[INFP] Do you agree with the INFP & ESTJ Duality relationship? - Page 2

Do you agree with the INFP & ESTJ Duality relationship?

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This is a discussion on Do you agree with the INFP & ESTJ Duality relationship? within the INFP Forum - The Idealists forums, part of the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers category; In my honest opinion, I think that which type you are most compatible with is going to come down to ...

  1. #11
    INFP - The Idealists

    In my honest opinion, I think that which type you are most compatible with is going to come down to the overall strength of your preferences and which areas you are most able to, without significant effort, see the other side in and by extension complement each other in.

    For example, my I is by far the strongest preference in my personality, so I personally would also disagree with the other major held belief that ENFJ is the perfect match for an INFP, yet I could see how one who is more middle of the road in the E-I & J-P realms would find an ENFJ a perfect match.
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  2. #12
    INFP

    Thank you for this thread BTW. This topic has been on my mind alot lately.

    First let me frame my response with this , I sounded alot like this when I first started with MBTI socinics and enneagram.
    I was adamant about "HELL NO ESTJ IS NOT FOR ME!" and adamant about breaking the "fate" of this theory and going for INFJ because they sound way better.
    Then I read INFP/INFJ isn't so good all the time, then I read people have parents that are ESTJ/INFP, and their parents have been together for XX years.( most numbers where double digits).
    Then I read about Fi/Fe clashes. And Have tried to emotionally connect with an ESTP and ISFJ and it felt empty.
    I still thought to myself " But I'm a guy, I don't to be with a dominant masculine bossy type woman, bossing me around all day telling me what to do." So I went back to my very first opinion which was "ISFPs are my best match, Fi/Fi all the way baby!"
    Then I met an ESTJ girl my age. Let me tell you something......you might actually feel like a hypocrite the way it might change your mind LOL!

    I had an ESTJ co-worker at my job so I saw her often. We fucking hit it off (and she was hot so like yea that was a factor to).

    -She understood and loved my sense of humor

    -She found her job sort of stressful and boring and even said out loud to me I make her job more fun(as an introvert , I couldn't appreciate that more).

    -Yea she reminded me to do my job, but I mean, that's what I'm supposed to be doing anyway, so it kind of makes you mad and grateful lol.

    -She did not mind my goofy antics as long as it didn't distract her from work.

    -She would smile when she saw me and easily initiated conversation with me.

    -She LOVED when I teased her and it was soooo satisfying to tease this girl who was hot and in a supervisor position. Being teased for her was like a guilty pleasure and I had the key, her little childike emotions would come out.

    Pretty much, what I am trying to say is, being myself around this girl worked so much that she would notice when I was trying to impress her and act better than I was and it would turn her off because she liked who I was so much. I think INFP's actually have powers over ESTJs, maybe not in loudness or assertiveness, but you can touch them in soft spots and completely understand what you did, it's crazy. Only if she didn't have a boyfriend. And as far as emotional connection and all that, her emotions were more childlike and would come out when teased, but when dealing with customers she was completely professional and neutral showing a more benevolent kindness to people instead of a warm personal kindness, sort of like a queen knighting folks lol.


    None of this is a guranteed effect of ESTJ/INFP, BUT I'm just saying there is another side to the coin of "INFP and ESTJs do not get along!"

    I say, yea fucking right. After meeting that girl I realized there were way more ESTJs in my life than I realized and I have had clashes with 2, and they weren't even major unfixable clashes, the clashes are like you getting to know how opposite from you your opposite actually is and you actually have the ability to adjust your behavior to get along with them. I learned that one of my close friends is ESTJ, he is so cliche it's funny lol he's so cliche he makes me feel more interesting by default and he gives pretty good career advice that makes sense to me, unlike ENTJ career advice that sounds like you have to fucking die from a heart attack working so hard. And these are not the only ESTJs I've met, I've spent time and come to know at least 9 ESTJs in my life and some are better than other's but I never got into a serious fight with any. But I also haven't dated any either so there's that but honestly, I slowly started thinking ESTJs are the shit lol. I love how some can flip from serious to fun, that's one of my favorite parts about them, that transition of personality, it's like a surprise that few have access too. Very eager to help someone out, even if they gain no benefit. Very predictable so you can count on them, not too pushy like an ESTP is, and they have a good sense of humor unlike some ENTJs I've met who can have a more dryer and vulgar sense of humor that just doesn't make me laugh.

    I'm like almost bent on getting an ESTJ girlfriend now after my encounter, she'll probably laugh at my jokes and make sure I pay my bills, and I'm slowly becoming more fine with that. (Though previously I was very much against that and super bent on my independence, but I'm learning no one man is an island, and doing things all alone can lead to a lonely life.)

    ESTPs on the other had, fuuuuuuck no! (I grew up with an ESTP cousin for the first 13 years of my life, FUCK NO, I also dated one for like only a week, FUCK NO, I also have a friend who's ESTP and he's a good friend but we could never work on a project together.) I don't hate them, they can be cool, but relationship, no...just no....not again. Lol.

    ESTPs to me have a very sort of physical sexiness about them, that becomes sort of scary and exhausting and maybe even burdensome up close, good from afar, but far from good lol.

    Te women in general just have a mean focused power suit wearing business woman sexiness that I can't really comprehend the reason for it being sexy. EXXJ women have a sort of energetic outgoing sexiness, probably feels "sexy" because it's so difficult to manifest in myself and is so different from me. Idk, EXTJ women just feel like they are made out of sexy stone lol. They are hard, but sexy despite being hard, probably sexy because they seem like hard women waiting to be discovered and don't evne know it. Si women just relax the shit out of me, unlike Se women who always make me feel apprehensive. So I'd say, I like a Te using, EXXJ women, with good Si. I'm tired of fighting my attraction to business women who are socially energetic because it's weird or whatever since I'm not a business type myself, I just want to embrace it now and get on with life.

    It sounds like OP has had horrible experiences with them, to go as far as saying wars were built off INF EST conflicts.

    My consensus are, ESTJs are the shit, before you say no, go out and meet one around you age.....that you don't work for.

  3. #13
    INFP

    Quote Originally Posted by UberY0shi View Post
    I can't "agree" with the INFP-ESTJ duality relationship simply because in my experiences, communication is too big a struggle between the types. That isn't to say the pairing cannot work, it's just difficult to understand one another's natural state.

    I have a relatively close ESTJ friend that used to be my manager in retail and we got along for the most part. But there were times where we really butt heads particularly in the realm of work standards. There were certain things that I simply didn't care to fulfill that he considered non-negotiable aspects of the job. Like for example, he'd criticize me heavily for not eyeballing customers during slow hours, while I preferred not putting the customers at such unease, especially when previous customers had already complained about being "stalked" while shopping. Sometimes when he'd point out to me for the umpteenth time about my not watching customers, he'd kinda explode in this half-whining, half-demanding tone about it all. It was pretty infuriating to say the least, because obeying this particular order just got me into serious trouble with certain customers cussing me out about watching them. Happened to the manager at times too, but he didn't care; that was part of the job we had to do so he did it.

    There's also one "complaint" of mine that pops up, as pretentious as it may sound or whatever--I don't think Te vs. Fi is a "fair" match-up considering the likelihood of Te's practical value taking common precedence over Fi's subjective value. I would assume that not only would it be confusing for an ESTJ to understand an INFP's value system even with a longer period of exposure/friendship, but it could also come at a certain cost for an ESTJ to exercise empathy with INFP's cognitive order. Not sure if I said that right, but it (could) come across as the ESTJ needing to almost contradict themselves just to attempt standing in an INFP's shoes. In other words, it could actually set an ESTJ back trying to understand INFPs in certain environments; a setback few would ever bother taking considering their tendency toward efficiency. Maybe I could toss in the maturity card and whatnot being a factor in this, but the same could be said about any relationship between types so that's not a good point to take.

    No clue though, haven't gotten much ESTJ feedback on these things.
    Would it be a step back for INFP to take a step in ESTJs shoes, and learn some of the Te world. I think not. I think same goes for ESTJ, it's not a step back, they would see how Fi relations with people actually help efficiency. Like those customers cussing you out, sounds like your friend wasn't considering Fi matters when it comes to how to conduct oneself ethically with other people, it would not set him back to gain a win/win situation between job standards and customer satisfaction. Also ESTJs value Fi as much as INFPs value Te, it's just our Te is used to serve our Fi values, we want to organize the environment to align with our values, they want to inspire people to provide support and service to their goals. Fi actually benefits their efficiency because mos tof the time ESTjs no. 1 obstacle with getting a job done is not themselves, is not the process, but it's the people.

  4. #14
    INFP

    Quote Originally Posted by JFrombaugh View Post
    I haven't had too many personal enemies in my life, but two of the three or so I have had were either ESTJ or ESTP. They hated me and I hated them. They hated my boring life, my head in the clouds mentality, my reluctance to take a stand, and my taking everything too much to heart, while I hated their unwillingness to let me have peace and quiet, their insensitivity to other peoples' feelings, and just the general fact that they were all-around douches who nevertheless managed to get their friends to love them.

    And yes, I understand that MBTI does NOT force people into cookie cutter molds, but most if not all of the ESTJs that I have known/met have had that "work hard, play hard" mentality, and they tended not to have a lot of respect for others who can't or won't do the same.

    An ESTJ's mind operates on pure logic, and they do not hold back. They are brutally honest. They mean no offense, but they tend to have a hard time understanding why you'd be offended by criticism if it's true. They do not sugar-coat their words, and are likely to hurt an INFP's feelings time and time again. I don't know about other INFPs, but I definitely require a more sensitive partner who is willing to phrase things more delicately and be supportive of my moods.
    That sounds closer to ESTP given the Ti in their stack. As I have also been hurt many times from Ti users in general, not just ESTPs( I have a very "FUCK TI!" attitude because of this lol.) ESTJ brutal honesty, since it's not as detailed and more action oriented than ESTP honesty, it may hurt but it does not cut as deep as Ti, because the solution to the problem they are addressing is usually esaily understood, while Ti makes it sound like there is no solution because YOU are the problem, not what you are doing (man fuck Ti seriously). ESTJ brutal honestly is usually like "Yea I know, you're right" because it's like things you know in the back of your head that you don't want to acknowledge yet. Ti just tries to rip you to shreds.

    There is a difference between " You never do your work!" vs "You probably never developed a strong work ethic because your parents babied you, no wonder you suck as an employee, they'll probably fire you in a week."

    But yea I think most if not all ESTjs have the "work hard play hard " attitude and do not respect those that do not work hard. Thing is, ESTJs don't care if your work is actually hard, it could be the easiest thing in the world, as long as you are dedicated and work hard at that you can easily earn their respect, matter of fact I do not think ESTJs like to take on tasks they do not know how to do them selves or overly hard work, they now how to pace themselves so the work isn't as taxing, they just like to see people who put their mind to what ever work they do decide to do and they like to see commitment to it. ENTJ's on the other hand lol.....if you're not conquering the world you are worthless lol.
    Santa Gloss thanked this post.

  5. #15
    INFP

    Quote Originally Posted by Kommandant View Post
    Yes that makes sense.
    Just out of curiosity: Wouldnt it be the same issue with ENTPs and ENTJs though? From my experience they act in a very smiliar way. They are different from ESTJs and ESTPs sure, but the seems very accurate for these two types as well. I know ENTPs tend to put some more humour and creativity (?) in their criticism and words in general but still. You get along better with them?
    Honestly, ENTPs creativity and humor can make it worse. Because saying harsh hurtful things as jokes makes it pleasurable for them and more likely to keep doing it because so. I have been hurt by ENTPs and they don't see why it's hurtful and think it's fun. It's like a dog is literally biting your hand off and their owner is saying "Oh, he's just playing." And the more it hurts, SOME ENTPs (usually 7w8) actually like to cause a little pain with their jokes, and to me that's like the worst shit ever. I always feel like they are like the joker and saying to themselves "It's more fun if you bleed."(<<<< Keep.That.Shit.Away.From.Me)
    JFrombaugh, Kommandant and organotroph thanked this post.

  6. #16

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Thank you for this thread BTW. This topic has been on my mind alot lately.

    First let me frame my response with this , I sounded alot like this when I first started with MBTI socinics and enneagram.
    I was adamant about "HELL NO ESTJ IS NOT FOR ME!" and adamant about breaking the "fate" of this theory and going for INFJ because they sound way better.
    Then I read INFP/INFJ isn't so good all the time, then I read people have parents that are ESTJ/INFP, and their parents have been together for XX years.( most numbers where double digits).
    Then I read about Fi/Fe clashes. And Have tried to emotionally connect with an ESTP and ISFJ and it felt empty.
    I still thought to myself " But I'm a guy, I don't to be with a dominant masculine bossy type woman, bossing me around all day telling me what to do." So I went back to my very first opinion which was "ISFPs are my best match, Fi/Fi all the way baby!"
    Then I met an ESTJ girl my age. Let me tell you something......you might actually feel like a hypocrite the way it might change your mind LOL!

    I had an ESTJ co-worker at my job so I saw her often. We fucking hit it off (and she was hot so like yea that was a factor to).

    -She understood and loved my sense of humor

    -She found her job sort of stressful and boring and even said out loud to me I make her job more fun(as an introvert , I couldn't appreciate that more).

    -Yea she reminded me to do my job, but I mean, that's what I'm supposed to be doing anyway, so it kind of makes you mad and grateful lol.

    -She did not mind my goofy antics as long as it didn't distract her from work.

    -She would smile when she saw me and easily initiated conversation with me.

    -She LOVED when I teased her and it was soooo satisfying to tease this girl who was hot and in a supervisor position. Being teased for her was like a guilty pleasure and I had the key, her little childike emotions would come out.

    Pretty much, what I am trying to say is, being myself around this girl worked so much that she would notice when I was trying to impress her and act better than I was and it would turn her off because she liked who I was so much. I think INFP's actually have powers over ESTJs, maybe not in loudness or assertiveness, but you can touch them in soft spots and completely understand what you did, it's crazy. Only if she didn't have a boyfriend. And as far as emotional connection and all that, her emotions were more childlike and would come out when teased, but when dealing with customers she was completely professional and neutral showing a more benevolent kindness to people instead of a warm personal kindness, sort of like a queen knighting folks lol.


    None of this is a guranteed effect of ESTJ/INFP, BUT I'm just saying there is another side to the coin of "INFP and ESTJs do not get along!"

    I say, yea fucking right. After meeting that girl I realized there were way more ESTJs in my life than I realized and I have had clashes with 2, and they weren't even major unfixable clashes, the clashes are like you getting to know how opposite from you your opposite actually is and you actually have the ability to adjust your behavior to get along with them. I learned that one of my close friends is ESTJ, he is so cliche it's funny lol he's so cliche he makes me feel more interesting by default and he gives pretty good career advice that makes sense to me, unlike ENTJ career advice that sounds like you have to fucking die from a heart attack working so hard. And these are not the only ESTJs I've met, I've spent time and come to know at least 9 ESTJs in my life and some are better than other's but I never got into a serious fight with any. But I also haven't dated any either so there's that but honestly, I slowly started thinking ESTJs are the shit lol. I love how some can flip from serious to fun, that's one of my favorite parts about them, that transition of personality, it's like a surprise that few have access too. Very eager to help someone out, even if they gain no benefit. Very predictable so you can count on them, not too pushy like an ESTP is, and they have a good sense of humor unlike some ENTJs I've met who can have a more dryer and vulgar sense of humor that just doesn't make me laugh.

    I'm like almost bent on getting an ESTJ girlfriend now after my encounter, she'll probably laugh at my jokes and make sure I pay my bills, and I'm slowly becoming more fine with that. (Though previously I was very much against that and super bent on my independence, but I'm learning no one man is an island, and doing things all alone can lead to a lonely life.)

    ESTPs on the other had, fuuuuuuck no! (I grew up with an ESTP cousin for the first 13 years of my life, FUCK NO, I also dated one for like only a week, FUCK NO, I also have a friend who's ESTP and he's a good friend but we could never work on a project together.) I don't hate them, they can be cool, but relationship, no...just no....not again. Lol.

    ESTPs to me have a very sort of physical sexiness about them, that becomes sort of scary and exhausting and maybe even burdensome up close, good from afar, but far from good lol.

    Te women in general just have a mean focused power suit wearing business woman sexiness that I can't really comprehend the reason for it being sexy. EXXJ women have a sort of energetic outgoing sexiness, probably feels "sexy" because it's so difficult to manifest in myself and is so different from me. Idk, EXTJ women just feel like they are made out of sexy stone lol. They are hard, but sexy despite being hard, probably sexy because they seem like hard women waiting to be discovered and don't evne know it. Si women just relax the shit out of me, unlike Se women who always make me feel apprehensive. So I'd say, I like a Te using, EXXJ women, with good Si. I'm tired of fighting my attraction to business women who are socially energetic because it's weird or whatever since I'm not a business type myself, I just want to embrace it now and get on with life.

    It sounds like OP has had horrible experiences with them, to go as far as saying wars were built off INF EST conflicts.

    My consensus are, ESTJs are the shit, before you say no, go out and meet one around you age.....that you don't work for.
    as an ESTJ woman, oh my god. THANK YOU. Everything you described here I can imagine my INFP bf feels now that I'm looking at it from your perspective-- it's mind blowingly accurate! I've never had someone so infatuated with me before just BEING ME. I've dated guys that ~THINK~ they want a business type of girl, but they don't-- it scares them lol. But INFPs you are all never afraid because you're seeing way past the surfacey stuff. And if we get you, oh my god, WE GET YOU-- we can make you laugh at any given moment. And also, I would say yeah you do know how to "control" us in a sense when it comes to feelings. But also we kind of do the same to you too ;). So yes, get yourself a sexy stone ESTJ gf!
    Last edited by artofbalance; 06-13-2018 at 09:13 PM.
    mushr00m, Santa Gloss, L P and 1 others thanked this post.

  7. #17
    INFP - The Idealists

    @Lord Pixel

    Okay...I foresaw a post like this since the instant I posted this thread, so...

    First off, congratulations on overcoming your differences and seeing the good sides of ESTJs. I didn't meant to imply that this relationship was impossible, only that I have had some bad experiences with them myself. My OP was kind of a combination of pent-up Fi-related ranting and exaggeration.

    Also, I think that in my case, being a 9 in the Enneagram makes the whole ESTJ "work hard, play hard" attitude more off-putting by default for me than some other INFPs, because Type 9 by definition prefers to slow down and take things easy, and in the less healthy levels can actually think its a good thing to be lazy.

    Secondly, now that you mention it, I DO think the two people I mentioned were ESTP rather than ESTJ, going by what you said about Ti vs Te brutal honesty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Honestly, ENTPs creativity and humor can make it worse. Because saying harsh hurtful things as jokes makes it pleasurable for them and more likely to keep doing it because so. I have been hurt by ENTPs and they don't see why it's hurtful and think it's fun. It's like a dog is literally biting your hand off and their owner is saying "Oh, he's just playing." And the more it hurts, SOME ENTPs (usually 7w8) actually like to cause a little pain with their jokes, and to me that's like the worst shit ever. I always feel like they are like the joker and saying to themselves "It's more fun if you bleed."(<<<< Keep.That.Shit.Away.From.Me)
    AMEN to this. It's EXACTLY this kind of personally devaluing feelings and even taking pleasure in causing emotional pain that an INFP will turn from in horror. Even though they develop tertiary Fe later in life, the typical 20-something ExTP often has this kind of schadenfreude in spades, and I cannot stand them. That was what I meant when I said that ESTJs mean no harm, they can just be too harsh and direct with their criticisms sometimes.

    I guess the reason I didn't mention ENTPs is because I haven't had as much experience with them, and they at least share some degree of intellectualism and Ne with me, where sometimes it seems that all ESTPs talk about are sports, extreme adventures, and other stuff I just don't care about, on top of all the hurtful jokes and stuff.

    I remember a little while back I read a poll thread on here asking what is the meanest MBTI type, and ESTJ was actually in the lead by far. You should quote your above post in that thread if you can find it.
    Last edited by JFrombaugh; 06-13-2018 at 10:49 PM.
    Kommandant and L P thanked this post.

  8. #18

    I drive xSTJs absolutely insane. And I totally lose confidence if I'm forced to think in a logical, process-oriented manner. I fell in love and married my mirror, ENFJ.
    L P and Row thanked this post.

  9. #19
    INFP - The Idealists

    My closest friend is ESTJ. He's really intense, but he's always been a solid friend to me. Sometimes we don't understand each others' thinking and some times behavior. We can definitely get on each others' nerves. But I have not had a better friend over the last 8 years. He's more than 30 years younger than I am. Just as I don't fit some of the stereotypes of INFPs, he really does not fit the stereotypes of ESTJ. He is funny as hell and a wicked hedonist. He doesn't take life too seriously. He lives to bring and serve pleasure to everybody in his extraordinary circle of friends and he does not want to be the alpha male. He's the court jester. We have to get past thinking people are their types. Everyone has different experiences that lead them to grow and change in their own unique ways. He has a chronic illness that will likely shorten his life expectancy and he lives his to the fullest. We share a passion for backcountry skiing and ski mountaineering. Holding your partner's life in your hands and in your every decision, recognizing that you have to make good decisions together or one of both of you will die forges strong bonds of trust and friendship. I know the kind of person he is and that I can count on him in any situation life throws at us. That kind of characteristic knows no type.
    L P thanked this post.

  10. #20

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Pixel View Post
    Honestly, ENTPs creativity and humor can make it worse. Because saying harsh hurtful things as jokes makes it pleasurable for them and more likely to keep doing it because so. I have been hurt by ENTPs and they don't see why it's hurtful and think it's fun. It's like a dog is literally biting your hand off and their owner is saying "Oh, he's just playing." And the more it hurts, SOME ENTPs (usually 7w8) actually like to cause a little pain with their jokes, and to me that's like the worst shit ever. I always feel like they are like the joker and saying to themselves "It's more fun if you bleed."(<<<< Keep.That.Shit.Away.From.Me)
    Couldnt have said it better myself. My biggest issue with ENTPs.
    They usually are interesting and funny people but if youre in a close relationship with one this sort of behaviour becomes quite unbearable. I wonder how partner of ENTPs handle it... maybe they just dont care... somehow.
    L P thanked this post.


     
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