[INFP] INFPs with INTPs: fascination, passion, confusion, hurt and heartbreak. - Page 3

INFPs with INTPs: fascination, passion, confusion, hurt and heartbreak.

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This is a discussion on INFPs with INTPs: fascination, passion, confusion, hurt and heartbreak. within the INFP Forum - The Idealists forums, part of the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers category; Originally Posted by ethylester Another thing about INFP is that we NEED a space where we can talk about our ...

  1. #21
    INFP - The Idealists

    Quote Originally Posted by ethylester View Post
    Another thing about INFP is that we NEED a space where we can talk about our feelings. It's essential to our survival. I realized that my husband is NOT that place. As long as the INFP realizes that s/he can't rely on the INTP to be the sole provider of her/his emotional needs, then it can work. I need more than just a person I can vent to who may respond with two or three sentences after I've sat there crying for an hour. I need more than that and I take care of it elsewhere. (I come here, I volunteer at a crisis hotline, I train people to be crisis counselors, I have many journals, I have other friends, I used to see a therapist, etc) If I didn't have these extra means for helping me with my emotions, I don't think I would be happy at all. My INTP husband can try and try but I need more than what he is capable of. With this understood, we can both be happy.
    Hmm, see, this is the main problem I have with INTPs. It isn't safe to come to them for emotional support when I need them the most. If I can't tell them about my feelings without running the risk that they will make things worse, what is the point of even having a relationship? I want someone I can nurture, who will nurture me back, who trusts me with his deepest feelings and knows how to deal with mine. I think without that, a relationship would seem empty and meaningless. I mean, that is pretty much the only thing I need from a romantic partner. Everything else is icing. ...and it seems to be the thing INTPs are worst at.

    They always attract me because they seem deep enough and intelligent enough to understand me. I always assume that anyone that rational would be great at avoiding the usual mistakes that can ruin a relationship, but their knowledge only extends to trivial areas and never touches the core of what I need in order to be content. Also, it seems that there is very little I can provide that they would need. The things I most want to offer a partner, that I most want to be cherished for, are things the average INTP would not consider important or valuable. I would feel as though my needs were being neglected and my greatest skills were being wasted.

    Quote Originally Posted by rowingineden View Post
    We want our moral, personal, and emotional life/selves understood. We tend to be a bit on edge when people approach us and understand us from a highly functionalist or logical perspective because often we feel they are trying to convince us that our ethical framework and emotional experience are somehow invalid through rationality. It just doesn't seem that they're trying to understand us, then. It feels like they are trying to disprove or belittle us in some way.
    Yes, this. Instead of trying to empathize, they are more likely to dissect us in painful ways, and when we are upset, their form of help tends to be accusing us of doing things wrong. They seem perpetually argumentative and usually tend to make us defend, justify, and explain all of our reasons for our feelings and values, which are often personal, may have taken years to develop, and may have required many tangled paths for us to find. Each thing we care about is tied into everything else, so that the pieces all fit together a certain way, and trying to explain why we care would require telling someone how it relates to every other thing we have ever cared about. It is usually impossible, even though we do understand why, internally. We have it all present inside, all at once, like a web where each strand is supported by the surrounding strands.

    The problem with having to explain ourselves in order to be taken seriously is that language happens in a line, confined by the fact that time is a narrow thing that doesn't allow for words to be spoken simultaneously in layers. We may never be able to express the directions our minds move, so most of us resort to art, music, or abstract poetry in order to make up for this limitation. We also tend to use a lot of symbolism, since the things we are really wanting to explain are essences that don't have words. They are combinations of factors that must all be present a certain way in order for that essence to exist, and we look for other similar situations in which those factors are also present, to clarify. If situation 'A' has this quality, and situation 'B' also has this quality, even while all of these other things are different, then through this description of 'B' you should understand what I am trying to tell you about 'A,' but it doesn't usually work that way when talking to an INTP. INTPs tend to find lots of tangential reasons why B isn't really like A, and they miss the point. We know that B isn't really the same thing as A. We just don't have any better way of getting to the core of the thing we mean, which is the common thread that relates the two, but which is too abstract to define.


    I would not recommend an INTP/INFP relationship. I've done that too many times. I always think, "This one will be the exception, because he seems balanced. With love, we can work through anything," but I am always mistaken.




  2. #22
    INFP - The Idealists


    Quote Originally Posted by Kaj View Post
    Hello all you wonderful INFPs,

    I've noticed, from real life observation and especially from recent personality forum browsing that INTPs and INFPs are often attracted and fascinated by one another -- however that this combination rarely works out. The INFP will often leave the relationship heartbroken and disillusioned. The INTP will probably leave confused and hateful.



    When I've read INFP descriptions about INTPs ultimate failings, I find them particularly cutting. Firstly, because they are often very accurate. Secondly, I believe that INFPs really are the only type of girl that I have ever fallen love with, and ever will. I've had fun relationships with other types, but ... INFPs are just a completely different caliber to me.They stir a powerful irrational chord in me. So it strikes me as tragic that it seems to rarely work. I imagine it is far more tragic for you guys with your Fi stewing in hurt.

    I can't resist idealizing that I will find an INFP, and everything will be sublime and wonderful. I'm starting to suspect this is dangerous.

    So, any insights into the combination are welcome.
    Does what I'm saying ring true? Why/not, do you think?
    Are there any positive stories of INFPs with INTPs?
    How do you guys find us as friends? etc. etc.
    Ohhhh my. How I identify with you INTP brethren. Why can't it just work! lol.

  3. #23

    Quote Originally Posted by rowingineden View Post
    I think it depends on the maturity level/development of the INFP. I tend to be very aware of my inner emotional life and what's going on with me.

    Sometimes I do have trouble sorting and verbalizing it for others to understand, though. This is because I have so much going on in my head all the time that it has to be compressed into just little "impressions," concepts which can be expanded to be pages of text and pictures' worth of ideas. To turn those all into one coherent dialogue can be tricky.

    We want our moral, personal, and emotional life/selves understood. We tend to be a bit on edge when people approach us and understand us from a highly functionalist or logical perspective because often we feel they are trying to convince us that our ethical framework and emotional experience are somehow invalid through rationality. It just doesn't seem that they're trying to understand us, then. It feels like they are trying to disprove or belittle us in some way.

    This post hits it on the head for me. It's really not a lack of emotional support issue for me. I handle my own emotions just fine. I find the INTPs quite open emotionally with me, and I never felt stifled there. I don't really desire to discuss emotions that much anyway; it's rather uncomfortable for me. It's my feelings I like to discuss, and by feelings I mean thoughts on what is significant, valuable, important, meaningful, etc. Sometimes to break it down into purely intellectual terms is nearly impossible, or it would take such large amount of explanation that it would drain me to try. When I decline to explain myself, it is not because I don't have a good reason; it's that I don't have the energy. I especially won't use that energy if I suspect it will just be dismissed anyway, since it comes from an evaluative, idealistic reasoning (which is NOT lesser than dry, black & white logic). I didn't ask the INTPs to put their reasoning into feeling terms, and I'm perfectly capable of seeing the validity in their thoughts, so I can't see why they were so obtuse to mine (where is their Ne?!).

    I don't even mind being probed a bit. What I dislike is this sort of "prove it to me" attitude, as if the INTP is the sole arbiter of all that is true in the world. I need someone to respect me as an intellectual peer. I don't mind explaining my evaluative reasoning process to a point, but I do mind the condescending attitude. I don't have a hard time grasping the reasoning of another person & their perspective, without it being detailed & broken down. I suppose INFPs are seeking a holistic grasp of their viewpoint, and I don't see why Ne is failing the INTP there. I suspect the pedantic approach stems from some insecurity of theirs; I don't know what else to chalk it up to.
    snail, daywithoutrain, susurration and 9 others thanked this post.

  4. #24
    INFP - The Idealists

    That sums up many of my feelings on the subject that I found difficult to express OrangeAppled, right down to the conclusion that the pedantic and condescending attitude stems from some kind of insecurity. I find it frustrating that I can understand them but they seem unable to understand me. Perhaps it is the NF combination which allows for easier understanding of other people's perspectives?
    OrangeAppled, Aelthwyn, Kaj and 2 others thanked this post.

  5. #25
    INFP - The Idealists

    My best friend is an INTP and I've been friends with her for eight years.
    We sometimes get in fights but she's the only person I tell my secrets to.
    I only feel comfortable around her.
    Being friends with her has made me like, a much better person. Because now I can make compromises when before I would just cut people out of my life.
    We get mad, we talk about it, we apologize, and we move on.
    ethylester, Luke, Kaj and 4 others thanked this post.

  6. #26
    INFP - The Idealists

    I can definitely understand all the comments about dealing with condescension and arrogance. One of my very T strong friends seems only interested in knowing my opinion or method of doing something, for the sole reason of criticizing it and comparing it to his own far superior opinion or method, even if it's extremely shallow and amateurish (acting as though I don't know aything about the subject and he's a total master, even though I've been into it for ages and he just learnt about it the night before).

    It's become so routine and predictable, how he does it. Sometimes he tries to mask it and be more tactful, and I appreciate that and play along, even though it's totally transparent to me. But usually he just asks me a question, gives me 10 seconds for an answer like I'm on a quiz show, and then extrapolates whatever small, clumsy thing I said and judges my entire view based on it, says why it's foolish, and then goes on for a few hours endlessly ranting about his own views. I've just learned to nod along and not get involved, and when I have to say something, I don my own uncomfortable T mask to get by, which I hate doing.

    I'm not going to generalize based on type, so for whoever those kinds of people are, regardless of type, it's best to keep them at arm's length, and behind a glass wall.
    OrangeAppled, Kaj, lumpofcoal and 1 others thanked this post.

  7. #27
    INFP - The Idealists

    Quote Originally Posted by yourstruly View Post
    My best friend is an INTP and I've been friends with her for eight years.
    We sometimes get in fights but she's the only person I tell my secrets to.
    I only feel comfortable around her.
    Being friends with her has made me like, a much better person. Because now I can make compromises when before I would just cut people out of my life.
    We get mad, we talk about it, we apologize, and we move on.
    That's what I really love about the relationship between the two types. The relationships are difficult but there are so many opportunities for growth. As an INFP I think they really challenge me to be a more compromising and diplomatic person. Some of my best friends have been INTP and yes there is conflict but there seems to be a lot of mutual benefit as well.
    susurration, ethylester, yourstruly and 1 others thanked this post.

  8. #28
    Unknown Personality


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This post hits it on the head for me. It's really not a lack of emotional support issue for me. I handle my own emotions just fine. I find the INTPs quite open emotionally with me, and I never felt stifled there. I don't really desire to discuss emotions that much anyway; it's rather uncomfortable for me. It's my feelings I like to discuss, and by feelings I mean thoughts on what is significant, valuable, important, meaningful, etc. Sometimes to break it down into purely intellectual terms is nearly impossible, or it would take such large amount of explanation that it would drain me to try. When I decline to explain myself, it is not because I don't have a good reason; it's that I don't have the energy. I especially won't use that energy if I suspect it will just be dismissed anyway, since it comes from an evaluative, idealistic reasoning (which is NOT lesser than dry, black & white logic). I didn't ask the INTPs to put their reasoning into feeling terms, and I'm perfectly capable of seeing the validity in their thoughts, so I can't see why they were so obtuse to mine (where is their Ne?!).

    I don't even mind being probed a bit. What I dislike is this sort of "prove it to me" attitude, as if the INTP is the sole arbiter of all that is true in the world. I need someone to respect me as an intellectual peer. I don't mind explaining my evaluative reasoning process to a point, but I do mind the condescending attitude. I don't have a hard time grasping the reasoning of another person & their perspective, without it being detailed & broken down. I suppose INFPs are seeking a holistic grasp of their viewpoint, and I don't see why Ne is failing the INTP there. I suspect the pedantic approach stems from some insecurity of theirs; I don't know what else to chalk it up to.
    I am the same. I have been the one to hurt nt's, rather than the other way around. I don't really need exceptional emotional support, unless i'm in a very dark period, and they are the type of person to at least be willing to participate in such a thing. The emotional front has never been such a big problem with me. I don't get insulted that easily or 'butt hurt' over everything. Though now that I mention it, thinking types, intps' in particular, seem to over exaggerate emotional responses. They can sit with an angry face and snarky tone for several hours, then snort at me when I frown and ask why i'm getting angry- when i'm not even very angry at all.

    I think the point about -understanding- can be a huge problem, and i've mentioned that before. Analysing can result in good outcomes most of the time. One can have perfect reasoning skills, however your conclusion is only as sound as your premises. Sometimes the intp can lose sense of the big picture without appropriate data input. There is no chance of being understood when they can't put all the pieces of their puzzle together. It doesn't make sense based on the pieces of the puzzle, and this cognitive dissonance is not a good state to be in. From my experience, if it doesn't make sense to them, they aren't going to be able to 'understand' (that seems like an obvious point, but i'm refering to 'understanding' as that holistic grasping you referred to, OA). I think the same thing can happen to an infp really, losing sense of the big picture and being caught up in what is 'true' or 'right' to me. Our internal puzzles are everything to us.

    I empathise with intps', I really do. I think they are the true 'outsiders' of mbti. i'm never satisfied with the lack of depth in analysis anywhere and I like debating and analysing the death out of things (though I keep it all internal) but not to the depth they do. Not even the other nt's really analyse to the extent intp's do (well, the well developed ones). I can't help but think about how unsatisfied they probably are concerning most things, just as we are :\ but perhaps for slightly different reasons.

    I think you make a good point about 'feeling' OA. I like to remain detached from most things, but discussing values and adding in a little subjectivity, seems to be the way infps' bond with people.

    Intps' are so deathly attractive to me, I think it's the pull of introverted judging. We need depth just as they do, and it's hard to find it in other types who aren't dominant judgers. But there is so much to learn about each other in the infp/intp combo. I think it's fair to say the closer we come to each other, the more we see how different the way we operate is. Yet it's strangely familiar.
    daywithoutrain, Kitagawa Megumi and Kaj thanked this post.

  9. #29
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Thank you everyone for your comments. This is really illuminating for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ethylester View Post
    I remember he once complained to me that if felt like he had to ask permission whenever he wanted to do something or go somewhere. I took that kind of hard because I really didn't see that, and I had no idea why he thought that. I thought I was always encouraging him to go off and do his thing.
    It sounds like you are extremely easy going, and can't be the problem. I think INTPs hate even the slightest commitments.

    If his feelings are not coming from you, then they are coming from within. He has the contrary feelings of dedication to you and his wish to be utterly interpendent. If so, its a good thing. It means he's considering what you want, even if he want's to bury his head in lizards.

    Quote Originally Posted by ethylester View Post
    We could go off on tangents for hours and laugh and laugh about nothing. Pure fantasy. ...To me, THAT is what is amazing about our relationship. THAT is what keeps me coming back for more.
    I hear ya.

    Quote Originally Posted by ethylester View Post
    Another thing about INFP is that we NEED a space where we can talk about our feelings. It's essential to our survival. I realized that my husband is NOT that place. As long as the INFP realizes that s/he can't rely on the INTP to be the sole provider of her/his emotional needs, then it can work. I need more than just a person I can vent to who may respond with two or three sentences after I've sat there crying for an hour. ... My INTP husband can try and try but I need more than what he is capable of.
    This is frustrating to read, but it rings true. I would actually love to be there for people in difficulty. I wish more people would confide in me, but it doesn't happen very often. This is probably because of of my desire to clarify and troubleshoot.

    If someone is depressed, I will want to tell them what I know about psychology. If they have just had an argument with person X, I will fill in for X, and try to objectvely clarify what X said and why, to rid the situation of misunderstanding.

    I will always patiently to a person's problem the first time. However, if the person returns to me repeatedly with the same problem and bad feelings, having dismissed my advice, then I will begin to be impatient, and reiterate my advice. And so, I'm sure that's why people rarely seek out my confidence.

    I can see the problems of this, but it's very hard to be otherwise.

  10. #30
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by snail View Post
    Yes, this. Instead of trying to empathize, they are more likely to dissect us in painful ways, and when we are upset, their form of help tends to be accusing us of doing things wrong. They seem perpetually argumentative and usually tend to make us defend, justify, and explain all of our reasons for our feelings and values.
    Yeah, so this is like what I described above from the other perspective.

    When trying to understand stuff, including how others feel, we can be argumentative, saying things we don't completely believe, devil's-advocatey or whatever, so that we can test and thereby understand another's perspective in different contexts.
    It's like sending out feelers. We kind of need to do it, and it's usually done with best intentions, I think, though it may not look that way.


    Quote Originally Posted by snail View Post
    The problem with having to explain ourselves in order to be taken seriously is that language happens in a line, confined by the fact that time is a narrow thing that doesn't allow for words to be spoken simultaneously in layers. We may never be able to express the directions our minds move, so most of us resort to art, music, or abstract poetry in order to make up for this limitation. We also tend to use a lot of symbolism, since the things we are really wanting to explain are essences that don't have words... We know that B isn't really the same thing as A. We just don't have any better way of getting to the core of the thing we mean, which is the common thread that relates the two, but which is too abstract to define.
    Thanks, this description is extremely helpful and illuminating.
    rogosk thanked this post.


     
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