doesn't mean you can't be a 4w3. I'd suggest reading up on what type 3 and type 5 actually mean. But really. One of my friends frequently likes to debate and abstract theories (and is introspective), but it doesn't make her a 5.

    You just have to get down to the basics, honestly, and what make you you. I know I'm a 4w3 because of how ridiculously driven I am toward success. I am individualist of course, but I direct mine toward accomplishment. And I fear failure like a lot. 3s can often validate their worth by their success. And that is true for me. As much as I know I'm a great person and whatnot, success is literally something I cling to. Not obsessively, but I actively seek it (and this shows in my academic pursuits and my valedictorian hopes).

    It's not about these descriptions that say that they're competitive or whatever. Sure, it can come with being a 3...but you're weighting it extremely high when really you just have to understand what it truly means. The fears of a 3, the desires of a 3. What makes a 3 a 3.

    And the same goes for a 5.

    You have to let go of these images you have of 4w3s and 4w5s and what you WANT to be, and see what you really are. You can't gravitate toward something just because you feel one certain something applies to you and reject something because something doesn't fit quite right. 5s tend to be cerebral and withdraw for their security (to build up knowledge to deal with things that could challenge security), so as a wing, it would complement the 4's tendency to withdraw to protect feelings.

    So in a way, 4w3s have personalities that can clash a bit more and have things that can be a bit contradicting. Like, being withdrawn/assertive, self-conscious/confident, stuck in the past/focused on moving forward (toward success), easily discouraged/do whatever is needed. They're sort of shape-shifting and can be difficult to pin down as just one thing.

    By the way, MBTI doesn't necessarily affect enneagram haha, but there are general patterns...so nothing conclusive can be said from that.

    Google some stuff, look some things up. Get a better understanding.

    This may help:

    https://personalitycafe.com/type-4-fo...n-4w3-4w5.html

    Sorry that I may have seemed a bit like I was ranting, or exasperated . But people really need to see that there's more than what meets the eye concerning personality tests. Hopefully you find this helpful! Again, not trying to be rude at all...This is literally what I would say to my friends concerning this haha.

  3. #3
    Unknown

    Yeah, I'm definitely trying to learn more -- part of why I posted this thread was to try to get a bit more insight into the nuances of the different wings in the context of how I'm interpreting them. What I posted above was more a quick summary of why I feel drawn to each particular wing. Taking the deeper connections in account, I still really feel like I could be either 4w3 or 4w5. I also am driven towards success -- I've always wanted to be the person with the highest score, the fastest time, etc. etc., even if I kept that within myself and didn't make a scene of it. It takes a chunk out of my happiness every time I come in second. I would also say that I feel like there are dichotomies inherent in my personality (I love public speaking, but get embarrassed being the center of attention; I can be extremely extroverted with some people but a fly on the wall with others, etc.). But at the same time, the ways that a 4w5 conceives of him or herself makes more sense to me. I am insecure about a lot of my interests, and also how I physically look, but I don't care enough to invest effort into changing it (getting up earlier in the morning so I can put on makeup? No thx, nothing is worth another half an hour sleep). I'm drawn to careers in art and academia that a lot of people around me consider useless, but that doesn't make me want to pick up a career in finance or management. It just makes me mad that the world is messed up enough that some people can basically get free money because they're "business-savvy" (whatever that means), while academics and artists can't get a tenth of that so they can become more educated or express themselves.

    So I guess what I really feel like I need help with is figuring out where to put the emphasis on my different traits. Is one characteristic that I've highlighted more "quintessentially 4w5 or 4w3," such that exhibiting that trait makes you clearly that subwing? Or maybe the way I'm interpreting something about myself actually stems from another, deeper function underneath that can be attributed to another wing. I realize that a lot of this just requires more reflection and introspection, but I just wanted some outside insight as well. I'm super new to the enneagram, so any advice would be appreciated.
    betweenlaughterandtears thanked this post.

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  5. #4

    Based on the writing samples in this thread, you seem more like a 4w5 than a 4w3...You analyze yourself in a scattered way. You definitely seem like a four though...or someone who really wants to be a 4 (though I think only 4s want to be 4s ;)) When I think of 4w3 I always imagine lady gaga - completely out there, but also approved of by society. The 3 type doesn't just desire to impress others... they DO impress others. The Enneagram describes behavior. Like, do you think you're a charismatic weirdo? Do people look up to you? Are you still able to garner attention/impress others when you sleep-in (do others admire the fact that you seem "okay with yourself" enough to not perform the make-up routine)? In your social context, are understanding abstract theories and being well-read valued? Or are they valued by your parents (super-important)? "Personality Types" by Riso and Hudson doesn't talk that much about 4w3, which is a shame because it's such an interesting combination.
    erinraith thanked this post.

  6. #5
    Type 4w3

    https://personalitycafe.com/type-4-fo...e-4-wings.html

    I found this thread helpful for me in solidifying that I was a 4w5, though I know that I do have some competitiveness within me. I can't say if these descriptions are true for every 4w3 and 4w5, but I really resonate with the 4w5 more than the 4w3 based off these descriptions.

    I relate to the 4w5:

    -being more emotionally heavy vs emotionally spicy (sorry if spicy doesn't make sense). I am also an sp-first, which I learned tends to bury their negative feelings or hold it in versus Sx individuals who are more open.

    -seeming more "delicate" than a 4w3. Just by being on the forum, I feel like many 4w3's seem more outspoken, showing a greater passion and drive behind their writings and thoughts. While 4w5s also show this, it seems like 4w3's show it more.

    -having the experience of needing to look more outward into the world
    . I felt like moving my thoughts to the "outer world" was a great life lesson for me. I use my signature by Viktor Frankl to remind me to look outside. I am guessing that 4w3's may be more apt to look to the outside world more than 4w5s. Meaning that 4w5s might withdraw a lot more. If they are depressed, perhaps they really go into hiding and become a recluse. They don't want to be seen by others. But, I'm just theorizing. I don't really know any 4w3s in real life to compare myself to. For me though, I know that I do go into hiding when really sad and have trouble expressing what I feel (even if I am an Fe-dom).

    -not putting much attention to appearance as a 4w3 might. I don't even feel the need to express my individuality through my clothes. I just want to be comfortable, even if I look really bad. I'm working on this though. I have a type 3 sister and she is often criticizing my look, so I try to put a little more effort. But I naturally wouldn't care one bit. But I don't like anything like too bold or like something that would attract attention. I don't wear all black though as it says in the description, cuz I feel that attracts attention. However, my type 3 sister would probably say I still attract attention because my wardrobe choices are so bad.

    -feeling their "calling" involves less direct contact with people. When I was younger I wanted to be a singer or actress, in the spotlight (like I had a strong 3 wing then), but somehow, the older I get, the less attractive an option that becomes. I feel like I would tire easily and would feel uncomfortable with such attention. I wouldn't mine people liking me and my work, but I just don't really want that "attention" that stars would get. I imagine 4w3s would like that attention more than 4w5s.

    Anyways, I hope that somehow helps.

    (omg. the formatting went strange and i can't fix it. sorry!)
    erinraith thanked this post.

  7. #6
    Unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by anothersillyfour View Post
    Based on the writing samples in this thread, you seem more like a 4w5 than a 4w3...You analyze yourself in a scattered way. You definitely seem like a four though...or someone who really wants to be a 4 (though I think only 4s want to be 4s ;)) When I think of 4w3 I always imagine lady gaga - completely out there, but also approved of by society. The 3 type doesn't just desire to impress others... they DO impress others. The Enneagram describes behavior. Like, do you think you're a charismatic weirdo? Do people look up to you? Are you still able to garner attention/impress others when you sleep-in (do others admire the fact that you seem "okay with yourself" enough to not perform the make-up routine)? In your social context, are understanding abstract theories and being well-read valued? Or are they valued by your parents (super-important)? "Personality Types" by Riso and Hudson doesn't talk that much about 4w3, which is a shame because it's such an interesting combination.
    Thanks! This is exactly the type of insight I was hoping to get - patterns that I might not have picked up on but actually do lean towards one wing or another. The more I think about it, the more I feel like I'm probably a 4w5, even though I definitely do relate to a lot of the 4w3 traits. I really appreciate you guys giving me some reading suggestions, though. It's always good just to learn more.

    I definitely think I'm pretty outgoing/charismatic sometimes, though usually only when I'm in my element. It's effortless when I'm with people I'm comfortable with and doing something I love; other times, it takes a ton of effort. I do think that I'm probably easier to get along with than I give myself credit for -- my boss, for instance, said that I was the one who most valued harmony on our team and has no idea that I actually really despise my job. I guess sometimes I don't realize that my guise works because I'm so focused on keeping everything inside and making sure no one has a clue about what I'm actually feeling. But yeah, abstract theories are my jam, and it really bothers me when people have strong viewpoints that they haven't actually spent enough time researching or thinking about. So I guess that puts me more in the 4w5 camp?

    The one thing I've noticed, and which maybe makes me feel a bit better, is that it seems like the enneagram allows for a little bit more ambiguity than the MBTI does. I see a lot of people who just identify as Type 4 or Type 2, or whatever, as opposed to specifying out exactly which wing they are as well. Is it possible that sometimes people are equally 4w3 or 4w5 (for example), and thus are just better classified as generically "Type 4," or do people always lean one way or another?

  8. #7

    This is what Enneagraminstitute.com says: "Your (dominant) wing is indicated by the higher score of one of the types on either side of your basic type. For example, if you test as a Two, your wing will be One or Three, whichever has the higher score. The second highest overall score on your Enneagram test is not necessarily that of the wing. For instance, a Six's second highest score may be Nine; this does not mean that his or her wing is Nine. (Look at the scores for Five and Seven; the higher is the Six's wing.)
    In all cases, the proportion of the wing to that of the basic type must be taken into consideration. Some people will have a relatively high wing score, in proportion to their basic type. Some will have a moderate, or even a low, proportion of wing to basic type. This consideration is significant for understanding a person's reactions and behavior, particularly if a prediction of his or her performance is being attempted, as in a business setting. Understanding the relative proportion of the wing to the basic type also yields insights into the childhood origins of the person, codependency issues, and potential pathology. " and to find out about basic type-wing proportions you have to buy their book :) I found another website called theenneagraminbusiness.com that says "You may have one wing, two wings, or no wings at all. It is also common to have had one wing be more active when you were younger, and to have had another appear as you matured." Soooo...the proportion between our wing and our base-type says something about our childhood, so maybe iI tested as 4w5 and I vacillate between 4w3 and 4w5 in my head too, but whenever I consider the possibility that I have both wings I always remember how much 4s love identifying themselves as different and unique, and I know the directions for the test warn against "exceptions to the rule." Average 4s' "creativity" (bleh) manifests in us constantly reimagining ourselves based on our hypersensitive emotional reactions to everything, and it's hard to get a clear look at yourself when your self-image keeps metamorphosing. I always turn to the test directions: "For each pair of statements, select the statement that applies to you MOST OF YOUR LIFE. Do not over-analyze the questions, or try to think of 'exceptions to the rule.' Be spontaneous and choose the statement that comes closest to the way you have been most of the time, most of your life." i.e. don't be a 4 :). Yesterday I was totally freaked out because I thought I was a straight-up 3...I'm always paranoid about being a 3 because I'm afraid of not knowing myself. But my fear of being a 3 focused in on some negligible event, probably from the day before, and before I knew it, the feeling made my mental front page and started affecting my behavior. Right now, the belief that I'm a 3 lingers in my head, causing a persistent itch of discontent that I ameliorate by staring at my emotionally stimulating laptop. and I don't feel like cleaning my dirty apartment or doing dishes or showering. So, we become to ourselves whatever we feel we are and feelings are fickle and usually don't make much sense. Long ass comment lol

  9. #8

    Very interesting. I'm a recently self-prescribed 4w5. All the enneagram websites describe the types as what you feel you have to be like to survive, but for me, I feel as if being "different" is just what I am. Since I've been born, I was always unique, and then, perhaps in part high school and all of college, I tried to, more or less, "fit the curve" and became what I am not.

    Having Sensor parents makes it difficult to be "different," but I think it's important to just accept yourself as you are in life to be happy, and most importantly, never to take yourself seriously (see Lady Gaga). I can imagine many (if not, most) 4s taking themselves WAY too seriously and living very difficult lives because of it.

    Also, I think 4w3s are, more or less, artsier and 4w5s more cerebral.

    In a battle of creativity, I'd but my money on the 4w3. In a battle of philosophies and thought, I'd put my money on the 4w5. Since 4s tend to be INFJs, I'd categorize 4w3s as more Fe-Se heavy, and 4w5s as more Ni-Ti heavy, which, in socionics (although INFJs don't really use Ti and Se in socionics), is ironic because the 4w3 would probably have a more "rational" subtype.
    treblemotif thanked this post.

  10. #9
    Type 4w3

    Quote Originally Posted by SharpestNiFe View Post
    Very interesting. I'm a recently self-prescribed 4w5. All the enneagram websites describe the types as what you feel you have to be like to survive, but for me, I feel as if being "different" is just what I am. Since I've been born, I was always unique, and then, perhaps in part high school and all of college, I tried to, more or less, "fit the curve" and became what I am not.

    Having Sensor parents makes it difficult to be "different," but I think it's important to just accept yourself as you are in life to be happy, and most importantly, never to take yourself seriously (see Lady Gaga). I can imagine many (if not, most) 4s taking themselves WAY too seriously and living very difficult lives because of it.

    Also, I think 4w3s are, more or less, artsier and 4w5s more cerebral.

    In a battle of creativity, I'd but my money on the 4w3. In a battle of philosophies and thought, I'd put my money on the 4w5. Since 4s tend to be INFJs, I'd categorize 4w3s as more Fe-Se heavy, and 4w5s as more Ni-Ti heavy, which, in socionics (although INFJs don't really use Ti and Se in socionics), is ironic because the 4w3 would probably have a more "rational" subtype.
    It amused me to read this because it illustrates the basic differences between my 4w5 friend and myself, particularly in conversations we have. He has many "theories", and I get exasperated trying to explain how they'd be nice and make sense, but wouldn't work out in the "real world" because people wouldn't accept it, ect. I think 4w3s have a more outward perception of others and their reactions/ideas on things, verses a 4w5 who is focused on their inner landscape and how it pertains to them. 4s are self-absorbed in general, but 4w3s are always aware of their audience.


     

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