[INFP] The need for connection, and a way to change the world, can I find it here? - Page 2

The need for connection, and a way to change the world, can I find it here?

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This is a discussion on The need for connection, and a way to change the world, can I find it here? within the INFP Forum - The Idealists forums, part of the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers category; ...

  1. #11
    INFP - The Idealists



    That's your Saturn Return. (I know none of you care about astrology! Leave me alone!)


    I do care. I'm twenty-eight, having Saturn in Capricorn. :)





    Are you good with prime numbers, exercise, construction, or ideas of education (especially changing over to the metric system)?


    No, I'm terrible at maths and I don't know these things, my concern is ethical. More like Krishnamurti stuff;
    https://jkrishnamurti.org/content/ch...ion’/education
    functionaloneness thanked this post.

  2. #12

    Lets say all of you would never have to make a house or apartment payment and all your food was paid for as well. Would you want to work for such a company. Even your phone, clothing, video games, and even your car. Say you just have a card that keeps track of your purchases not to control them but to keep tract of the things so that it reorders those items for you when needed. Would you like that? The thing is you are a part of what makes this work. You are part of society. We all are, we all do things we call work which really is just our contribution in service and products to the rest of society. In reality this is true. We don't work for a living, each one of us is part of a system that provides the needs and comforts of everyone else. People, you, me and you neighbor made the products you use and supplies the service you need. Your debit card's use is only to keep track so that there is enough inventory available for everyone. Competition is within each of the manufacturer divisions completing to come up with the best quality of products for you to choose from. Your house is remodeled and updated every 5 years or so. Oh and you work 4 six hour days or tough it up and work 3 eight hour days. Labor is streamlined and businesses collaborate to reduce redundancy and surplus of excess products.

    I know people think humans are naturally greedy and power hungry. Yet we understand order. Have you ever stood in a line. How crazy is that! you wait there for hours for service or a show. There is no line police, no crowd control. What stops any of us to walking to the front of the line other than to have a anger mob kill us who have been waiting there longer. Probably in those lines are thieves, rapists, murderers, terrorist, the mafia, maybe even the Pope. Maybe not the Pope, but good and bad people understand order. They all even have families and meetings with doughnuts or pizza and beer. Yet there is always enough doughnuts and pizza and beer because there is this thing in us that leaves enough for everyone else. We take what we need according to what is available.

    And what if rather than to force my convictions on you or yours on me, I know that we protect each others ability to live our lives according to our conscience and values and traditions, because by doing so I can live the life I desire. We are not a species of predators. We do not leave our sick, old, and young to die. We protect them and nurture them. Our strength is in our numbers.

    What if soldiers we a brotherhood sworn to protect its people, not from the enemies without but those within who wish to enslave, threaten, and take advantage of others and not to fight each other and kill others for the sake of the powerful and agenda of leaders. And sworn not to fight each other. Why do soldier kill each other who booth only want what is good for their families and neighbors. The threat is not other soldiers but those who determine who we should hate and kill and label them our enemies. They only really wish for the safety and well being of those they love.

    We could have a world similar to this. Our lifestyles would not really change, except that we know we are caretakers of this planet and of each other. Not to love but for order, peace, and to look forward to a better future for our children and their children.

  3. #13
    INFP - The Idealists

    Sorry functionaloneness, I can't get you, we couldn't be more diametrically opposite.
    From your writings you are all about egalitarianism, perfect organization and economic (and quite gregarious, clearly talking about human as a specie), I'm a much of an antisocial anarchist who thinks egality is chimera.

  4. #14

    Quote Originally Posted by functionaloneness View Post
    Lets say all of you would never have to make a house or apartment payment and all your food was paid for as well. Would you want to work for such a company. Even your phone, clothing, video games, and even your car. Say you just have a card that keeps track of your purchases not to control them but to keep tract of the things so that it reorders those items for you when needed. Would you like that? The thing is you are a part of what makes this work. You are part of society. We all are, we all do things we call work which really is just our contribution in service and products to the rest of society. In reality this is true. We don't work for a living, each one of us is part of a system that provides the needs and comforts of everyone else. People, you, me and you neighbor made the products you use and supplies the service you need. Your debit card's use is only to keep track so that there is enough inventory available for everyone. Competition is within each of the manufacturer divisions completing to come up with the best quality of products for you to choose from. Your house is remodeled and updated every 5 years or so. Oh and you work 4 six hour days or tough it up and work 3 eight hour days. Labor is streamlined and businesses collaborate to reduce redundancy and surplus of excess products.

    I know people think humans are naturally greedy and power hungry. Yet we understand order. Have you ever stood in a line. How crazy is that! you wait there for hours for service or a show. There is no line police, no crowd control. What stops any of us to walking to the front of the line other than to have a anger mob kill us who have been waiting there longer. Probably in those lines are thieves, rapists, murderers, terrorist, the mafia, maybe even the Pope. Maybe not the Pope, but good and bad people understand order. They all even have families and meetings with doughnuts or pizza and beer. Yet there is always enough doughnuts and pizza and beer because there is this thing in us that leaves enough for everyone else. We take what we need according to what is available.

    And what if rather than to force my convictions on you or yours on me, I know that we protect each others ability to live our lives according to our conscience and values and traditions, because by doing so I can live the life I desire. We are not a species of predators. We do not leave our sick, old, and young to die. We protect them and nurture them. Our strength is in our numbers.

    What if soldiers we a brotherhood sworn to protect its people, not from the enemies without but those within who wish to enslave, threaten, and take advantage of others and not to fight each other and kill others for the sake of the powerful and agenda of leaders. And sworn not to fight each other. Why do soldier kill each other who booth only want what is good for their families and neighbors. The threat is not other soldiers but those who determine who we should hate and kill and label them our enemies. They only really wish for the safety and well being of those they love.

    We could have a world similar to this. Our lifestyles would not really change, except that we know we are caretakers of this planet and of each other. Not to love but for order, peace, and to look forward to a better future for our children and their children.
    No, because whoever would pay for for things for me would be in absolute control of my life and I've little reason to believe they would have no incentive to exorcise such control for their benefit at my expense or out of some misguided sense of self-righteousness they would seek to control my life, they could to me whatever they wanted and whenever they wanted and sort of violent revolution I would not be able to stop them, let alone with them controlling my finances to start such revolution.Such people could simply dictate what I'm allowed talk on the phone, what video games I'm allowed to play let alone major decisions in my life, Not really, you do work for a living, as such your labor has a price and you aren't given whatever supplies and services you fancy, you're given limited number of money that you can spend on whatever you fancy but if you blow it off your employee or government (if it has a brain) won't just come to gave more for free. So what makes you think that your labor is worth enough to pay for all of this things you just mentioned? or is it still limited what defeats the point as not only I still have limited ability to of acquiring things but I gave control over process to people that most likely don't give damn about me.Not to mention who gets to decide what amount of labor is enough and what isn't?

    They are, not all but enough to make a difference. There doesn't need to be police present in specific place in order to for it to disincentivize as people can't simply inform law enforces. So understanding of order doesn't mean you're abiding by it at beast you're not doing so, pragmatically, not in the open.Not to mention you could exploit ability to impose order so you can get in front of the line knowing people wont' be able to do anything about it, not without serious consequences, hence what ensues in communist and socialists countries is disregard of rules by people in charge or those that have favor of such people knowing people wouldn't be able to do anything. No, there is enough of pizza, doughnuts and beer because they are produced in a sufficent such amounts knowing there is a demand on them, and spending their time and effort to produce sufficient amount of them for specific benefits they receive for that work depending on variety of factors that would constitute value of such labor.

    Someone didn't heard about Spartans and Nazis, that's not going into other regimes that mistreat own people.We don't in fact protect each other ability to lives according to our conscience, values and traditions, we protect them only if they don't violate rights of others or they don't bring significant harm to society and that's better case scenario.

    Yes, because soldiers are known for their ability stand up to authority, not deter own judgement for sake of authority and engage in pointless war that are detrimental to society for whatever reason people on charge of such soldiers, with soldiers doing either for financial and/or social benefits of doing so or convinced by such figures or come up to own conclusion it should be done. You idolize soldier, in reality soldier is about as equal or worse in that regard as those people who determine who we should hate and kill by labeling them enemies, in fact soldiers are quite content to do the same.If soldiers were so good at this, then this begs a question why there are so many oppressive regimes through the world and history that in fact seems mostly consist of them. Answer is they aren't good at this and can't be relied with such mission.

    No, we couldn't in such system people would have practically little to none power over their lives with various authorities having near control of them and just like in any utopian dreams that provided authorities with such amount of power over peoples lives things quickly turned nasty (or should i say from bad to worse).
    Last edited by NagatoUzumaki; 06-21-2019 at 05:59 AM.
    functionaloneness thanked this post.

  5. #15

    AnkwardNick
    We are not as different as you think. Yet if we are opposites it is because we allow each other to be so. I do not want you to be me or to be like me. I do not need you to agree with me. If you are concerned about education, I am as well. I have written children's books that I hope teaches some ethical lessons and has a second part that focuses on "thinking about stuff" If you would read it you could help me to improve the educational part at the end of the book and other books. Try not to mind the message of the story. I think I see myself as the half-full glass of water.



    I feel much the same way as you do about education, except I would not that love makes us creative human beings. Freedom of thought would be my alternative choice of words.
    Last edited by functionaloneness; 06-21-2019 at 10:09 AM.

  6. #16

    NagatoUzumaki

    The money you use is up to you. It would be like having a bank account for you to use as needed. You decide on what you need and what allows you to have the comfort you want in life. Other people made the beer and pizza. Whatever money these businesses make goes into the account. The account would also be for equipment, overhead, supplies, and ingredients. No one person controls the profit. All employee have equal access to the funds. Lets say all pizza businesses are combined so you can still order a Pizza Hut, Domino's, Little Caesars, Marcos, or even Hungry Howie's.

    Maybe soldiers is the wrong term, but there are protectors of the people and no one has power over them except to dictate there procedures and to insure the protect of the population against any abuse or negligence. Please understand all of this is just ideas a starting place. I am not putting any labels on them for they are only ideas which are out there to be built on. I am sure there is a better way. That is really the whole reason why no one person or group can have a concept of society that everyone must fit into. Society is based on diversity, and allows us to live our own lives. We need protectors/soldiers to protect us from those who wish to control, take advantage, and enslave.

    The whole world does not need to change. The product and services which we provide for each other allow us to live in comfort and security. As the quality of service and products get better so does our quality of life. We do need need more stuff just better stuff as technology and manufacturing improves. For everyone to seek abundance creates imbalance. We are often concern about who has more than we do. Why? I am happy with less. How much more or less you have than I do does not change nor would I want to control what you need knowing that same control would apply to me. But at the same time we should see we are responsible for the well-being and life on this planet. If we understood that in five years the world could be on solar and other sources of clean energy. But our minds are struck in how we must think to sustain our current processes of society. Yet the damage we continue to do to our environment will continue and grow for our minds are not free to take the action we need. The resources, designs, and production is available yet our minds and thinking is bound by our perception of what we can and cannot do. If we work and reason together we can change all of this.

  7. #17

    I've been spending some time thinking about why there's a need for economic growth rather than stagnation if developed countries are already, well, developed. But this is a world based on competitiveness and the moment you don't keep up, as a nation, you will lose power to someone else (possibly being in danger of war and assimilation or whatnot). Freedom of choice helps us stay innovative, so if you take that away, control my videogames (wtf!) then you set yourself open to risks.

    There might be something into wishing for a truly globalized utopia, but even if you convince every leader in the world to just stop the race for arms/productivity/and so on then you'll still get questions about wealth division.

    So there are already two reasons that your plan is too grand: 1) distrust and 2) you will need a very elaborate system to come up with a 'fair' system of vision and 2b) ain't nobody got time for that and 2c) who exactly is gonna come up with this system and whoops we're back at 1) again.

    Still, you highlight an interesting trend which is how cooperation on a large scale led to humans becoming so well-off (compared to in the past), so who's to say that in a bazillion years we wouldn't move toward something like that. (Have you read the book Sapiens?)

    I highly doubt the feasibility of it though. I mean, just look at this whole nonsense with Brexit alone. Then you have the disintegration of Europe, and the Middle East, and if you bring back all the major themes in the world these days a lot of it, at the root of it, is about inequality. Yet with Brexit people don't realize how the fuck to get this fixed again so they are in fact becoming more isolationist. This goes back to distrust again.

    I know this is all very depressing but what I really mean to say is your plan is just too grand. Still, that positive energy can be useful in things you can actually affect. Maybe voting and activism, but whatever you do, make your plan achievable within the span of your lifetime.
    functionaloneness thanked this post.

  8. #18

    Quote Originally Posted by functionaloneness View Post
    NagatoUzumaki

    The money you use is up to you. It would be like having a bank account for you to use as needed. You decide on what you need and what allows you to have the comfort you want in life. Other people made the beer and pizza. Whatever money these businesses make goes into the account. The account would also be for equipment, overhead, supplies, and ingredients. No one person controls the profit. All employee have equal access to the funds. Lets say all pizza businesses are combined so you can still order a Pizza Hut, Domino's, Little Caesars, Marcos, or even Hungry Howie's.

    Maybe soldiers is the wrong term, but there are protectors of the people and no one has power over them except to dictate there procedures and to insure the protect of the population against any abuse or negligence. Please understand all of this is just ideas a starting place. I am not putting any labels on them for they are only ideas which are out there to be built on. I am sure there is a better way. That is really the whole reason why no one person or group can have a concept of society that everyone must fit into. Society is based on diversity, and allows us to live our own lives. We need protectors/soldiers to protect us from those who wish to control, take advantage, and enslave.

    The whole world does not need to change. The product and services which we provide for each other allow us to live in comfort and security. As the quality of service and products get better so does our quality of life. We do need need more stuff just better stuff as technology and manufacturing improves. For everyone to seek abundance creates imbalance. We are often concern about who has more than we do. Why? I am happy with less. How much more or less you have than I do does not change nor would I want to control what you need knowing that same control would apply to me. But at the same time we should see we are responsible for the well-being and life on this planet. If we understood that in five years the world could be on solar and other sources of clean energy. But our minds are struck in how we must think to sustain our current processes of society. Yet the damage we continue to do to our environment will continue and grow for our minds are not free to take the action we need. The resources, designs, and production is available yet our minds and thinking is bound by our perception of what we can and cannot do. If we work and reason together we can change all of this.
    That contradicts what you said earlier you said that both food, apartment, clothes etc would be paid for me. I would be still paying for it just from some sort collective business account. Then if that's your idea then there are even more issues with what you said than I initially pointed out. What does equal access even means, does that mean everyone can take whatever they want? Then basically one person can take everything and if there is a limit then there is person in charge of it, at least that sets up a rule that dictates that limit. If you set up a limit concerning necessity someone will have to establish what such necessity constitutes, not to mention if such limit would be equal what would be point of busting my ass off doing overtime or education and acquiring complex and rare skills, why spend years on education when you can have same thing low skill worker with no education can? Or does mob establishes limit, in which case if mob doesn't like someone they can restrict your access. Also in what way they are combined? They share resources? Even worse because that defeats the point of business that is compete with other business to make a better product to make more money, here is no competition as resources are shared so there is no point in a making superior product and putting much effort into it.

    Using word protector makes no real difference except it makes it sound prettier, they would still be soldiers and if there was no one would have power over them then they wouldn't be even that, they were just individuals likely bound to end fighting each other (most likely some would end organizing around some sort authority in order to even be efficient and avoid mentioned problem) due to disagreements on how things ought to be conducted most efficient organization would end crushing such individuals and other organizations that wouldn't comply with it, so in the end authority would win anyway. The reason why society has people that don't "fit" into it is because such people are small minority (unless you mean insignificant in functioning of the society differences that aren't incompatible) and there is a strong authority that would prevent that minority organizing and using violence and other methods to enforce compliance from majority, then said minority ending turning into authority. So yes soldiers do protect us from mostly external threats that would wish to control, take advantage and enslave us but you forgot fact that soldiers not only serve authority but they pretty much have to otherwise they would eat each other and be disorganized and would be crushed by an organized force serving authority that would unite such soldiers in spite of their disagreements. So there is no real army in the world that would have not have some sort of authority commanding it.

    Except you forget there is no incentive for most in improvement (I mean maybe few people would be interested for some sort of greater good) if they already have what they need, most people would just slack off doing very little (probably including me) in such scenario. So currently people have incentive as they need to bust their ass off in order to get what they need and want and therefore forcing people that want the most to innovate to get more and those who want what they need have to put sufficient amount of work that would satisfy those who want to innovate, so there is some sort negotiation between employee and employer in that regard. Yeah and if all people became absolute pacifists then there would no wars and physical conflict, not going to happen, even if somehow such civilization emerged they would be crushed even by small group of violent dissenters from inside or outside such civilization. So such idea of society isn't worth much if you don't consider practicality of implementation of such society, pacifist society may sound nice as an ideal regarding topic of violence (even then not everyone would agree), however if one looked at results of such society then its not so appealing anymore, that's without going into ethical problems some of I pointed out with notion of society you're proposing.

  9. #19

    Negotiator,

    It is only a direction in which to go. The destination is unclear but the trip is necessary. People fail but that leads to a better understand of what not to do. There can be no Utopian government. Leaders will always have their own agenda no matter how well intended it will not work for everyone. Certainly something must replace the government as far as coordination and logistics, or whatever. For any group to take charge is ineffective and will always seek to maintain a control on the choices they themselves would not want others to have.

    We keep setting up the wealthy and being the losers in such a concept. Again, we each must learn to understand there is ballance. I have no problems with the rich and their lifestyle because I want no one to tell me what I can have and what I cannot have. I hose!. I trust others to learn to choose well for themselves. They can have the surplus of what I do not need. Their desires and way of life do not affect my own. They have the same understanding that the more they require the less there is for others and the more extreme their effect on this planet. Some day we will all live better than the rich do. We each all have better lives than the royalty of the past. Wealth is relative. But amount is a choice.

    I think we do start off small. I think each person must learn how to transition to understanding how their choices affect others and this planet for better or for worse. I do not wish to control those decision of others, the transition must be organic with each person. The biggest problem is not any of these things. It is our way of communication. Or more precisely the goal of our communication. Maybe that is part of some great deception or part of our education. Maybe both. There is so much energy here on this website even here on this thread. Yet with all of that potential it goes nowhere. We discuss and we debate and we feel we are right and others are wrong. We make outstanding irrefutable argument/ statements. We convince ourselves we have accomplished our goal and we move on to the next thread. That should drive us crazy!!!!!!!! We are clever, we are alot of brainpower here. We do have the ability to find answers or at least possible solutions. I know my stuff is not enough. That is why I am here. I need you and you need me otherwise we let momentum decide our future. All of us are on the same train and this train is going to crash someday. We do not need to sit and let that happen. We can slow it down and maybe even get on a train that is going to a better not perfect destination. Together we are the beginning of a solution. We will fail but we can succeed if we understand failure is part of life and evolution. We can press past failure knowing we are gaining ground.

    The problem is forums are designed for discussion, that is what we know how to do. We are not here to learn to function together with our diverse ideas and understanding. But no one person or group would ever be able to do the things needed and desire by everyone. We can do this. We can build something better we can change our direction, we can save our home and create a future for our children. Otherwise we are leaving them a bigger mess than what we started with.

  10. #20
    Unknown

    there are protectors of the people and no one has power over them except to dictate there procedures and to insure the protect of the population against any abuse or negligence. Please understand all of this is just ideas a starting place. I am not putting any labels on them for they are only ideas which are out there to be built on. I am sure there is a better way. That is really the whole reason why no one person or group can have a concept of society that everyone must fit into. Society is based on diversity, and allows us to live our own lives. We need protectors/soldiers to protect us from those who wish to control, take advantage, and enslave.
    Totalitarianism in a nutshell, advertisements and all.


     
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