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INFP-ENTJ relations

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This is a discussion on INFP-ENTJ relations within the INFP Forum - The Idealists forums, part of the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers category; Originally Posted by Strelnikov Thank you! The feeling is mutual! Well... what I'm seeking... I did present the case that ...

  1. #21
    INFP

    Quote Originally Posted by Strelnikov View Post



    Thank you! The feeling is mutual!

    Well... what I'm seeking... I did present the case that triggered the question of the thread in my mind, but I was also curious in a wider sense how INFPs view ENTJs and yes, you did help with that. What I find fascinating about dominant Fi is the resilience. It could be inferior Fi or my 9 wing (Enneagram-wise), but I really value resilience. I see resilience as the trait I'm most proud in myself, due to my own personal past (having been through poverty and illness, even death - medics managed to resuscitate me), but also because of my birthplace (a city which has been completely destroyed 3 times, survived 2 world wars and German - WW1 and Allied - WW2 occupations and yet it still stands, the phoenix is on our coat of arms as a symbol of our resilience despite hardship).

    I see strength mainly not as an ability to be aggressive in the offensive, as much as I see it in terms of one's ability to take it, to suffer hit after hit without giving up and it seems to me Fi-doms are exceptional at this. I see INFPs as powerhouses, because real power isn't about a puffed up chest and the go-getter attitude, but about taking it quietly and persevering. And I have seen my INFP friends take heavy hits and in a way, the hits barely put them off balance. Sensitive like a seismometer, yet resilient at the same time. Another thing I really like is the moral compass, you seem to be able to deal with complex moral questions in a way I can't and this makes INFPs excellent at giving solid grounded advice which re-balances me.
    I don't know if it's resilience so much or if it's "This hurts but I don't want anyone to know ever ever ever ever ever!" until one day it all comes spilling out. But before then, yea suffer in silence, except when the doors are closed and you listen to sad music or whatever your ritual is. The reason for so desperately not wanting anyone to know is because either you'll look weak and over sensitive like people accuse INFPs of quite often (it's not entirely untrue) or if someone has hurt you, you never want them to know because then they will know how to hurt you in the future, and you don't ever want them to know they had the power to hurt you so damn deeply. It goes as far, (in my case) as me creating fake insecurities for people to make fun of so that they do not hit my real ones. I remember one time in school I told kids I was afraid of squirrels so that that would be the thing I got made fun of for instead of real things that would hurt me. So resilience or protection? Unless you are talking about something else.
    Monandock and Strelnikov thanked this post.

  2. #22

    Quote Originally Posted by L P View Post
    I don't know if it's resilience so much or if it's "This hurts but I don't want anyone to know ever ever ever ever ever!" until one day it all comes spilling out. But before then, yea suffer in silence, except when the doors are closed and you listen to sad music or whatever your ritual is. The reason for so desperately not wanting anyone to know is because either you'll look weak and over sensitive like people accuse INFPs of quite often (it's not entirely untrue) or if someone has hurt you, you never want them to know because then they will know how to hurt you in the future, and you don't ever want them to know they had the power to hurt you so damn deeply. It goes as far, (in my case) as me creating fake insecurities for people to make fun of so that they do not hit my real ones. I remember one time in school I told kids I was afraid of squirrels so that that would be the thing I got made fun of for instead of real things that would hurt me. So resilience or protection? Unless you are talking about something else.
    I didn't know about the "suffer in silence" part of INFPs. I usually thought you take the hit, you do suffer for a while and then it just dissipates, the energy just dissipates and you're back as if nothing happened. I didn't know that it gets buried and then resurfaces. That's the part that surprises me.

    As for the "scared of squirrels" part... my reaction is curiosity (Why? What is it about them that scares you?). That's how I would have reacted. I've never had the instinct to make fun of people. As I see life as a very serious matter, I tend to take other people and their worries/fears/thoughts/etc. just as seriously. This might make me seem as if I don't have a sense of humour, but the upside is: kids love me for it, because I never treat them in a condescending manner and I view them as responsible adults. I take their thoughts and ideas seriously. This was one of the things I always hated when I was a kid, the fact that adults never took me seriously, even when I was telling them to be responsible with money.

    It seems to me that in your case there was a protection mechanism... Do all INFPs have this? But I can't help but ask: it seems to me you expect people to make fun of you... why is that? I have been made fun of by other kids in my day... my older brother (ESTJ 6) was their leader. I guess in a way, this is how I became a type 8. When those who are supposed to protect you fail you, you have no other choice but to accept the world is unfair and harsh, kill all hopes and dreams of justice and mercy and toughen up and live on your own... you become your own parent. Even more than that: the world doesn't like you and it will reject you. Lesson 1 for a type 8: the world will be merciless to you, expect the worse, the smallest mistake will be punished with savage cruelty and lesson 2... perhaps the most painful (see my signature). The source of the quote is unclear, it was either Genghis Khan or a piece of advice from his mother. I told my brother a few weeks ago about a time when I spent 3 days in college without eating, on the 3rd day I ate a pack of biscuits (it's surprising how much sleep and water can compensate for hunger)... he was surprised and asked why I didn't ask him for money (fun fact: I didn't have money because I borrowed him money :) )... I guess he doesn't get it...

  3. #23
    INFP

    Quote Originally Posted by Strelnikov View Post
    I didn't know about the "suffer in silence" part of INFPs. I usually thought you take the hit, you do suffer for a while and then it just dissipates, the energy just dissipates and you're back as if nothing happened. I didn't know that it gets buried and then resurfaces. That's the part that surprises me.
    Idk about other INFPs but for me it does not dissipate, I might laugh, make it seem like I'm fine but I just bury it until no one's around and cringe in silence, cringing because I regret either not yelling back at that person or failing to do some other thing.


    As for the "scared of squirrels" part... my reaction is curiosity (Why? What is it about them that scares you?). That's how I would have reacted. I've never had the instinct to make fun of people. As I see life as a very serious matter, I tend to take other people and their worries/fears/thoughts/etc. just as seriously. This might make me seem as if I don't have a sense of humour, but the upside is: kids love me for it, because I never treat them in a condescending manner and I view them as responsible adults. I take their thoughts and ideas seriously. This was one of the things I always hated when I was a kid, the fact that adults never took me seriously, even when I was telling them to be responsible with money.

    It seems to me that in your case there was a protection mechanism... Do all INFPs have this? But I can't help but ask: it seems to me you expect people to make fun of you... why is that? I have been made fun of by other kids in my day... my older brother (ESTJ 6) was their leader. I guess in a way, this is how I became a type 8. When those who are supposed to protect you fail you, you have no other choice but to accept the world is unfair and harsh, kill all hopes and dreams of justice and mercy and toughen up and live on your own... you become your own parent. Even more than that: the world doesn't like you and it will reject you. Lesson 1 for a type 8: the world will be merciless to you, expect the worse, the smallest mistake will be punished with savage cruelty and lesson 2... perhaps the most painful (see my signature). The source of the quote is unclear, it was either Genghis Khan or a piece of advice from his mother. I told my brother a few weeks ago about a time when I spent 3 days in college without eating, on the 3rd day I ate a pack of biscuits (it's surprising how much sleep and water can compensate for hunger)... he was surprised and asked why I didn't ask him for money (fun fact: I didn't have money because I borrowed him money :) )... I guess he doesn't get it...
    This was just a reaction to seeing people make fun of other people, I wanted to be prepared just incase it ever happened to me, and it worked. It still happens here and there and I still use the same strategy out of habit because of how well it works, the whole reason for using it is because when someone says something that hurts me, though I may try my best to fake it like it doesn't sometimes it can hurt very deeply and I can't get rid of the feeling unless I distract myself or cling on to something good, so to avoid that pain I have to do bs like that. I mean I've got a roommate right now that gets off on roasting me, and somethings don't hurt while other's he goes to lengths to cut me deeply, so once again I have to fake react like I'm hurt to things that don't hurt me so he can get his fix and I can have my peace, because telling him to stfu and leave me tf alone does not work.

    Type 8 sounds hard, like you see life as one big enemy it sounds like. And your brother hasn't got a clue, but at the same time it sounds like you you don't want to be a burden so bad that you are willing to put things on your shoulder even when you can't carry it.
    Strelnikov thanked this post.

  4. #24

    Quote Originally Posted by L P View Post
    Idk about other INFPs but for me it does not dissipate, I might laugh, make it seem like I'm fine but I just bury it until no one's around and cringe in silence, cringing because I regret either not yelling back at that person or failing to do some other thing.

    This was just a reaction to seeing people make fun of other people, I wanted to be prepared just incase it ever happened to me, and it worked. It still happens here and there and I still use the same strategy out of habit because of how well it works, the whole reason for using it is because when someone says something that hurts me, though I may try my best to fake it like it doesn't sometimes it can hurt very deeply and I can't get rid of the feeling unless I distract myself or cling on to something good, so to avoid that pain I have to do bs like that. I mean I've got a roommate right now that gets off on roasting me, and somethings don't hurt while other's he goes to lengths to cut me deeply, so once again I have to fake react like I'm hurt to things that don't hurt me so he can get his fix and I can have my peace, because telling him to stfu and leave me tf alone does not work.

    Type 8 sounds hard, like you see life as one big enemy it sounds like. And your brother hasn't got a clue, but at the same time it sounds like you you don't want to be a burden so bad that you are willing to put things on your shoulder even when you can't carry it.

    I just saw the laugh/I'm fine part, I never knew about the internal process. With one close INFP friend I had 2 periods during which we didn't speak to each other and the second time was because she misunderstood my intentions. I think you guys need to talk through issues when you have them. Like tell person X: "Look you did that. I don't like it because... reasons" If she had told me how I came across, we could have cleared the misunderstandings right then and there. Regarding your roommate, I would find him when he's not in the mood for jokes and tell him I want to talk to him. And I'd just tell him: "Look! This isn't cool! And I'd really appreciate it if you cut the jokes!" If he keeps doing it... punish him... He might not like you, but he will respect you when you set boundaries and don't allow him to cross them.

    Being an 8... You get it! That's exactly what it's like. I do have this policy of not burdening others with my problems. I solve them myself... ooor let them fester and pretend they're not there (9 wing :) )
    L P thanked this post.

  5. #25

    I commend all of you INFP-ENTJ combos for working out as well as you have. I got out of a relationship with an ENTJ (8w9 so/sx) a little more than two months ago now, so I'm somewhere in between being venomously envious of you, as well as intensely grateful to not be in your place anymore. There's so much duality in a relatively fresh breakup, but it's been enough time that my good sense has made a full return and I understand everything now.

    How did/do I see ENTJs? Before I became involved with an ENTJ, the whole xNTJ type was damn sexy to me; the thought was like a weakness. Maybe it's because of all of the hype that exists here and other places online, but I loved that straightforward principled demeanor, well meaning and governed by reason. Hell, I still love it.
    Even after a failed relationship, my personal view of ENTJs has not suffered as a result. There's just less idealism and more true understanding now. Frustration and admiration in equal parts.

    The below is no less important, but spoiler'd for, uh... b r e v i t y ... Yeah, that doesn't exist... > u >
     
    Here are some recounts and thoughts on my year with my ENTJ ex. Forgive the length of this post--I still tend to relive it all when I think and write about it.
    My ex and I, though both mature and principled, are troubled in different ways. He's an 8w9, a narcissist who still struggles with his troubled childhood, and I'm a 4w3, a self-shaming loner with trust issues. I go on a lot about the 8/4 dynamic, so maybe that dynamic is more relevant than the ENTJ x INFP general. Regardless, I look forward to reading what anyone interested might interpret from my POV.

    When I first met him, he had been going through a tough time that was about to get horrible, being the caretaker for a sick family member, and he was looking for someone to cater to him emotionally and help him through this tough time in a new place.
    At the same time, I was an open book, looking for a way to change my life, which had long felt lacking and directionless, and it had been 5 years since I'd been in a relationship at all. I was intensely attracted to him from the get-go, and, as an empath made bitter by past experiences with people and eager to reconcile those feelings, I fit the role I was to play in his life to a T.

    I still am not sure what all he wanted for me (of course the obvious happiness), or if he even thought much of it, but nothing else about me mattered much to him other than that he needed me to be functional for his sake. He decided that I was there to play the role of supportive girlfriend. That's what he decided I meant to him. There was no real room for improvisation; there was no real room for me.
    He told me that he felt an appreciation that I had my own life and own interests--but I knew well that it better meant that it was more of a generalized courtesy he had for people in general, and there was not enough consideration there for him to value it specifically in me. Putting it simply, it's a characteristic of low empathy.

    That's not to say he was apathetic, though; quite the opposite. I think low-empathy can take on (but is not limited to) sociopathic or narcissistic flavors, but as a Social-dom, his was self-centric. He was compassionate and never unwilling to help in practical matters, but it all manifested in this self-revolving "cooperate with ME" way that checks out for a social 8. Except, he had these Ni-Fi horse-blinds on.

    He decided who was welcome (and who wasn't) in his life up front via intuition--practically all at once. Pair this cosmic intelligence with low empathy, and it became evident that the people he did select would have their blanks filled in with important values about himself that he assumed the right people in his life would have to have. In logical fashion, he was not wrong about them, until he discovered that he was. It's kind of the opposite of living vicariously though someone; in his mind, people lived vicariously through him, and that's how I came to settle into my role of supportive girlfriend.

    I would very willingly channel myself into him--exploring his life and inheriting his burdens. I wanted to make a difference for him, and I'm honestly glad I was able to, though I did it at the non-sustainable expense of my identity. In a way, it felt like all of the best and worst feelings wrapped up in one bittersweet package. His authority was addicting, he exuded this kind and gentle reassurance. "I need you to fold. Dive into me, and I will guide us", he seemed to say. There was nothing more practically comfortable to me than this (type 6's physical sensibilities?). But, on an emotional level, I was tormented by it. This comfortable feeling only felt exclusive to me while I was suiting the role. Would I eventually be denied this comfort if I were to find the strength to be the person I truly was--someone less functional and beholden to him than he took me for? Although complicated, the answer was ultimately yes.

    So, that's where my inability to communicate plays in. I couldn't find a way to hold onto my voice, and the core fear of having no identity became a reality. I compromised too much about myself, and the once good sense I seemed to have seemed to spiral uncontrollably out of my mind. I let so much of myself go, I clammed up and revealed little of actual relevance to him. Most every thought was of confusion and doubt, trying to understand why I felt so lost and how I could snap out of it. But I didn't want to be a constant, negative source. I wanted to be his strength while he pulled through his own tough time, but that's what kept me stuck there--my constant refusal to put fact first and entertain things not working out with him.
    But, there was a silver lining in it. That fire to persist in the face of emotional disadvantage was part of my iron constitution, and I had no doubt that I could handle every single one of our problems. He was going through more than I was, and I believed in the resilience of my emotional equipment. It was one of the few things that actually gave me some of that strength back--all the way up to the very end.

    But most of the time, I couldn't find it in me to be direct about anything, to either him or to myself. I remember him telling me that my lack of directness was one of the few things that bothered him.
    "You'll almost never meet anyone who holds you in contempt for being brave enough to speak your mind." I wholeheartedly agreed with him, but with no real sense of self, there's no will to assert. I know that this was an aspect about me that confused my ENTJ thoroughly--that my sense of self was in question enough to lose touch with its own will, let alone that it could strengthen and weaken and change. That's probably a whole other subject I could wander off endlessly on (assertiveness vs turbulence), but it is in the nature of my turbulence (where confidence is absent) that I can be reshaped in the momentum of upset and change.



    Here are a few other nuances I noticed about him that left a lasting impression on me:

    Part of this Ni-Fi thing he had going on, he strictly only surrounded himself with activities and events that he approved of and was vehemently stubborn about everything else. Occasionally, he would humor me, per se, and check out what I've suggested, but his facial expression always had this look of regret on his face for having done it. It was perhaps to a point where he saw taking suggestions from others as a means to manipulate him--a direct line to leave himself vulnerable and weak if he were to accept them. There's something about that seems abnormal to me, and I have my doubts that it's typical of ENTJs in this high of a frequency. Feel free to 'learn me some facts if I'm wrong.

    One thing that helped me empathize with him was this sense of waywardness in him that felt intensely familiar to me. His heart fix was 4w3, and the strict adherence of his principles seemed to work against him as much as it worked for him. It was his way. That independence is something (probably the only thing) he and I both shared. He could never really keep people in his life; he got along with people by being at odds with them, and he alienated himself from long-term friendships/relationships as a result. That in particular struck a chord with me.

    As well, there is this sadness in him that pained him every time he acknowledged it, and I felt it. His Regal Majesty, governed by an inconsolable melancholy on his black throne, always subject to the jeering of a single mocking crow, and it was in moments like these that I loved him the most. He holds them in disregard because it is vulnerability. But in his sadness, I see strength, and I only wish he would/could see the potential in it, and how much greater knowing it made him to me.

    One last thing to note is about the trust he asked me to blindly have in him. I only ever trusted him part-time. There was nothing disingenuous about the way he asked me to have full confidence in him, and honestly, I wanted to so badly, but to allow myself to trust blindly without accumulated evidence would have been idiotic of me. Though I know he didn't at all mean it this way, it's almost like asking me to forfeit my good sense--asking me to be out of my mind. It was only in hindsight that I knew that he was real. He meant everything he ever said, and that I really could trust him like that. It's an astounding realization, because pure authenticity like that is rare as hell. But still, I don't regret standing by my belief that trust is earned, not granted. This is the way that I refuse to change.
    L P thanked this post.


     
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