[INFJ] Intelligence

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This is a discussion on Intelligence within the INFJ Forum - The Protectors forums, part of the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers category; As an INTP, INFJs are the recurrent type that can make me feel intellectually overwhelmed (and even then I am ...

  1. #1
    Unknown

    Intelligence

    As an INTP, INFJs are the recurrent type that can make me feel intellectually overwhelmed (and even then I am left with a sense of underestimation, among other things because you're not the type to bloat).

    I do wonder, however: could it be just a matter of perception -- or your view of things, and how you communicate it, being so different to mine that it contrasts styles rather than tell us something about our capacities to comprehend?


    The following may help in help in this analysis:
    (1) How do you view your own intelligence relative to others?
    (2) And do you think the opposite is true: that INTPs (or any other type) often get the intellectual upper-hand rather than the other way around? If so, that would confirm paragraph 2. But I can't be sure, so I'm asking...
    Songs unsung and AnneM thanked this post.



  2. #2
    INFJ

    Quote Originally Posted by NipNip View Post
    As an INTP, INFJs are the recurrent type that can make me feel intellectually overwhelmed (and even then I am left with a sense of underestimation, among other things because you're not the type to bloat).

    I do wonder, however: could it be just a matter of perception -- or your view of things, and how you communicate it, being so different to mine that it contrasts styles rather than tell us something about our capacities to comprehend?

    The following may help in help in this analysis:
    (1) How do you view your own intelligence relative to others?
    (2) And do you think the opposite is true: that INTPs (or any other type) often get the intellectual upper-hand rather than the other way around? If so, that would confirm paragraph 2. But I can't be sure, so I'm asking...
    What I find interesting about ENTPs (I don't know if INTPs can relate) is they seem to think like particle colliders, they take one concept and smash it with its opposite to see what happens.

    I don't think like that, I'm a triangulator - give me 3 reference points and I can infer everything about whatever the subject matter is depending upon the quality of my reference points:

    I do that by finding someone who's a specifically weighty enough "expert" or "professional" in a particular field and then find out how long it takes for me to be better at something than they are in it:

    - I can't confidently navigate international arbitration law until I've seen how much a well-paid IA lawyer actually knows about the clauses in a piece of emergency Ukrainian LNG legislation she claims to be the authority on.

    - I can't judge how the power structure of an intelligence agency operates until I've met and done asset tracing for someone who was senior within its hierarchy has been able to go off and hawk "geopolitical risk consultancy services" whilst not speaking the language of their supposed area of authority.

    - I can't judge what's an effective way to find programming library resources until I've seen what someone who's literate in LISP thinks of how someone has gone about creating something in C++.

    There's a "feel" to how the topology of that backdrop operates which is as intuitive as how fashion seems "cool" or not - and it helps you get to the information which allows you to extrapolate how one field is similar with another, once you've been able to see how they're structurally similar learning something new is not difficult.

    Can I ask what you as an INTP make of this:

    I understand the mechanism of my own thinking. I know precisely how I know, and my understanding is recursive. I understand the infinite regress of this self-knowing, not by proceeding step by step endlessly, but by apprehending the limit. The nature of recursive cognition is clear to me. A new meaning of the term "self-aware."

    Fiat logos. I know my mind in terms of a language more expressive than any I'd previously imagined. Like God creating order from chaos with an utterance, I make myself anew with this language. It is meta-self-descriptive and self-editing; not only can it describe thought, it can describe and modify its own operations as well, at all levels. What Gödel would have given to see this language, where modifying a statement causes the entire grammar to be adjusted.


    Does that state of mind sound appealing to you?

    1200-630-florence-eye.jpg

  3. #3
    Unknown

    Quote Originally Posted by Six View Post
    What I find interesting about ENTPs (I don't know if INTPs can relate) is they seem to think like particle colliders, they take one concept and smash it with its opposite to see what happens.

    I don't think like that, I'm a triangulator - give me 3 reference points and I can infer everything about whatever the subject matter is depending upon the quality of my reference points:

    I do that by finding someone who's a specifically weighty enough "expert" or "professional" in a particular field and then find out how long it takes for me to be better at something than they are in it:

    - I can't confidently navigate international arbitration law until I've seen how much a well-paid IA lawyer actually knows about the clauses in a piece of emergency Ukrainian LNG legislation she claims to be the authority on.

    - I can't judge how the power structure of an intelligence agency operates until I've met and done asset tracing for someone who was senior within its hierarchy has been able to go off and hawk "geopolitical risk consultancy services" whilst not speaking the language of their supposed area of authority.

    - I can't judge what's an effective way to find programming library resources until I've seen what someone who's literate in LISP thinks of how someone has gone about creating something in C++.

    There's a "feel" to how the topology of that backdrop operates which is as intuitive as how fashion seems "cool" or not - and it helps you get to the information which allows you to extrapolate how one field is similar with another, once you've been able to see how they're structurally similar learning something new is not difficult.
    I don't think I rely on role models as much. Yes, "experts". But that doesn't mean they can't have been making the same mistake over and over an the existing system.
    I prefer to look at the rules and find out what happens when I change them. Call it 'pioneering'. 'Experting' is too repetitive to my taste (and also creates blind-spots).

    But we are similar in that we don't draw strong conclusions cheaply.

    Can I ask what you as an INTP make of this:

    I understand the mechanism of my own thinking. I know precisely how I know, and my understanding is recursive. I understand the infinite regress of this self-knowing, not by proceeding step by step endlessly, but by apprehending the limit. The nature of recursive cognition is clear to me. A new meaning of the term "self-aware."

    Fiat logos. I know my mind in terms of a language more expressive than any I'd previously imagined. Like God creating order from chaos with an utterance, I make myself anew with this language. It is meta-self-descriptive and self-editing; not only can it describe thought, it can describe and modify its own operations as well, at all levels. What Gödel would have given to see this language, where modifying a statement causes the entire grammar to be adjusted.


    Does that state of mind sound appealing to you?
    Pfffhm-well. Yes, in that, at any time, I can grab a pencil and map out my thinking in simple language/schemes/figures. It's all very clear to me + can be made clear to others.
    But No to the fake omniscient feel to it... I mean, first of all, cognition is a giant mystery to anyone, so why pretend to understand? And also: intuition is everywhere. Intuition is what hands you these thoughts in the first place; plus could prove massively useful once you learn to turn your attention to it. So I'm probably a touch superstitious in that sense.
    AnneM thanked this post.

  4. #4

    "INFJ's" (well...let's call them this way) on this forum are already think that they are some extremely deep well of universal brightness, so... maybe, this isn't the very post their self image needed.
    AnneM and Yoda thanked this post.

  5. #5

    Only an ENTP can perceive the inner workings of an INFJs mind. (That includes INFJs)

  6. #6

    Quote Originally Posted by NipNip View Post
    As an INTP, INFJs are the recurrent type that can make me feel intellectually overwhelmed (and even then I am left with a sense of underestimation, among other things because you're not the type to bloat).

    I do wonder, however: could it be just a matter of perception -- or your view of things, and how you communicate it, being so different to mine that it contrasts styles rather than tell us something about our capacities to comprehend?


    The following may help in help in this analysis:
    (1) How do you view your own intelligence relative to others?
    (2) And do you think the opposite is true: that INTPs (or any other type) often get the intellectual upper-hand rather than the other way around? If so, that would confirm paragraph 2. But I can't be sure, so I'm asking...

    This post made my day .

    To answer your questions, it depends what you mean by intelligence, but just personally:

    (1) Both my general knowledge and specific knowledge is shameful and appalling compared to the average person with my level of education. Compared to the average INTP, the size of my knowledge database is like a drop in their ocean. I don't like it, but really I am quite stupid in this way, and I appreciate it when this isn't held against me.

    In terms of ability to learn and do new 'mental' things, I am relatively good compared to the 'average'. Compared to the average INTP, I am probably better at things that don't interest them. In things that interest the INTP, I probably wouldn't even bother trying, except to keep them company sometimes. I find that INTPs can become quite obsessive at things that interest them, which isn't true of me.

    In terms of emotional intelligence, I feel like I understand more than average, but this doesn't necessarily mean that I put my emotional inteligence to good use. Maybe because I don't want to manipulate people, and also because I don't want to feel 'inauthentic'. I observe more than I act on my emotional intelligence. Compared to the average INTP, I am probably better both in my understanding and action.

    In terms of physical activities, like sports, I'm below average. Compared to an average INTP, I am probably also below average or similar.

    (2) I think INTPs do tend to get the upper hand in intellectual conversations, because they only tend to engage in topics they are interested in, and things that interest them they tend to know well. But they also have a tendency to make non-intellectual matters into intellectual matters, and often change the topic of conversation in an annoying way because their low emotional intelligence fails to alert them to the fact that they've changed the topic and also missed the main point of the conversation.


    Anyway, I do love my INTPs.
    AnneM thanked this post.

  7. #7
    INFJ

    Quote Originally Posted by Six View Post

    I do that by finding someone who's a specifically weighty enough "expert" or "professional" in a particular field and then find out how long it takes for me to be better at something than they are in it:

    - I can't confidently navigate international arbitration law until I've seen how much a well-paid IA lawyer actually knows about the clauses in a piece of emergency Ukrainian LNG legislation she claims to be the authority on.

    - I can't judge how the power structure of an intelligence agency operates until I've met and done asset tracing for someone who was senior within its hierarchy has been able to go off and hawk "geopolitical risk consultancy services" whilst not speaking the language of their supposed area of authority.

    - I can't judge what's an effective way to find programming library resources until I've seen what someone who's literate in LISP thinks of how someone has gone about creating something in C++.
    Yeah. Um. I couldn't load a dishwasher until I watched an ESFJ mom friend do it. I know exactly what you're getting at.

  8. #8
    INFJ - The Protectors

    My knowledge is a bit like a jigsaw puzzle or a web. I start with tidbits of information and arrange them in a general framework that seems to fit them all, then I keep adding pieces, sometimes having to move entire bits around, until I get a mostly whole picture. And then the picture shows me yet another thing about the whole issue than the individual pieces do. (That's intuition!)

    1) I tend to think of myself as fairly smart and educated...<shrug>

    2) INTJs tend to run circles around me with their logic, because it's also intuition based, but they can "talk" it a lot better (Te?), and they're often less sensitive to making errors or contemplating stuff others don't really want to think about because of social niceties. Though sometimes I find INTJs do this to such an extreme their "jigsaw" is missing all the human bits and so...are really quite empty and wrong.

    Other INFJs are also like the INTJs to me, where they have their jigsaw/web, but in contrast those can be so full of feelings and self-righteousness and social nicety that they miss all the logic and hard fact that make those webs fall apart when given a reality check, just like an INTJ's does when feels are applied.

    ENTPs often strike me as bright too, often pointing out things I never thought of, but they also tend to be a bit random and think on tangents, to the point they don't seem to put it together in such interwoven webs as I might...but then they're also a lot more flexible and laidback about differing worldviews as a result. If I get a really good fact in that just shatters an INTJ's or INFJ's web, you can sense the existential crisis...ENTPs just kind of go around it like a rock in a stream and keep on going.

    INTPs are like a softer ENTP with a web that can kind of keep on growing and fluctuating...maybe more like a fractal. They seem to work much the same way I do (at least, some people on here have told me I seem very much an INTP myself), but more refined, in a sense, and not with so much emotional noise and NEED to DO SOMETHING that I perceive my own thinking to be. They are also laidback, not so sharp and narrow-minded as (sometimes) an INTJ or INFJ can get, and overall I prefer discussing intellectual subjects with them or the ENTPs more than with other INFJs, because they tend to be kinder, and give me pieces I can fit into my web, without this kind of background insistence I make my web match theirs as an INxJ might (for the INxJ has trouble separating the web down into individual pieces again to talk about, which is what I rely on to process back into my own web).
    NipNip thanked this post.

  9. #9
    INFJ

    INFJ's intellect is just different than INTP. They are more into abstract knowledge of emotions, perceptions, phenomenon while INTPs have more of concrete base factual knowledge which they impressively put at use to expand their imgination and exposure.

    I am an INFJ with a very good INTP friend. And I have always been amazed by my friends intellect. Also I just get lost into abstract thinking trying to entagle the unexplainable things, i forget numbers or specific terms but I remember the theories and effects. On the other hand my INTP friend is a breathing walking encyclopedia, it feels like their is nothing in the world he doesn't know about. It makes me feel I know nothing at all about the world.

    However together when our thinking paths combine, its the way to a deep deep conversation always.

    Sent from my LDN-L21 using Tapatalk
    NipNip thanked this post.

  10. #10

    Quote Originally Posted by NipNip View Post
    As an INTP, INFJs are the recurrent type that can make me feel intellectually overwhelmed (and even then I am left with a sense of underestimation, among other things because you're not the type to bloat).

    I do wonder, however: could it be just a matter of perception -- or your view of things, and how you communicate it, being so different to mine that it contrasts styles rather than tell us something about our capacities to comprehend?


    The following may help in help in this analysis:
    (1) How do you view your own intelligence relative to others?
    (2) And do you think the opposite is true: that INTPs (or any other type) often get the intellectual upper-hand rather than the other way around? If so, that would confirm paragraph 2. But I can't be sure, so I'm asking...
    I'm considered gifted. I don't necessarily consider IQ scores to be the be all end all of intelligence, but they do give an indication to some extent. When I was younger and in my prime, I tested at 145 (near genius, or highly gifted). Today I am whacked out on tranquilizers and my mind is fuzzy and slow -- I don't finish IQ tests in the time allotted. My IQ is at 132 (very superior intelligence, or moderately gifted). In other words, some people are less intelligent than I am, and some people are more intelligent--that's actually how I think of myself.

    I'm pretty much a well rounded renaissance person, with two exceptions: mechanics and electrical. However, I actually think this has to do with my extreme aversion to traditional stereotypical male roles. I've always had men do these things for me (and loved it), so I've never had the necessity to learn.

    I really don't know if this sort of thing is typical of INFJ's in general. I do think that being an N as opposed to an S may take a higher level of intelligence, but that might be a bias on my part.

    To be real honest, and I don't know if this is true, I kind of view INTP's as more creative than INFJ's, and IQ tests don't screen for that. You guys are just different. And wonderful. :) However, because you are T's rather than F's, I do think you come across as the more stereotypical intelligence. It's kind of like comparing the English professor to the mad scientist. :)
    Last edited by AOD III; 01-27-2020 at 12:30 PM.
    NipNip thanked this post.


     

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