[INFP] INFPs with INTPs: fascination, passion, confusion, hurt and heartbreak. - Page 4

INFPs with INTPs: fascination, passion, confusion, hurt and heartbreak.

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This is a discussion on INFPs with INTPs: fascination, passion, confusion, hurt and heartbreak. within the INFP Forum - The Idealists forums, part of the NF's Temperament Forum- The Dreamers category; On my way to understanding who I am I guess. It's quite fascinating and comforting to find people like you. ...

  1. #31
    INFP - The Idealists

    On my way to understanding who I am I guess. It's quite fascinating and comforting to find people like you. Of course no one is the same, but when you see someone say something awesome and relate to it... it's just nice. I also feel like there is no judgment here because we are all perceives who fear judgment ourselves and I really like that.
    Kaj, Latoslapise and PerfectSky thanked this post.

  2. #32
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    . It's my feelings I like to discuss, and by feelings I mean thoughts on what is significant, valuable, important, meaningful, etc. Sometimes to break it down into purely intellectual terms is nearly impossible, or it would take such large amount of explanation that it would drain me to try. When I decline to explain myself, it is not because I don't have a good reason; it's that I don't have the energy. I especially won't use that energy if I suspect it will just be dismissed anyway, since it comes from an evaluative, idealistic reasoning (which is NOT lesser than dry, black & white logic).
    This is a strife area. I think INTPs gain energy from this kind of intense analytical discussion every now and then. Without it, we atrophy. I guess that's why I'm on this site these days, since in my current situation, I'm unable to get it from the people around me.

    When an investigative conversation move in any other direction (i.e. what most people would consider a normal conversation), it can be incredibly draining for us, because we are challenging the assumptions of practically every statement in our heads. So, if we can control the the direction of the discussion, we take it through everything systematically in the manner that you describe. And, if not, we are often forced to withdraw, zone out and observe these strange mammals surrounding us.

    Some of us develop conversation skills and chameleonic techniques to get by, but this will always be a problem. As soon as something is said that we feel has not been examined sufficiently, we will be seething and itching to point it out. It can be upsetting even in certain situations, when the topic is emotive, dear to our hearts, but discussed vaguely or with errors.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I suspect the pedantic approach stems from some insecurity of theirs; I don't know what else to chalk it up to.
    Then please allow me to elaborate, as you hit a nerve there.

    If you are implying that we are trying to prove our worth / superiority to other people by being pedants, then I strongly disagree. We are pedantic. We are grammar fascists. I can very much see how someone, trying to make an elaborate point would be infuriated by criticism of a seemingly irrelevant small technical detail, or word choice. We INTPs need to learn when too much of that is inappropriate in social situations, and the more mature we are, the delicate we can be about this (we can never eliminate it). Our pedantry also cripples our own actions, for example when we need to organize for a future plan, or when we need to write something in a timely fashion (if you guys knew how long I spend thinking about how to word these posts...you might also notice that I've had to edit just about every post I've made)

    So it is certainly an unhelpful foible in most of life's situations. But please don't suspect our motives.

    I don't fully understand it myself, but the need for absolute clarity at every level is something very much to do with our cognitive functioning. We simply need to arrive at a near perfect understanding of what we are examining. In spite of the problems, I have to be proud of this, because it is absolutely linked to who I am, what I am made of at the core.

    Maybe that wasn't what you meant at all.
    Last edited by Kaj; 11-16-2010 at 07:21 AM.

  3. #33
    INTP - The Thinkers

    I'm sorry if I'm bombarding you guys with too much INTPness. Inadvertently, your insights are very much helping me to understand myself and my T persona, and I thank you for it.

    susurration, ethylester, mushr00m and 1 others thanked this post.

  4. #34
    INTP - The Thinkers

    Nova your post was super awesome.
    This, in particular touched me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    I empathise with intps', I really do. I think they are the true 'outsiders' of mbti. i'm never satisfied with the lack of depth in analysis anywhere and I like debating and analysing the death out of things (though I keep it all internal) but not to the depth they do. Not even the other nt's really analyse to the extent intp's do (well, the well developed ones). I can't help but think about how unsatisfied they probably are concerning most things, just as we are :\ but perhaps for slightly different reasons.
    I feel gratitude for your observation here. When we are forced to deal with the real world and people, we are extremely unsatisfied nearly all of the time. And we feel very lonely in our observations (which is why your comment is so valued). It may sound arrogant, but we feel that most people are unable to see what what is clear to us. If we skim a newspaper, the omissions, faulty assumptions and poorly defined terms stick out to us like glitter, and we can trace clearly how that has lead to a false conclusion. Never mind all the other toxic forms of mind control that propagates power these days.

    Big problems occur though when we apply this to understanding people though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nova View Post
    Intps' are so deathly attractive to me, I think it's the pull of introverted judging. We need depth just as they do, and it's hard to find it in other types who aren't dominant judgers. But there is so much to learn about each other in the infp/intp combo. I think it's fair to say the closer we come to each other, the more we see how different the way we operate is. Yet it's strangely familiar.
    This is curious, I haven't come across 'introverted judging' before. So that's common to INTF/Ps and might explain some of the connection we have? Can you say more, or link?

  5. #35
    INFP - The Idealists

    She's referring to cognitive functions. INFPs' dominant function is Fi, whereas INTPs' dominant function is Ti. Feeling and Thinking are both "judging" classes of cognitive functions, so turned inward, they are both "Ji" or "introverted Judging."

    This is what is perhaps missing in regular MBTI descriptions. When we talk of MBTI "Js," we are speaking of people who have their "Je" function (which would be Fe or Te) further up than their "Ji" function (which would be Fi or Ti).

    Je - Judging oriented externally, being compelled to organize one's external world. (Traditional "J"-associated traits - tends to keep spaces neat, keep a schedule, etc.)
    Ji - Judging oriented internally, being compelled to organize one's internal world. (Manifests as an internal framework by which pretty much everything is evaluated.)

    The difference between an INFP (Fi) and INTP (Ti) is really just the basis of our internal framework.
    Fi - an internal framework evaluating everything morally, emotionally, and by how they affect people.
    Ti - an internal framework evaluating everything logically.

    I think probably that when INFPs and INTPs discuss things, what we find to be a problem is we both think each other are "missing the point" because we are evaluating information from completely different perspectives.
    daywithoutrain, Aelthwyn, Lune and 1 others thanked this post.

  6. #36
    INFP - The Idealists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaj View Post
    This is frustrating to read, but it rings true. I would actually love to be there for people in difficulty. I wish more people would confide in me, but it doesn't happen very often. This is probably because of of my desire to clarify and troubleshoot.

    If someone is depressed, I will want to tell them what I know about psychology. If they have just had an argument with person X, I will fill in for X, and try to objectvely clarify what X said and why, to rid the situation of misunderstanding.

    I will always patiently to a person's problem the first time. However, if the person returns to me repeatedly with the same problem and bad feelings, having dismissed my advice, then I will begin to be impatient, and reiterate my advice. And so, I'm sure that's why people rarely seek out my confidence.

    I can see the problems of this, but it's very hard to be otherwise.

    Yeah, those seem to be the main relationship killers. The desire to "clarify and troubleshoot" by taking sides with the person we've just had a conflict with, in order to change how we feel, when what we need most is to feel supported and validated, can be devastating. I've had serious emotional breakdowns after being subjected to INTP "helping" methods, because I was already in a state of high anxiety, barely able to handle the intensity of my feelings after a painful, stressful conflict with someone else in which I felt criticized and invalidated unjustly and had to defend values that should have been self-evident. I didn't have the strength to fight any more, so I broke down when the INTP dealt with it by re-explaining everything the other person just said, validating the aggressor's hurtful opinions and beliefs, and attempting to convince me that he wasn't really so bad. Then he made me fight over the same values as he attempted to pick them apart. In the process of trying to help me, he became more of the very thing that caused me to need comforting in the first place. It made me feel very alone and accused. It was the exact opposite of what I needed. If an INFP comes to you for support after a conflict, the last thing she can usually handle is more conflict over whether or not the conflict was justified, or a continuation of the same conflict in which you take on the role of the person who caused her to need your support. It is a form of betrayal.

    Don't ever try to convince an INFP to stop feeling what she is feeling, especially while she is upset. Let her feel it, and tell her it is okay to feel it. Tell her she has a right to her feelings, and that you love her even when she is sad, angry or afraid. That is the best way to help. Usually, just knowing you are supportive and take her feelings seriously will be enough to make her feel okay again.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kaj View Post
    I'm sorry if I'm bombarding you guys with too much INTPness. Inadvertently, your insights are very much helping me to understand myself and my T persona, and I thank you for it.

    That's fine. I'm glad you're interested in understanding why the INTP/INFP thing is a disaster. We're incompatible at the very core, despite usually feeling a strong attraction for each other at first.



    Aelthwyn and Kaj thanked this post.

  7. #37
    INFP - The Idealists

    One thing I want to say is that everyone is different. We need to remember this when we're referring to each other. I keep hearing all this negative stuff about INFP & INTP relationships and it makes me really defensive because I am in a marriage that I believe works beautifully. We can't negate the fact that some people DO make it work, and it can work for others as well. When I hear the word "disaster" regarding the INFP/INTP relationship, I feel attacked and defensive. My marriage is certainly not a disaster. Everyone is different, there aren't just 16 people in the world. There are billions. If you have had only discouraging relationships with INTPs then I can see why you'd feel like it would never work. But please don't assume the whole concept is flawed regarding other people. these are still just generalizations.

    Had to get that out. I hope I didn't offend.

    Anyway, I want to say that it's true, you should never ever in a million years tell an INFP that what they are feeling is wrong. That is DEATH. However, I really appreciate a logical viewpoint every once in a while, especially when I am being illogical. I also appreciate humor when I am feeling upset over something petty. the only time I don't appreciate humor or someone pointing out my irrationality is when I am notably upset, like crying. At this point, all I want is empathy and understanding. There are different levels here for me. If I'm having road rage and you tell me to relax, that is actually helpful to me. I appreciate you bringing me back to earth and reminding me that it will all be ok. If I'm in tears because I'm feeling worthless or depressed, I don't need anyone to tell me that I have no reason to feel that way. that makes me feel even more alone, misunderstood, isolated. It does help if you tell me that you don't think I'm worthless in attempt to cheer me up, but don't tell me that I'm wrong to feel that way. It's a fine line.

    The whole INTP thing about them trying to prove superiority sounds so weird to me because, as I mentioned above, everyone is different and my husband is really not like that. It sounds to me that Kaj, if I may say so, you don't feel like you have to prove superiority either. I get absolutely no tone of arrogance in your posts on here. You actually come across as extremely open minded and ready to learn, objectively. You remind me of my husband. :) Even in your word usage, your Yeats quote, your eloquent descriptions, the fact you have to edit every post, etc. You want your point to come across as informed and precise. I admire that deeply. You seem to realize that everyone's entitled to their opinion and you respect that. I love my husband for this. I love how he never judges anyone, never has a bad thing to say about a soul. That is, unless they seem like buffoons to him, then he can rip 'em apart precisely and skillfully. It's not that you are judging their character, you are judging their reasoning. As an INFP who, apparently can be irrational at times (from what I hear, though I never think I'm being irrational, heh) , I actually LIKE it when people point out my flaws in reasoning. I appreciate it. I admire it. I strive to be rational, I want to be reasonable. I want to learn how.
    daywithoutrain, Psilo, Now and Then and 6 others thanked this post.

  8. #38
    INFP - The Idealists

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaj View Post

    This is frustrating to read, but it rings true. I would actually love to be there for people in difficulty. I wish more people would confide in me, but it doesn't happen very often. This is probably because of of my desire to clarify and troubleshoot.

    If someone is depressed, I will want to tell them what I know about psychology. If they have just had an argument with person X, I will fill in for X, and try to objectvely clarify what X said and why, to rid the situation of misunderstanding.

    I will always patiently to a person's problem the first time. However, if the person returns to me repeatedly with the same problem and bad feelings, having dismissed my advice, then I will begin to be impatient, and reiterate my advice. And so, I'm sure that's why people rarely seek out my confidence.

    I can see the problems of this, but it's very hard to be otherwise.
    Your second paragraph might be why some INFP's have issues with INTP's. When you look at someone's problem from a general scope, you are indirectly dismissing that individual's feelings. You aren't looking at it from a subjective stand point, you are trying to be objective. With emotions, you cannot be objective. You simply can't. Emotions come and go without reason many times, they are subjective. That's why people have different reactions to the same situation. You can control the situation but you can't control people's emotional reaction to it. See what I'm saying? It's not like a science experiment where the control group is all the same and then the other groups have different environmental factors applied and they have a certain result. The environment might always be the same but the reaction, depending on the person, is going to be different. I know you know this, I'm just saying this might be why INFP's take issue. INFP's need everything to be applied to them, not to the rest of the world, and how the rest of the world might react. "Who cares about the rest of the world, this is ME, not anyone else" might be the INFP's inner thoughts. So if you compare them to everyone else, it's not going to get anywhere besides the infp feeling more isolated and alone.

    And as for the repetition of advice for the same problem, I can see how that is irritating. You want to fix their problem, you want to make it better. When it isn't better, you feel like they aren't listening to you, or like your advice was wrong because they still feel bad. I totally get this. I work with people who seem to constantly be in crisis and it doesn't matter what you say to them, the next day it's a new crisis. It's really frustrating. And I remember a few times when my depression was really bad and I tried to tell my husband about it. This happened often enough to where he became frustrated with me and said something along the lines of it being pointless to keep talking about it if I wasn't going to do anything about how I felt. He didn't think I was being active enough to fight my negative feelings. This pissed me off and I just shut down from him. I told myself I wasn't going to talk to him anymore about how I felt depressed because I also saw it as pointless to talk to someone who isn't going to give me empathy. So what happened after this? I went and saw a therapist who helped me tremendously. That's what I mean about INFP not relying on INTP for emotional needs. INFP needs to look elsewhere when the emotions are too hard to handle on her own.

  9. #39

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    One major problem is, these INTPs would never apologize & never admit when they were wrong. They'd always make some excuse instead of owning up to a mistake. This can be a weak spot in me also, but hanging out with them highlighted my compassionate & humble side. They'd also seem very unaware or in denial of their own emotional motivations. Emotional motivations come through loud & clear to an INFP, like nails on a chalkboard, and when someone claims they are objective or unbiased when they are not, it just seems delusional & arrogant. Basically, those tiffs which ended the relationship could have been resolved with a sincere apology & admitting of an irrational moment. I found myself making peace, but I never saw an effort on their part, so I'd cut them out of my life. It's needs to be a two-way street when it comes to compromise.
    Yes, I'd say I tend to be a bit egotistical. Though there is a more detailed explanation. The last thing an INTP wants is to admit that s/he made an unjustified mistake based off of emotions, because that would be a logically flawed decision. If they speak of it again, they admit to themselves that it happened. They're actually less concerned that you'll bring judgment on their head; in fact, many are sorry, but when they make excuses, they've been reminded of the situation and automatically try to justify the action to themselves (out of habit as much as guilt). When they start muttering, the Thinking function has taken over and doesn't let the Feeling point out that all the other person wants is to hear the words "I'm sorry."

    Emotional motivations of an INTP are either unnoticed by the INTP or unspoken of for the above reason. Hope this explains a little.

  10. #40

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaj View Post
    Then please allow me to elaborate, as you hit a nerve there.

    If you are implying that we are trying to prove our worth / superiority to other people by being pedants, then I strongly disagree. We are pedantic. We are grammar fascists. I can very much see how someone, trying to make an elaborate point would be infuriated by criticism of a seemingly irrelevant small technical detail, or word choice. We INTPs need to learn when too much of that is inappropriate in social situations, and the more mature we are, the delicate we can be about this (we can never eliminate it). Our pedantry also cripples our own actions, for example when we need to organize for a future plan, or when we need to write something in a timely fashion (if you guys knew how long I spend thinking about how to word these posts...you might also notice that I've had to edit just about every post I've made)

    So it is certainly an unhelpful foible in most of life's situations. But please don't suspect our motives.

    I don't fully understand it myself, but the need for absolute clarity at every level is something very much to do with our cognitive functioning. We simply need to arrive at a near perfect understanding of what we are examining. In spite of the problems, I have to be proud of this, because it is absolutely linked to who I am, what I am made of at the core.

    Maybe that wasn't what you meant at all.
    I agree--our motives for being picky aren't insecurity. I think our word choice and detail pickiness stems from this:
    Poor word choice-->incorrectly perceived context
    incorrectly perceived context-->used as a fact in a decision
    incorrect fact in decision-->wrong decision
    wrong decision-->incorrect perception of motives, possible emotional complication of others, untruth

    Or, for us teaching types (some of whom are employed as teachers, others like me not)
    Poor word choice-->incorrectly perceived context/connotation
    incorrectly perceived context/connotation-->misunderstanding
    misunderstanding-->spread of misunderstanding, untruth, incorrect data going through the system.

    It's either this train of thought, being consciously thought through, or the iNtuition sending off an alarm from negative association. Either way, the INTPs view minute incorrectness as bad, and if corrected when small, can't cause major harm later. To an INTP, incorrect data circulating around the populace which they could have prevented is a nightmare and to be avoided at all costs. If this means slightly annoying one person, the logical response is "So be it. One person annoyed with me is fine if a hundred are saved from ignorance."

    Of course, this is a major overestimation of how much most people pass on the things they know, usually based off of the INTP's willingness to teach TWLs--Those Who Listen. Does this explain it? I hope so!
    Aelthwyn and Kaj thanked this post.


     
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