[INFJ] Turbulent INFJ or (quiet) Borderline Personality Disorder?

Turbulent INFJ or (quiet) Borderline Personality Disorder?

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This is a discussion on Turbulent INFJ or (quiet) Borderline Personality Disorder? within the INFJ Forum - The Protectors forums, part of the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers category; Hey all, so here's the story (There's a condensed summary at the end || read the bold as well ): ...

  1. #1

    Turbulent INFJ or (quiet) Borderline Personality Disorder?

    Hey all, so here's the story (There's a condensed summary at the end || read the bold as well):

    I'm an INFJ who's come to have a lot of emotional stress centered around my relationships, particularly friendships and romantic interests. I've had a lot of high points and low points related to communicating and relating with friends, especially those I've met online through apps and dating sites. I've noticed that I seek deep intimacy and connection with new friends to the point where the relationship feels one-sided - with me initiating a lot of the conversation and asking the other person intimate questions to continue getting to know them more and more. This happens particularly with INTPs, as I am able to easily build rapport with those types and they often seem to like me. When we connect in meaningful ways (shared identities, interests, etc) or they express their appreciation of some aspect of my personality, vibe, or appearance, I feel so happy. Conversely, if there are periods of time where I don't hear much from them, I feel sad, believing that it is a sign that we're drifting apart as friends. But I hide a lot of my emotions and inner struggles from them for fear of turning them off, making them uncomfortable, or losing their approval. I find myself doing my best to gauge their interests/preferences and tailor my own behavior to what I think they would like. (If they appreciate their friends to be funny, I try to bring out my humorous side often, etc). Also, I have realized that I often subconsciously mirror the people I'm close to, down to using the same acronyms, emojis, and phrases they do when texting. I have one online INTP friend in particular who I have tried, months over, to stop idealizing. I realized I often use their approval of me as external validation to boost my self-worth. I have been trying to scale back the feelings of infatuation I have for them, and stop envisioning a future where we end up together as a couple (since they've expressed that they just cannot do long dist. relationships), but the tendency to idealize them (and us together) still remains. Before I realized I was even doing so, I had been saying things like, "You're the best," and genuinely meaning them literally. Yet, consciously, I know that this person is just another flawed (yet well-meaning) human and being with them isn't going to "complete my life" or anything, but I can't help but see them as near-perfect, and pretty much anything they do is, outwardly, automatically okay with me, even if it makes me sad or uncomfortable or annoyed inside. I often write-off these feelings.

    All this time, I've recognized my issues as those of a "turbulent" INFJ with low-self esteem. After all, INFJs are known to be sensitive, extremely empathetic, idealistic, and intuitively oriented towards people due to Ni-Fe. I felt like it was natural for an INFJ to desire deep insight into others, but at some point I realized that going so deep meant that I become so attached, and overly-invested in them and I don't like it. I'm wary of engaging new people because of it. Previously, I never consciously thought that I feared abandonment, but I think that's the case, as I now feel drained of energy at the thought of connecting with people and I even predict the end of a relationship right as it begins. I met another person online recently, and I actually told her that she was probably going to lose interest in me in a couple of months, but I hope we can hang out a couple times before then. Looking back, I'm surprised the person didn't just ghost me right at that moment; I was waving a red flag, don't you think? (BTW, don't ghost people, it's rude. Be direct and end things.)

    A while ago I came across a short description of Borderline personality disorder and recently my intuition kept bugging me about looking into it further. So I did. After going through multiple different internet sources, I see a lot of similarities between my own issues and the issues described as indicative of the "quiet" BPD sufferer, who acts-in rather than out, tends to see things as strictly all-good or all-bad, has intense emotional ups and downs, and still has a lot of trouble feeling in-control of their own emotions, which can change rapidly.

    Could it be possible that what I'm dealing with is actually BPD, and not related to mbti type? What do you all think?

    TL;DR version:
    • I'm INFJ(-T), having emotional issues with regards to my close friend relationships
    • I often seek deep understanding of others, through constant communication, deep conversations, and mbti research of their type
    • --Although I resent myself for it, I can't help but often:
    • Seek validation/approval from people I fancy or idealize
    • Hide my emotional struggles from friends, esp. Thinking types
    • Subconsciously mirror others communication style, mood, and enthusiasm
    • Idealize romantic interests and demonize (ex) close friends who have "left" me and don't talk to me
    • Feel both positive and negative emotions quite intensely, often as reactions to interactions within my relationships
    • Feel out of control emotionally, and very self-critical of myself because of that
    • Can completely/abruptly reverse a bad mood by re-framing my perceptions of "negative" events as positive ones. That is my go-to "coping method" when I'm in a funk.
    • Internally predict the end of new relationships from the start/ avoid becoming close to others
    • --I actively try to stave off any fear/ sadness of losing relationships, willing myself to accept this normal part of life, yet still struggle with it; I fear/dread loneliness
    • --I sometimes binge-eat or spend money irresponsibly when under stress, which could be related to BPD as well.

    I'm looking for informed opinions here. If you have an understanding of what (quiet) borderline personality disorder is like, let me know if you think this sounds like that, or if I'm just an INFJ who needs to keep working on personal development (which I already do, maybe that's why I'm so late realizing this might be more than I can handle alone). Also, why do you think I'm even having this uncertainty? Why is it that the traits of an "unhealthy" INFJ, as they're often presented, are so similar to symptoms of a personality disorder?
    But yeah - thanks for reading and joining the conversation.

  2. #2

    How old are you?

    ^ None of us like to admit it until we've lived long enough to realize that how long we've lived actually matters.

    I was always told I was way above my years (until Se kicked in on me anyway, LOL), and I certainly felt old. But now that I'm 28... I can see how much I've changed since I was 18. What a few years did for my emotions, and so on.

    Some things just take time and practice to learn what works for you, and how to manage yourself in certain areas.

    I do kinda think that in general, people rush to diagnosis over what amounts to temporary issues.
    Sadness isn't necessarily depression.
    Anger isn't necessarily psychotic.
    Insecurity isn't necessarily a personality disorder.
    And so on.

  3. #3
    INFJ - The Protectors

    Never self-diagnose. BPD is serious disorder. Get a professional's opinion and help.

    That said...

    My five minute armchair analysis is that you're a normal person, albeit with some anxiety and/or depression. As far as the friendship thing goes, remember that it takes two--

    You mentioned you had most trouble with your online friendships, which really stood out to me. It's harder to keep friendships going online because it's a text-only medium, and you're only seeing half (or less) of the person. Consider too that there is a much greater ratio of immature or disordered people online, who you may be coming into contact with, and there is very little that can stop them from projecting themselves into being something they aren't (including kind, caring, and reasonable).

    So it may not be you. It may be them. Put more stock into what people in your real life say about you (family, workplace, school), because they know the "real" you.

  4. #4

    I am not familiar with "quiet" BPD, but I'm familiar with BPD both from personal experience and as a counselor. When I was very young, I was incredibly turbulent. I was originally diagnosed with chronic depression and though they didn't tell me, I suspect they pegged me with bpd. It wasn't until I was in my 40's that I was finally correctly diagnosed with bipolar 2, and correctly medicated, making it possible for me to live a normal, meaningful, and productive life. Now I'm in the other seat in the counselor's office, and I think my past experiences give me an extra insight that my book reading and even my empathy doesn't give me.

    Please don't self diagnose. The only person who can really make a diagnosis is a professional. Even then, a therapist who puts a diagnosis down on for insurance purposes isn't going to pigeon hole you into that label unless they are a very poor therapist indeed. In brief, BPD is a very serious disorder. If you think you have as serious a problem as BPD, then please get yourself to a doctor and get some help. You should not have to suffer like that!

    Do I think that Type can play a part in BPD? Yes. How great a part I don't know. I wouldn't go so far as to say that a turbulant INFJ is the same thing as a BPD. But they CAN be the same thing, just like they can be different. I think those who prefer Feeling are more prone to BPD, and NF's might be especially prone. That's my personal intuition. But other factors, physiological and environmental, also come into play. FWIW None of the others in my DBT group were N's. It would be interesting to have some actual research done and see how it actually pans out.

    Now, let's just talk about your concerns for a moment. You are hurting, and that matters far more than what your label is. In my forties, after I was correctly diagosed, and was specifically told I was NOT BPD, I was put into a group that was given Dialectical Beheavioral Therapy. This therapy was specifically developed for BPD, but is good for all highly sensitive people who tend to get driven by their emotions. It was perhaps the best thing that ever happened for me emotionally. Maybe a four month course in DBT can help you???? At any rate, it wouldn't hurt you to have someone to talk this stuff over with. You have this forum, and you can always find a professional counselor (be careful to find a good one). Please know that you can talk to me as a friend about anything. Us INFJ's gotta help each other.

    Let's look a little at your damaged self esteem, because really you are a valuable person, and you deserve to think well of yourself, despite your flaws. Are you the sort to think that the value and worth of a person must be earned? Or that we are valuable as people simply by being people?

    Tolkien, who is often thought of as being INFJ, was one of the great advocates of the idea that the small insignificant person can turn the great events of time. That there really ISN'T anything as "small and insignificant." He creates a smallish little hobbit, Frodo (also INFJ) who begins the Lord of the Rings as no one really in the backwaters of the Shire, and embarks on the Hero's journey to secretly destroy the One Ring in Mount Doom, thus saving the World, while the Great Ones were distracted with their armies and huge battles.

    Once when I was suicidal, a fellow patient who was a mathematician (archetype, the wise sage disguised as the nobody old man) told me that I was part of an intricate equation called life, that I was one of a infinite number of variables, and if I removed myself from the equation, it would change absolutely everything. I had no idea whose life I had yet to touch, or what small effect I had yet to make that would matter. That conversation changed my entire mentality. (It was HIS moment of significance.)

    You are worth something simply because you are. As CS Lewis said in his Narnian Chronicles: We are Sons of Adam and Daughters of Eve, and that is enough to bow the head of the mightiest King, and enough to lift the head of the lowliest begger.

    Besides, I don't think I need to be an NF to know that if I pressed you, you could tell me things about yourself that make you interesting, good hearted, and worth knowing. You were once a little kid that toddled, and played pretend games, and was fascinated by bugs, and all that. That child is worth fighting for. Don't give up!
    Last edited by AOD III; 10-08-2016 at 08:16 PM.
    Aizar and Fathom thanked this post.

  5. #5

    Thanks, y'all, for your responses. I was actually pretty terrified to come back and check on my post and so I put it off for days. I felt vulnerable, I think. But your responses really helped me put things into perspective, and your words were very kind so thank you again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebecca.M View Post
    How old are you?
    I'm 22. Looking back, I've definitely changed in many ways as I've aged, but I've always been so overly sensitive and attached to other folks that would come and go. I wish I could be more accepting of the ephemeral quality of relationships but I just feel like I lose something valuable when I lose connection with someone, and I want it back. I never forget about any of them. I still constantly think about attempting to track down and re-connect with my first ever best friend, who moved away in 6th grade (12 years ago) and I haven't seen/spoken to for over 10 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aizar View Post
    Never self-diagnose. BPD is serious disorder. Get a professional's opinion and help.

    That said...

    My five minute armchair analysis is that you're a normal person, albeit with some anxiety and/or depression. As far as the friendship thing goes, remember that it takes two--

    You mentioned you had most trouble with your online friendships, which really stood out to me...
    I did plan to see a professional- once I made sure I wasn't just being paranoid/ making a big deal out of a relatively normal experience. My intuition couldn't help but make connections between my experiences and that of BPD - I'd say I wasn't trying to self-diagnose, but just speculate as I often do with everything. I'm a hopeful psychology grad student so I read up on personality/cognitive disorders in my leisure time, and none have been so "triggering" to me, I should say, as BPD. I'm almost certain I'm not depressed, though anxiety? Maybe. Still not sure, but I do know I'm not where I need/want to be, so yes my next step is definitely to see a pro.

    As for online/real life relationships, the difficult thing is that I've often been unable to find such connective and significant relationships offline as I have online. Many of the people in my life (it's just family tbh) don't get me, and we don't click, we just tolerate each other. When I moved back to my (tiny, suburban) hometown early this year, I had no friends at all until I started talking to some folks remotely. And a good number of them are actually in my area - but we don't naturally share any environments and must make plans to meet up in order to ever see each other, etc. But! I am definitely thinking that I should push myself to go out and find clubs/groups in the real world to join. Because I see the points you're making, and maybe the online/distance element could be a source of a lot of struggle. I would love to have friends I can see regularly (at club meetings) and not feel that pressure to stay in contact so much. Now, if I become good friends with someone and they then stop attending meetings/move away...oh no... :(

    Quote Originally Posted by AOD III View Post
    Now, let's just talk about your concerns for a moment. You are hurting, and that matters far more than what your label is. In my forties, after I was correctly diagosed, and was specifically told I was NOT BPD, I was put into a group that was given Dialectical Beheavioral Therapy. This therapy was specifically developed for BPD, but is good for all highly sensitive people who tend to get driven by their emotions. It was perhaps the best thing that ever happened for me emotionally. Maybe a four month course in DBT can help you????
    A few weeks ago, talking to a friend, I was explaining my ideas for the type of therapy that I thought could benefit a lot of folks in society and he suggested I was actually describing DBT. (I can say I was probably projecting my own needs onto society.) But I looked into it and I honestly do think I could benefit from that type of therapy. My current coping methods are guided self-compassion/acceptance meditations and I think a lot of DBT is derived from similar strategies/principles for development. I will definitely look into it. Thanks for the entirety of your response, regarding Tolkien and the rest - it was very encouraging.
    Aizar thanked this post.

  6. #6

    As said above, BPD is very serious so I understand the desire to figure out what you are (just a turbulent INFJ or BPD) but we're not healthcare professionals so it wouldn't be very appropriate for us to say we can diagnose you. But we can still discuss the issue and maybe it might make you feel less alone.

    I skim read that because my eyes can't take that much reading today, but from what I've seen, you do sound like an INFJ-T. I am an INFJ-T also, turbulent to the max. You do not sound like someone with BPD, in my personal opinion.

    It's still a possibility - there's just nothing screaming BPD to me. When I was younger and was going through a huge amount of stress, mainly not understanding why I felt like an alien against my peers, I did consider the possibility of having BPD also - this was before I discovered the MBTI.

    Now that I'm older, I can understand why online healthcare sites would strongly advise against anyone under 18 trying to see if they have it as well as dissuading adults from trying to self-diagnose. When you're desperate for answers as to why you feel the way you do, it's easy to align yourself with criteria that doesn't actually fit i.e. your title, BPD suffers are characteristically not quiet about their displeasure - INFJs are rarely anything else but quiet about it. Sometimes it feels you fit every single one, until a professional tells you what those symptoms actually look like, off the page and in a real person and in every day behaviour.

    I can empathise a lot with how you feel in your relationships. Everything feels one-sided. You feel you're carrying the relationship. You see yourself as taking the relationship more seriously than others do. You're willing to put work into it and they aren't. You make all the compromises. Because INFJs don't rub all of the things we do for others in their face, people don't realise just how many things we put off/or do just for their happiness and comfort. This is pretty typical for an INFJ and I wish I'd known that sooner.

    Especially what you mentioned about INTPs in particular - I understand completely. They make fantastic conversation when you're so used to only having sensors around who never understand your communication style - but on top of that, their inferior Fe is painful to deal with. They can be selfish, stubborn and very self-serving. I noticed a common thread online between INFJ-INTP relationships. INFJs give and give and give until they feel they've been taken advantage of and the INTP only starts to get the gravity of how they're making us sad once we start being confrontational and give ultimatums - who wants it to always come to that in a friendship? That's more stress than what it is worth.

    Again, you mention even telling people straight to their faces, you deliver warnings that eventually they will tire of you - typical INFJ. Once you've been on lots of INFJ forums, you realise everything you've pointed out is not unusual for us. We are very idealistic but we greatly fear being idealised by other types - that's something which sets us a part from the other NFs whose idealism is usually focused on their perception of other individuals. I've said and done the same, thought "How long til this person realises I'm not as great as they think I am?" or "In a few months, they'll realise this is all there is to me, and they will leave." this is different from the characteristic fear of abandonment BPD suffers have because largely there's is exaggerated and they will make a scene about it. We just feel it, we rarely say it. And we are not hot and cold to the extreme like they are. We are cautious and indecisive, there are slight differences but I understand why you see the similarities because side by side, they do look pretty alike.

    I know a lot about BPD because I was just as absorbed as you are now a few years ago, desperately trying to find answers to why I think and feel the way I do. I wasn't proud of my self-diagnosis, who wants to have BPD? But if it answered why I felt the way I did, I was willing to go with it. I saw every criteria of BPD as characteristic as myself - it's almost as though the me from a few years ago wrote your post - I do know how you feel. But from the information you have provided alone, I think you're an INFJ who has realised you feel unfulfilled and used. The information about yourself that you have provided does not suggest BPD to me but if you're that concerned, I would ask a doctor.

    Because we are not that outwardly expressive, others don't see just how seriously we take our friendships and eventually we tire of feeling that way on our own. So the natural conclusion is to push people away and avoid the hurt - but recognising that is who you are will help you better deal with those intense emotions. I only started feeling what 'friendship' is when I started having a larger number of likeminded N types crop up in my life - they're hard to find, but they made me not give up on the idea of relationships anymore.
    Fathom thanked this post.

  7. #7

    You remind me a lot of my dear ENFJ friend. I love her to bits, but we have had a lot of discussions about 'what ideal friendship should be'. She felt she would always initiate things and she is the one trying to speak to me every other day.

    I too like intense relationships, but I speak to my friends a lot less often than she needs to.
    And I know that her need for intensity stems from anxiety to be left alone. She has been left by friends in the past. Therefore she has a hard time trusting that the friends she doesn't speak to for a while (because they are busy) are still her friends. We have very long discussions on this matter and I think it helps her.
    We discuss topics like: if you give something to someone, should the other person then always give something back to you? Since no one will ever give you back exactly what you have given, especially when you tend to give so much, isn't it a dissapointing expectation to hope other persons will give you back what you gave? (the things that are given could also be time, initiation of action, love, attention).
    I try to challenge her perspectives.
    So try to open up to your friends about your feelings now and then. Seeking help with CBT or DBT could also benefit you, it did with me (with other probems).

    As it comes to my friend, I don't think she has borderline personality disorder. I do think she is a bit traumatized in her previous relationships, is very sensitive and has several anxieties as it comes to other people.
    Last edited by Liquidlucy; 10-15-2016 at 04:30 AM.
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  8. #8

    Quote Originally Posted by Fathom View Post
    I still constantly think about attempting to track down and re-connect with my first ever best friend, who moved away in 6th grade (12 years ago) and I haven't seen/spoken to for over 10 years.
    I had a truly close friend from Kindergarten to fifth grade when she moved away. We later reconnected after high school for a while, and she was one of my bridesmaids. But after she divorced she became very distant. A few years ago I found her on Facebook and sent her a message, but got no response. It hurt. I still love her very much. But she has moved on.

    I wasn't trying to self-diagnose, but just speculate as I often do with everything.
    I totally understand. I think this is just a function of intelligence. I always do a lot of research on my own problems, physical, mental, and spiritual, before I see someone. It helps me frame what I have to say, and gives me better questions to ask. But you are right, it's not self diagnosis, or I wouldn't be going to a professional for one.

    I'm so glad that you are going to go into therapy. And I'm glad the DBT suggestion was helpful to you. Good luck, and as a former pathologically turbulent person, if you ever need to vent, you can always talk to me. :)
    Fathom thanked this post.

  9. #9
    INFJ - The Protectors

    Hi @Fathom ,

    I am sorry you are feeling stressed out and turbulent. I know that is a difficult place to be.

    Your question is a really complex one, and I have five or six different thoughts clanging around in my head to answer it.

    First of all, I want to say that many therapists hesitate to give the BPD diagnosis because of the unwarranted stigma it creates. I don't think that having BPD is something to be ashamed of. If you are experiencing BPD-like symptoms, there is treatment for that and it doesn't necessarily have to be lifelong (I'll talk about that in a minute). Unlike other respondents, I would disagree that this always needs to be considered a "serious" disorder, and such language exacerbates stigma against people dealing with mental health issues. Personality disorders are not diseases, they are patterns of behavior that, given enough insight and willpower, can be modified. Although these symptoms are extremely painful and can be serious at times, there is lots of hope for people experiencing BPD-like symptoms. You really do not need to be scared of a diagnosis- it doesn't matter much, either way.

    As a teenager I was extremely emotionally turbulent, incredibly moody, hated myself and felt worthless, developed eating disorders and made risky decisions, had intense up-and-down emotions and codependent relationships, alternatively clung to and screamed at my boyfriend, manipulated my friends and family, and cut myself. I was referred to counselors four times and successfully lied my way out of it each time, convinced they would not understand me and what I was going through (My siblings and I had been abused by a parent for my entire childhood, and our whole family consistently covered up that abuse). I am pretty sure that if I had seen a competent therapist at that time and had worked with them, I would have been given a diagnosis of BPD. As a psychotherapist now, I probably would have given myself that diagnosis.

    But diagnoses are not really black-and-white. They are what your therapist scribbles on a piece of paper so they'll get paid. No one really understands what "Borderline Personality Disorder" refers to, how it works, and whether it is "curable" or not. If you read Judith Herman's "Trauma and Recovery," many of the typical symptoms experienced by survivors of trauma map on perfectly to BPD diagnostic criteria. Conversely, there are high rates of trauma and adverse childhood experiences among people diagnosed as BPD. Diagnosing women (and some men) as "highly emotional" and "highly sensitive" was also a way for T-dominated psychoanalysts to rationalize and marginalize their largely Feeler, female patients for much of the 20th century. So is BPD a highly-sensitive Feeler thing, a product of trauma, or an inherited genetic trait? We professionals can't even agree on who has it and who doesn't. Additionally, personality disorders used to be considered lifelong, but BPD is turning out to be more responsive to certain kinds of therapies than previously understood, including DBT. The definition of BPD itself is dynamic and evolving, so that makes it particularly challenging to answer your question.

    When I was in the midst of my BPD-like symptoms, I discovered my MBTI type was INFJ and it was like a lifeline. I didn't know which part of me were really me, and which were imagined or diseased... I felt like this horrible person. Reading about INFJs, which described the positive part of me and my traits so accurately was the most comforting, validating feeling of my life. People with personality disorders like BPD often don't understand who they are, and in the midst of this chaos, MBTI can be a guideline that helps you love and stay true to yourself. A dear INFP friend of mine who also struggled with BPD-like symptoms also appreciated MBTI for the same reasons. There are some traits that Feelers have that predispose us to BPD - partially because the "BPD" diagnosis was created to categorize people like us. So it's easy to get confused between "unhealthy personality type" versus "personality disorder."

    tl;dr: Ultimately, it doesn't matter whether you are suffering due to some social construct called "BPD" or to being "unbalanced INFJ." What matters is that you are suffering, and you don't currently have all the skills you need to cope with it effectively. Go to a competent therapist and seek help for your symptoms, regardless of whether those symptoms add up to a socially-constructed diagnosis or not. *Dialectical Behavioral Therapy (DBT)* is an amazing therapy for teaching coping skills to people with emotional dysregulation or low distress tolerance, regardless of your diagnosis. Assertiveness Training is great for people with anger or interpersonal problems. Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and Mindfulness-based Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy are also good choices. Personally, practicing Zen meditation has helped me overcome most of my symptoms and achieve balance and emotional resilience.

    I never saw a therapist for my symptoms and 14 years later I've eventually overcome them, but it took many years, much pain, and cost many relationships. Though my mental illness wasn't a lifelong prison, I wish I had trusted someone enough to seek professional help at a younger age to save time and pain. I do not currently meet criteria for BPD and many friends say I am one of the emotionally strongest people they know. So no matter what people say, please do not fear a diagnosis, fear treatment, or fear yourself.
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  10. #10

    Cannot agree with what @Aizar said enough. No self-diagnosing -- it may actually drive you crazy.

    INFJs in particular -- and this may apply to all of the Beta types (xSTPs and xNFJs) -- need to be very careful with the idea of BPD. We have a lot of traits in our personalities which may seem BPDish to outsiders, but the ability to be as chameleon-like and flexible as we are is our personality.

    Most Western societies are dominated by the Fi-mentality. "Be you!" "Find out who you are on the inside and never budge!" -- that kind of thing. INFJs are not quite so static as that, and there's not reason for us to be. Ironically, trying and pushing to "be ourselves" is in fact not being ourselves. When you get into ruts like that, you're limiting your potential. So just relax, go with the flow, and don't let your plasticity freak you out. It's just how you're wired.
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