[INFJ] Something no one here talks about...

Something no one here talks about...

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This is a discussion on Something no one here talks about... within the INFJ Forum - The Protectors forums, part of the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers category; Have a quick read and for some it will make a lot of sense while for others who only see ...

  1. #1

    Something no one here talks about...

    Have a quick read and for some it will make a lot of sense while for others who only see four functions then ignore the rest it will be an annoyance.

    https://www.stellarmaze.com/fi-in-infjs/



  2. #2
    INFJ - The Protectors

    Admittedly I'm not too trusting of a site arguing the validity of astrology...less so when they then try to hide that argument in big science words and a superiority complex. Classic theory would suggest he's mistyped to be making this argument to begin with as well. <shrug>

    As far as the topic goes, though, this reflects my opinion on the cognitive functions: Cognitive Functions and Type Dynamics - A Failed Theory? | Oddly Developed Types I don't doubt what the writer is observing, but I do doubt his explanation (and MBTI/classic cognitive functions theory's explanation too) for what's actually going on under the hood.

  3. #3

    Quote Originally Posted by Aizar View Post
    I don't doubt what the writer is observing, but I do doubt his explanation (and MBTI/classic cognitive functions theory's explanation too) for what's actually going on under the hood.
    My exact thought. The pattern exists, but the explanation is likely wrong.
    Aizar thanked this post.

  4. #4

    I think he's right on the money.
    mistakenforstranger and INForJoking thanked this post.

  5. #5
    INFJ - The Protectors

    Yep, I've seen his articles before and he speaks to a fundamental part of INFJs that isn't usually discussed anywhere else. I think he does take much of his understanding from INFJ 4s, though, so perhaps not all INFJs would relate.

    My exact thought. The pattern exists, but the explanation is likely wrong.
    What would be the explanation, @Marvin the Dendroid ? I think he could just be describing a severe Ni-Ti loop (and depression). I'm also not one for the 8-function model.

  6. #6

    Quote Originally Posted by mistakenforstranger View Post
    What would be the explanation, @Marvin the Dendroid ? I think he could just be describing a severe Ni-Ti loop (and depression). I'm also not one for the 8-function model.
    I'll have to think about that. My gut reaction was "this is stretched well beyond the believable", looking for explanations in places that fit an existing pattern only because you need everything to fit that pattern even when it doesn't.

    He's right when he says INFJs need to express themselves via Fe to do better. Of course, it's not as simple as just doing it, there's always a reason for your Fe shutting down in the first place. Whether it's burn-out or depression or something else, you can't just Fe your way out of it. You need to fix what's broken. Get out of that abusive relationship, or quit that soul-destroying job, or cut all ties to that narcissistic parent... Whatever it is. And get into a good place where time & rest will allow you to heal.

    I'm undecided on the 8 function model, I just don't feel that bringing Fi into this particular situation explains anything. Sounds to me like he's trying to fit his observations into a mental model he has even when those observations don't necessarily fit. Overreliance on Ni+Ti with a depressed Fe could be one explanation. It could also be something entirely outside of Jungian concepts. I'll have to think about it.

  7. #7

    I don’t know what the man has to say about Astrology, which I think is nonsense— but what he is saying about SOME Fi in INFJs has to be correct, isn’t it? Otherwise INFJs would almost have no mood of their own, you’d only channel everyone around you. Except Fi in no way plays as big a part as he is saying, or else it would manifest more strongly and differently. Very differently.

    So if you just read a bunch of neuroscience along with getting a base-line from Dario Nardi’s work then you know that all of us can develop functions— I see Ni, Ne, Si and Se as coordinating learning in different ways and Fi, Ti, Te and Fe as just using different decision making areas of the brain.. I was reading some studies a while back that basically taught 2 different kinds of empathy to their participants which showed up in different parts of the brain and the group studying it were drawing conclusions of which type of empathy was better. The way it was being taught? #1. “Respond sympathetically to what you are hearing and seeing as someone’s emotions. #2. Imagine what you yourself would feel if this story happened to you. The different corresponding parts of the brain lit up, telling them that they had indeed taught subjects 2 different ways to empathize. They concluded #1 was the best kind of empathy because afterwards people “acted more extroverted” and “all parties, both the sympathizer and the person telling the story reported feeling better afterwards.” So I was quite horrified at the conclusion because in MBTI functions are preached as “not better, just different”. They concluded with everyone should practice #1 more.
    This is alarming to me and I immediately wrote a book in my head about a distopia where everyone is forced to take pills that make them more ESTJ-like. We NEED the MBTI attitude to move into neuroscience, in my opinion. I want other names to quote as well as Nardi’s.

    Anyway what I’m saying is... we do use all functions.

    Dario Nardi recently said that An ESTJ who studied shamanism went full blown INFJ on his screen when the man was doing something shamanic.

    And Dario (INTJ) said also that when he is meditating his brain scan looks ISFP..... INFJs would likely look ISTP in meditation is my guess. Dario says he has to meditate with eyes open, otherwise too easy to go into an Ni-trip, btw.

    I don’t see why Brothers Karamazov wouldn’t be about Fi gone wrong and likely Ni-Ti out of control with a neglect or negative influence with Fe. Sure, it’s just you can’t blame it all on one function I don’t think. If his Fi went bad wouldn’t Fe save him? No, because Ti said this was all reasonable and Ni planned the whole thing or even gave him the plan...Etc etc etc....

    No wonder there are a lot of aggressive ESTJs...with Fi suppressed and Te okay with killing in the military, let’s say... that’s a recipe for yikes. I’d say we need to encourage up and coming ESTJ shaman. :-)
    Last edited by Llyralen; 05-30-2019 at 03:11 PM.
    Sour Roses and Yoda thanked this post.

  8. #8
    INFJ - The Protectors

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvin the Dendroid View Post
    I'll have to think about that. My gut reaction was "this is stretched well beyond the believable", looking for explanations in places that fit an existing pattern only because you need everything to fit that pattern even when it doesn't.
    I guess that could be some Ni-Ti at work, or at least Ti. I've wondered if he's an INFJ himself. I don't think he's ever revealed his type, but it wouldn't surprise me.

    He's right when he says INFJs need to express themselves via Fe to do better. Of course, it's not as simple as just doing it, there's always a reason for your Fe shutting down in the first place. Whether it's burn-out or depression or something else, you can't just Fe your way out of it. You need to fix what's broken. Get out of that abusive relationship, or quit that soul-destroying job, or cut all ties to that narcissistic parent... Whatever it is. And get into a good place where time & rest will allow you to heal.
    Very good point. That's actually where Se comes more in handy than Fe, when you act to change!

    I'm undecided on the 8 function model, I just don't feel that bringing Fi into this particular situation explains anything. Sounds to me like he's trying to fit his observations into a mental model he has even when those observations don't necessarily fit. Overreliance on Ni+Ti with a depressed Fe could be one explanation. It could also be something entirely outside of Jungian concepts. I'll have to think about it.
    As far as I can tell, he's mostly taking this idea from Socionics (with his own interpretation of it) where Fi is said to be unconscious (Id) in the INFJ. Fi would be our Demonstrative function: https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/functions/Id
    Marvin the Dendroid and INForJoking thanked this post.

  9. #9

    Quote Originally Posted by The Edwardian Spirit View Post
    Have a quick read and for some it will make a lot of sense while for others who only see four functions then ignore the rest it will be an annoyance.

    https://www.stellarmaze.com/fi-in-infjs/
    I'll talk about it a little bit, but it won't be definitive. Think of those four-letter personality types as words. You may refine them as you like. Words contrast. Sixteen are easier to recognize than dozens of combinations. The suggestion to rate strengths is a possibility but you have to be careful. What if I'm changing? What if I use one trait more when I'm in an agreeable mood or a conscientious mood? You see there are lots of variables. Furthermore is the test reliable and valid?

    Think of a complex system like the weather. We can still talk about weather patterns, can't we? Yet the words we use aren't precise, but they serve an imprecise purpose. Furthermore those functions interact. Feeling for one type isn't the same as feeling for another type. Using auxiliary, tertiary and inferior concepts has more to do with dependency than strength.

    Astrology and science? What science? Predicting something or the behavior of the user?

  10. #10

    Quote Originally Posted by mistakenforstranger View Post
    As far as I can tell, he's mostly taking this idea from Socionics (with his own interpretation of it) where Fi is said to be unconscious (Id) in the INFJ. Fi would be our Demonstrative function: https://www.sociotype.com/socionics/functions/Id
    Sounds like it. I've always found Filatova's work on Socionics speculative beyond reason. Not that MBTI is exact... Socionics just feels even more speculative. We don't have any direct knowledge about cognitive functions, these are all intuitive patterns we feel we can detect ... but ultimately, they may or may not exist. In any case, we do know that our brains are interconnected in all kinds of ways - there isn't an "Fi function" sitting in one corner doing "Fi-things" the way we have fingers. Instead, we have fluid, dynamic, fuzzy patterns.

    It makes some sense to me to talk about "Ni" and "Ti" and "Fe" in an "INFJ" context, but I never kid myself that these are exact representations of what's actually going on in the brain. Even Nardi's EEG studies are fuzzy at best, they don't go particularly deep into the brain and the resolution is very low.

    As for Fi vs. Fe, I don't necessarily think that it makes sense to imagine that the entirety of our emotional experiences would be covered by one or the other, or both even. Emotions have primacy, our interpretation of them is secondary. We all probably share certain emotional layers in our less evolved (reptilian etc.) brains, and things get more differentiated the further out you move, into the more recently added parts of the brain such as the neocortex. Somewere there, we seem to have a preference for experiencing+expressing emotion that to some extent at least is patterned along the Fi/Fe axis.
    mistakenforstranger and Paper Shade thanked this post.


     
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