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SJs in Asian culture in comparison to SJs in the West

[INFJ] 
6K views 44 replies 15 participants last post by  rosemaryb 
#1 ·
I assume there are much more Americans here in this community.

This thread is maybe about the difference between "SJs in Asian culture" and in the West.

some people don't believe in temperament theory and/or personality typing, believing that environment is more influential in one's personality but for those of us who think that temperament/personality typing is overlooked more than people realize, what could we say is the striking difference between SJs in an Asian culture versus the West?

Like there are people here who are Americans who have a thing or two to say about SJs (or how much they dislike them, really - I will say most people who come here have a thing to dislike about the SJs maybe because most of the personality types here are N or something) but what more in the Asian culture when they are more traditional and the likes?

Is it fascinating that most people who come here and dislike the SJ temperament (ESTJ/ESFJ especially) are from the West? How about from the Asian culture where people are supposedly more traditional, conservative, family-oriented and is "expected to follow the path" ? You would think that people who have a thing against 'traditional people who don't want to disrupt the status quo' will be coming from an Asian culture so maybe they have learned to rebel or something but alas, if this is a personality type thing, SJs (the stereotypical symbol for tradition and guardianship- and also somehow a symbol of Asian cultures) seem to be universally hated (atleast in personality typing forums I assume)

Discuss what you can say about the matter.
 
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#2 ·
odd this hasn't got any replies yet--I have been wondering myself on a similar topic

I think the bad rap (rep?) comes from not the type but the individual who was nasty by nature. When they're awful, they can reach far I guess compared to some types...
I myself have met very little. Most esjs I've got along with are mild-mannered, and one sensitive one.

As for this topic,the truth is that it may actually be the same. a lot of my Asian acquaintances have similar stories on going against their parents' wishes.
in fact I believe this to be so big or common it is its own film genre lol! seriously. it is very easy to find a movie that centers around this (for example, filipino--perhaps Chinese?).

on a more serious note what about increase of suicide or hikikomori-- whenever these subjects are explained I find they refer to this sort of pressure to fit a box
 
#3 ·
SJs are far more dominant in the East. A thick fog of Si-Fe lies over much of Asia, preventing most other things from emerging from it. Because they are so dominant, SJness is questioned less and accepted more the way you accept that it's air you breathe. It's like questioning and criticising the king in Thailand: it is simply not done, ever.

That said, I'm a European who has lived in Asia but not in America so I'm poorly versed in what SJness looks like in the US. I do know what it looks like in Asia.
 
#4 ·
I imagine SJs in Asian culture are the parents that want their children to become doctors or something like that. I am completely ignorant of asian culture and have no idea what you really mean when you say asian culture, all I know actually are those stereotypes of the parents coming to america and wanting their kid to be a doctor. Or super traditional you must past down the family name type of parents or something. SJ conversatives in america usually side with anything that is traditionally america, guns and apple pie, or something lol. And they can be resistant to change, the much older ones at least, like not getting a smart phone or something like that.

High Si users are probably the types most molded by their environment culture, and past history also. A black SJ in America can be very different from a White SJ in America. Both championing 2 different kind of past histories that their culture was built on. And a southern SJ will be different from a northern SJ. Northern SJ most commonly will be a white collar worker business like kind of city slicker, while southern SJ most commonly would be a farmer or countryman who grown up in a small town. Northern SJ would think southern SJ is some simple minded country boy, southern SJ would think northern SJ is some privileged cityboy who has never done a hard days work in his life. You want to figure out what an SJ is like, look at their history.
 
#5 · (Edited)
SJs do quite well in America in my opinion. This could be because they are the majority (see the link).
https://www.myersbriggs.org/my-mbti...ti-results/how-frequent-is-my-type.htm?bhcp=1

Supposedly America values Extroversion and pragmatism (T) highly. There is a focus on business, boldness in speaking, and organization. I've seen America characterized as valuing characteristics that are ESTJs the most. Our current (place whatever rude words you would like to here) president is likely ESTP.
America is a really big country and there are multiple cultures. Northeastern America has values for a very brash straight forward fast talk-- very SJ in my opinion. The South and Middle America have deep roots in their traditions-- also dominated by SJs. I have actually wondered if my home state is unusually N heavy, or if just my family and my friends were pretty much all N's... actually I think there is a bigger percentile than in most states.. it seems like N and specifically xNTJ was valued in leadership, also ENFP in leadership, but where is a xNTJ not valued? But my home state (Utah) is very different than most of America, especially when it comes to economics and... yeah... actually the attitude is very different.. much more forward thinking, much more value on "out of the box" thinking. The Mountains (especially Colorado, Utah, Arizona...and Wyoming actually have a couple of super intelligent little microcosm towns, surprisingly enough) and the West Coast are just more loose and open-- P and N more valued, but it's not like SJs do poorly. I would say that California especially seems to value perceivers. Washington seems to tolerate a bit more intuitive and perceiving. My current state (in the Pacific Northwest) values ESFJ... it's a very feeling state, they also seem likely to get blind-sided and are stuck in their ways... total ESFJ.

Conversely, American FILM values individualism, spontaneity, extroversion and this influences the way America is perceived by other countries as being very open and individualistic. People talk about there being a very skewed number of ENFPs in Hollywood. Walt Disney was ENFP as well.

Oh... hey @Lord Pixel I see we both thought of Northern SJs, Southern SJs... all the different SJ cultures. lol.

Edit: According to this the only thing that I am right about when it comes to Western states is that Utah and Wyoming are VERY VERY different from the other states. Check it out:https://www.16personalities.com/articles/personality-geography-of-the-united-states
 
#8 · (Edited)
Yea I think Cali is very P and the west is probably more NP. I think Oregon is full blown NP lol. Portland is NP captial lol.

Walt being an ENFP makes alot of sense and it still seems to be the spirit of his films even today seeing how many of those Disney princesses are ENFP lol. "I want to go on an adventure to some distant land." And she eventually goes on impulse lol. It makes sense because an ENFP character is very inprising and that's what the films aim to be.

I also think poster boy for America is ESTJ. ESTJ is like a cardboard cutout of your everyday American values. Like...Buzz Lightyear or something.
 
#7 ·
Since this is an NJ forum, why the SJ related post? ... Just sayin!

As an ENTP I literally cannot do Si. It haunts me. I am amazed by people who can be on time and dot the i's and cross the t's. When I arrive I burst past all their efforts in no time, but they still ding me for not being on time. I think Si's are simply insane. The turtle really DOES NOT win, sorry.
 
#10 · (Edited)
dot the i's and cross the t's
You are blaming your incapability to do this on your type? You have to be kidding me right? Some of you sound downright obsessed with relating every stupid little thing back to typology.

--

Let's see, I spent about 20 years in Asia and 17 years in the West.

There isn't much of a difference in how they function except in the culture and environment itself. The interesting thing to look at here is how the SJ's function within the culture and how they influence it - but given that Jung's 8 types are all present at likely the same levels, you have pretty much similar differences.

The thing I've noticed about SP's and NF's in Asian cultures is that they tend to create and live inside protective bubbles where a lot of their misunderstood and underappreciated behaviors are exhibited within protective circles amongst each other .. and their influence society by and large is more covert than obvious. Most simply leave the most oppressive regions. I have no quips about claiming that Asian SJ's are (especially around South Asia and The Middle East) are stuck somewhere 100-500 years behind western societies. Even most of the most progressive minded South Asians (the civil society as we like to call it) openly admit and lament this.

My view on this is that it was not the Pakistani SJ's that did this, but that this is the legacy of the British Raj which efed Pakistan and India up the arse and just stole everything they could and left it behind to fend for itself .. while sucking the most intelligent minds from that region into their society.

The way the processes themselves work doesn't change. The differences are not in personality, but in how the societies themselves function. All you need to do is examine the differences in cultures themselves in order to relate it back to the process.
 
#26 ·
I'm starting to get convinced more and more that my mother is likely INTJ and not INFJ because if there was even a lick of Fe in that woman, she would not be so out of place in Pakistan. Fe would have allowed her to belong to social groups to some level even if Ni would have been the great isolater but she never did. The Ni-Te combo means that in her retirement from work all she has done is written books, engage in self-created research projects and only talk to her immediate family .. at most getting out to hang out with sisters :thinking:
 
#30 · (Edited)
I read before someone that says that Karl Marx and Ayn Rand are both INTJs but both couldn't be more different from each other.

I think that may be one of the parallel examples of, say, an INTJ from Asia and an INTJ who lives in the West and how they couldn't be more different from each other despite sharing the same personality type.
 
#32 ·
Ooh!!!!!!! SJs in eastern culture! I can tell you first hand.

First, I'm living in Thailand. So, veeery eastern.

There are 3 SJs in my family (2 Estjs and 1 Esfj) And many SJs acquaintances.

Of all characteristics I can find some being the same of them.

- Place, extreme importance to societal norms (which include excessive system of seniority--no child, or younger person can talk back to seniors or parents, no matter WHAT! or that some works are consider very respectful, which in fact such old sayings) my Estj grandma is a lot chiller out on this things (maybe because she is old?) But my Estj dad and Esfj mum are hyped about these things. Which links to the next.

- They are (except my grandma) very strict about orders they issues. And hating when anyone below them (seniority sense) asking for logic behind the decisions. And will take this offensively.
They love to issue order because they can, and anyone below their status have to follow without asking, talking back. And take the questioning or insubordination very offensively (which I tend to clash with them about)

- They are hyped about seniority in workplace. While I (Enfp) don't mind at all if someone a lot younger than me retort in my face about me doing silly mistakes, most SJs I've met (whether they are close or distant) tend to take this deeply as their mode of thinking is a bit 'seniors always right' from mild to extreme degree. Their are one culture of us about 'Wai' which means showing respect to other individual (like monks, parents or some very respectful ones) And, you see, in my university, the first years are expected to 'wai' the second years! Which is something I consider idiotic. Respect must be earned!!! But for SJs they think, it's what everybody's expected to do! So submit!

For other intuitive or SPs seniors I met though, they don't mind this. So I think out of all, SJs tend to take this tradition the most seriously. And I'm not generalizing.

So I think all SJs in any corner of the world are similar. But for asian social system, the importance of respect and absolute obedience is a lot stronger than that of western world. And high Si tend to take this things deeply. I think our system is less flexible for ideas and debating to grow. Because of fearing to offend someone.

If you've met any one from my country you can see that they are either humble or totally shy in asserting themselves. (eg. public speaking, speak out for injustices)

In fact, I like the western system more than mine. It allows growth and constant improvement.
 
#36 ·
#35 ·
Well, it makes sense that Northern Europe would encourage more exploration of the self and the surroundings. The kind of people that originally populated those areas were explorers themselves. They were the ones that decided to brave some of the harshest climates in the world and settle ... and if there's genetic component to functions, it would make sense that those societies would still be more deviated towards SP/NT/NF "culture" than an SJ one.
 
#37 · (Edited)
I want to clarify something that might help. Prevalence of type and a culture’s preference/value for a function or trait are 2 different things.

When I was taught MBTI about 18 years ago by a certified MBTI person she spoke about prevalence of type and then about American cultural preferences and this does also tie into the question of nature versus nurture.

She said America highly valued extroversion and this can sometimes be seen in people’s income, however the population is only about 50% E , meaning 50% of the population feels pressure towards being more extroverted. Truthfully a INTP friended ours was fired a month ago and the main reason was “not social enough.” Very upsetting/ very disappointing— luckily his attitude was to roll with the change.

She said before college S learning style was more preferred and that in college N learning style is more preferred in America.

She said F is generally more preferred in females in American culture and T in males, culturally. However, the MBTI says there are more feelers.

J is preferred and the most prevel in America mostly. Punctuality, organization, etc. P is a bit less preferred and a bit less prevalent— however Hollywood preaches NFP values mostly.

She said that it was the opinion (in the year 2000) of MBTI that E/I and J/P were in-born traits, and that S/N F/T were learned.

However... compared to Asia, America is considered a much more individualistic culture and somehow America values more tolerance and individualism. There are always going to be humans feeling pressure to be different and who have to adapt. , SJs may feel more pressure to be a bit more P, etc. or just the teaching of tolerance and understand is what can start to be valued— but that’s individualism. I think the strength of a culture’s preference for certain traits can mean a lot of pressure for those who are different. I heard an American ENFP journalist talk about a restaurant refusing to give her sugar for her tea in Japan because “That’s not how you drink green tea.” And of course that’s the tip of the iceberg and I don’t know Asia. The strength of those cultural preferences can make it more like tyranny, for sure. Unless you adopt values for collectivity that make it feel easier to conform... really tough for some MBTI like Fi dominants and auxiliary.

I have even more questions about prevalence and environment versus in-born after seeing the type prevalence map (in my last post) and noting that Utah is radically different than the rest of America (I thought it was radically different personally, but I thought it was for N instead of F reasons).

@Belledonna what do you think of this (above)? I wonder how you developed ENFP in your surroundings? And by the way, I was about to mention you in. I think I talked too much. ><
 
#39 · (Edited)
Asia is a big place and there's no such thing as Asian culture.

Let's all firstly agree that south Asia is best Asia. Why? Because I said so, that's why! Because that's where I'm from, and you know if a place birthed me then by default it has to be the best!

South Asia is a remarkably diverse place, it's surpassed only by Africa for the number of different cultures coexisting in one geographical region. Many of the cultures are almost entirely alien to one another. This was reinforced firmly to me by my parents this week, in their deeply hostile anti-northern rhetoric following a difficult insurance claim situation with a Punjabi man. All I had to do was mention his surname, and boom. My dad goes "these people, it's nothing but a torrent of lies from them every time they open their mouths. Always remember that when you deal with northeners, and with people surnamed *that guy's name*." My mum later remarked "the only thing they care about is money; they cheat and steal and never put in honest hard work, unlike us from the south."

And do you know something, they're not far off the truth. Yes, their racism in assuming they are all a certain way is untrue and unfair. And I certainly disagree that certain people are born liars and thieves just because of their surname and ethnicity. But there is an enormous cultural chasm seperating south-south Asia with north-south Asia. Their SJs are ruthless and relentless when it comes to accumulating wealth and power. The philosophy of northern SJs is deeply invested in concepts like honour and status; they place inordinate value on physical things, on possessions, on acquiring more and greater possessions than ever before. They are all about flash, about flaunting their wealth, power and status. In the context of historical south Asian culture, their present day values are 100% alien. They are the WASPS of south Asia; it is as though centuries of getting fucked by the British made these would-be conquerors adopt the mindset of those who conquered them. Individual mavericks are tolerated, even encouraged, as long as that maverick can make good on his opportunity and delivers the cherished glories of capitalism to his house.

Conversely in the south, our SJs are very old school.They're not aggressively acquisitive, they're cautious and reserved and don't like to spend money on flashy things. Even if they are wealthy, they dislike showing off - if you've got it, hide it, don't parade around with it. They value hard work and honesty much more so than climbing the socioeconomic ladder. Substance matters far more than appearance. Honour and status don't come from possessions and wealth, they come from being intellectually cultivated, pious and observant of religion and tradition, honest and hard working. Our SJs are more than a hundred years behind the times compared with northern SJs, who assimilate and thrive in the brutal western world far easier than do southern SJs. Our SJs have this... naivety I guess? Innocence may be a better word for it than naive. They're innocent and in the cut-throat 21st century it marks them out as ripe for exploitation.
 
#41 ·
I’m from east asia and grew up in a multicultural setting. I suppose the east asian culture values collectivism, introversion, duty, respect and traditions, while ocidentals value extroversion, individuality. So For example ISTJs probably would do great in asian culture. Even so extroversion is still preferred by many. They tend to succeed better in social settings and networking, which is preferred in business, management and leadership positions. So maybe introversion is more “forgiven” in east asia, but extroversion still wins in many situations.

I’m not sure why SJs would be hated in ocidental countries, the only thing I can think of is that ocidentals might find ISxx boring? Or anyone who is too introverted.
Types might have compatibility issues but hate sounds intolerant. I suppose hate towards any type shows lack of maturity and tolerance for different people. Certainly every type can show positive and negative sides but this is more about maturity and goodness than because we are a certain type.
 
#43 ·
I’m not sure why SJs would be hated in ocidental countries, the only thing I can think of is that ocidentals might find ISxx boring? Or anyone who is too introverted.
Types might have compatibility issues but hate sounds intolerant. I suppose hate towards any type shows lack of maturity and tolerance for different people. Certainly every type can show positive and negative sides but this is more about maturity and goodness than because we are a certain type.
The west glorifies the idealism of the youth, the east the wisdom of old age, and maturity is something that comes with age, so that should be no surprise. Both have their place, but idiosyncracies develop from geographical and climatic differences through gene-cultural coevolution.
 
#42 ·
First, let me say that Si truly isn't "tradition" in the most common conservative sense, although it can definitely lead to that.
Si is all about personal tradition - what is familiar and comfortable to the individual.
So if their early life was conservative AND positive, then they are likely to hold firmly to that. If it was a gypsy/hippy life and positive, then they're likely to hold firmly to that.
If life in those terms was experienced as negative, they're likely to blaze an entirely new path, and make that new lifestyle their own personal "tradition" once they find comfort in it.

In society they function as placeholders, for whatever that culture's "normal" has tended to be. Yet through the generations, they do change, albeit not at a normal rate, and often because they're replaced with "newer models" of the same type.


My mom is an ISFJ who came to America from Australia in 1984, when she was 29. It's not exactly as you asked with Asian vs Western, but I thought it might highlight some regional differences.
In the last 34 years, she has changed to the point that going home again was difficult. She visited her aging parents for a year long stay a while back, and she was dreadfully unhappy.

In a nutshell, American culture prizes the happiness of the individual more so than her homeland. Over there it reads as "spoiled", and I really can't quibble with that - we are so very spoiled. But it's good!

Just one example of the culture difference is the arena of Service.
In Australia, waitstaff work for the establishment and their duty is to it. They don't receive tips, and the idea is to get the food on the table efficiently and be done. It almost feels like a favor is being done for you when they bring the food out.

In America, waitstaff work for each customer that comes in, and their duty is to satisfy the patron as if they were a lord or lady of old. That's where tips come in, as the noble one has the opportunity to make a decree on the honor or dishonor their temporary servant has earned.
Much of American culture is about elevating the individual to a loftier status, if only for a brief while. Whether that be in dining, expensive purchases, entertainment, ect.

Freshly arrived in San Francisco, my poor mom's mind was blown when the waiters would ask her the questions:
"Soup or Salad?"
"Cesear, House, Garden, Chef...?"
"Ranch, Blue Cheese, Italian, Thousand Island...?"
"Baked Potato, Mashed Potato, French Fries, Hashbrowns...?"
and on it goes. The better the restaurant, the more questions you are asked. The emphasis being on having your meal exactly the way you want it.

Whereas in an Aussie restaurant? You get what's on the menu, exactly. If it says it comes with peas, you get peas. Salad comes w/ Blue Cheese dressing? That's what you're eating. Asking for a change is seen as rude, and offensive to the chef / owner that wrote the menu.
When my mom went back, she had become so used to U.S. restaurants that she couldn't believe when a waitress exclaimed in shock and stormed off in a huff when she asked for the chef to cook her steak medium-well rather than the menu's offering of medium-rare. And then the staff were giving her the stink eye for the rest of the evening!

I visited Aus one time when I was 11. My grandparents came to hate me. Not because I ever acted out, broke rules, or even cried in front of them... but because I politely didn't eat exactly what they made exactly the way they made it. I was a picky eater, so my mom ran interference in the kitchen for me, and my grandmother was offended no end. After that visit, they stopped including my name in the opening line in letters to the family.

Of course I can't speak for all of Australia, lol, it's pretty diverse... but the prevalent attitude is a bit different to here.
The funny thing to me is how much my Si-dom mother incorporated U.S. customs into her internal model. It took a while though.

In my experience, when it comes to SJs embracing change, the key is to "Soft" them into it. When my mother's past training leaks through with some excessively stuffy precept, I remind her of nice things she enjoys and ask "well don't you want others to get to experience that too?"... this is the only way that works for her.
 
#44 ·
Great topic!
 
#45 ·
Asian cultures are definitely more collectivistic (interdependence, family-oriented, group decision, avoid direct expressions or eye contacts) and Western countries are more individualisistic (independence, individual values, personal choice, prefer eyecontact)!
 
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