[INTJ] Philosophy and the INTJ

Philosophy and the INTJ

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This is a discussion on Philosophy and the INTJ within the INTJ Forum - The Scientists forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Hello my friends. I've had an extended vacations from this place. Its great that more and more people are discovering ...

  1. #1
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Philosophy and the INTJ

    Hello my friends.
    I've had an extended vacations from this place. Its great that more and more people are discovering this whole MBTI thing.
    While the ideas that Jung produces are very abstract. He does take on the fundamental bones of Freud. This shouldn't be forgotten. Freud derived his ideas from some other source, mostly existentialism which was the rage at the time. Which in itself was rooted in something else... (big picture) philosophy.

    Its important to figure out the source of things. Instead of asking a question of why... for instance why do magnets repel? We should be asking what... what makes magnets repel? remain objective (thank you Feynman).

    So my question is... using the simplest language and means possible... what is a personality... after you define this... what is INTJ? this can't be to you alone... no, because then the definition is subjective. Your definition must be objective. It must stand on its own. So factual, that if you spin it any direction it remains the same.

    Lets give an example 2+2= 4. always.

    SO... I wish to put your great minds to use. Lets build a foundation. We start with what is I? What is a person? What is personality? Then we build from there.

    Where will this lead us?

    I will begin.

    A cell is defined as the simplest form of life. It includes DNA/RNA and a mitochondria along with secondary crap that facilitates these things.. It has the ability to communicate with other cells. An organ is a community of cells that provide a shared function. An organism is a thing with organs. A thing with organs is life.

    Now. we must distinguish the humans from life because they are different.

    Just to be clear this cannot be done without INTP's or any other type. So please...

    we welcome you.



  2. #2

    An organism can be a single cell so it does not need organs.
    That secondary crap you mentioned most likely includes organelles which the single celled organism would be comprised of.
    Things do not need to have organs to be considered alive.

  3. #3
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by NT the DC View Post
    An organism can be a single cell so it does not need organs.
    That secondary crap you mentioned most likely includes organelles which the single celled organism would be comprised of.
    Things do not need to have organs to be considered alive.
    beautiful. thank you. You have refined my premise. I wish that you would continue to do so.

    SO a cell then has many organs called organelles. These are then necessary to be considered an organism.

    The mind is among an object that is an organism with many organs.
    How is it that the mind came to be?
    Then what is the next step.
    NT the DC thanked this post.

  4. #4

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. rozay View Post
    beautiful. thank you. You have refined my premise. I wish that you would continue to do so.

    SO a cell then has many organs called organelles. These are then necessary to be considered an organism.

    The mind is among an object that is an organism with many organs.
    How is it that the mind came to be?
    Then what is the next step.
    Your description of an organ was accurate: a collection of cells which provide a shared function.
    An organelle are things like the mitochondria you mentioned - things that are vital to a functioning cell however they are not organs.

    Organelles should be considered a precursor to life - yes.
    There are those that would argue that something which lack organelles like a virus are alive but what is taught in most science course is that: The cell is the fundamental unit of life.
    mr. rozay thanked this post.

  5. #5

    I can't say I know as much as I'd like to know about personality.
    When it comes to identity of self you have to start with some of where it comes from.

    Here are some things I know:

    Some aspects of personality are determined by genes.
    Twin studies have shown similarities in personality traits and psychiatric illness of identical twins who were even raised apart.
    Ex: identical twins had similar deficits in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex and superior temporal gyrus associated with schizophrenia.

    Some aspects of personality are related to health/function of an area:
    Looking at lobotomy outcomes and brain diseases we know that aspects of damage to our brain can shape personality.
    For example: Phineas Gage, epilepsy studies

    There is the aspect of our personality which were are not even aware of - implicit memory.
    Much of what we accomplish is done without conscious thought.
    A great deal of what we experience and think cannot be directly accessed by our conscious thought.
    Many times we cannot explain what motivates our actions.

    Explicit memory is largely associated with the hippocampus.
    Both memory systems overlap.
    The current model is that: an individual is not aware of most of the mental processes underlying our habits, much of mental life is unconscious.

    A cool thing to consider is our sense of self is a product of two independent circuits in our brain.
    Each cerebral hemisphere has it's own sense of awareness and they talk to one another.
    This was discovered when the corpus callosum was severed as a treatment for epilepsy.
    Both respective hands associated with individual lobes of the brain acted independently of one another each with their own objective.

    Personality is so complicated and multifactoral but that is what keeps it interesting.
    Essentially it's all about neuronal pathways and trying to identify which pathways are responsible for what aspects of personality.

    That is why I am studying more about it, so I can be more specific with the pathways and what aspects they control and how to stimulate them. It's also about understanding what pathways might be damaged in people and what sort of outcome you'd expect to see. There are brain lesions which lead to more religious ideation for example (not to say that all religious ideation is a product of lesions ... heh).
    mr. rozay thanked this post.

  6. #6

    I think the endosymbiotic theory is interesting, philosophically, because it suggests that organelles like mitochondria and chloroplasts were originally other single celled organisms who formed a symbiotic relationship with the ancestors of the cell.

    I don't really see what it has to do with personality, except I guess maybe it's sort of surprising to think of your cells as possibly originating from a relationship between two or more single celled organisms (with mitochondria even having a separate set of DNA from the rest of you, that is only passed maternally), just like it's kind of surprising to think of the left and the right brain almost acting as if they are in a relationship with each other, but individual.

    Though I guess the concept of having a hidden 'other' inside of us is also present with Jung and Freud, with stuff like the anima/animus, the 'unconscious,' or the id, superego etc.

    Seems like some psychology concepts look at inner relationships and dynamics between parts of ourselves, which are described in a similar way as the relationship dynamics we can have with the world around us.

    Idk--weird to think of a personality as being relationships between one's 'self' and other aspects of the self, but that's what Jung was all about. Also weird how symbiosis is also a theory for how multi-cellular life evolved.
    mr. rozay and NT the DC thanked this post.

  7. #7
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by NT the DC View Post
    I can't say I know as much as I'd like to know about personality.
    When it comes to identity of self you have to start with some of where it comes from.

    Here are some things I know:

    Some aspects of personality are determined by genes.
    Twin studies have shown similarities in personality traits and psychiatric illness of identical twins who were even raised apart.
    Ex: identical twins had similar deficits in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex and superior temporal gyrus associated with schizophrenia.

    Some aspects of personality are related to health/function of an area:
    Looking at lobotomy outcomes and brain diseases we know that aspects of damage to our brain can shape personality.
    For example: Phineas Gage, epilepsy studies

    There is the aspect of our personality which were are not even aware of - implicit memory.
    Much of what we accomplish is done without conscious thought.
    A great deal of what we experience and think cannot be directly accessed by our conscious thought.
    Many times we cannot explain what motivates our actions.

    Explicit memory is largely associated with the hippocampus.
    Both memory systems overlap.
    The current model is that: an individual is not aware of most of the mental processes underlying our habits, much of mental life is unconscious.

    A cool thing to consider is our sense of self is a product of two independent circuits in our brain.
    Each cerebral hemisphere has it's own sense of awareness and they talk to one another.
    This was discovered when the corpus callosum was severed as a treatment for epilepsy.
    Both respective hands associated with individual lobes of the brain acted independently of one another each with their own objective.

    Personality is so complicated and multifactoral but that is what keeps it interesting.
    Essentially it's all about neuronal pathways and trying to identify which pathways are responsible for what aspects of personality.

    That is why I am studying more about it, so I can be more specific with the pathways and what aspects they control and how to stimulate them. It's also about understanding what pathways might be damaged in people and what sort of outcome you'd expect to see. There are brain lesions which lead to more religious ideation for example (not to say that all religious ideation is a product of lesions ... heh).
    and this is so much more beautiful than you think.
    What is the common denominator among these ideas?
    Its that communication among cells and organs is where this consciousness begin. Memories.

    There is the brain, which is an organ. The brain has its own parts. Those parts communicate with each other via chemical reactions. Memories are a means of communication. Memories combine and form some kind of conclusion.

    Memories then become the question.. where do they come from? There is an idea in philosophy where when a person is born... are they born with a blank slate? where experience forms their minds? Or are they born from past experience? Memories somehow are carried down to the next generation via DNA. But we must first ask... what is a memory?

    The latest evidence shows that both occur. That past experience from evolutionary forces carries over to the next generation. AKA responses like blushing or adrenaline in a heightened state. As well as new experiences form.

    So we can conclude that thus far... our overall experience is a conglomeration of cells with organs that communicate. They have memories. Which all organs do, evidenced by immune systems, which experience and respond. They then learn from those experience and are able to respond even better the next time.

    So then a child then is born. A conglomeration of cells with memories and instincts. I need to eat, therefore organs communicate this to other organs. I need to survive, and in order to do this I need to reproduce and make more cells. Make more humans even.

    still where does consciousness come in? A monkey does the same. The dog does the same as well as a bird. How do we differentiate? we have memory so, does a dog.
    NT the DC thanked this post.

  8. #8
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by WickerDeer View Post
    I think the endosymbiotic theory is interesting, philosophically, because it suggests that organelles like mitochondria and chloroplasts were originally other single celled organisms who formed a symbiotic relationship with the ancestors of the cell.

    I don't really see what it has to do with personality, except I guess maybe it's sort of surprising to think of your cells as possibly originating from a relationship between two or more single celled organisms (with mitochondria even having a separate set of DNA from the rest of you, that is only passed maternally), just like it's kind of surprising to think of the left and the right brain almost acting as if they are in a relationship with each other, but individual.

    Though I guess the concept of having a hidden 'other' inside of us is also present with Jung and Freud, with stuff like the anima/animus, the 'unconscious,' or the id, superego etc.

    Seems like some psychology concepts look at inner relationships and dynamics between parts of ourselves, which are described in a similar way as the relationship dynamics we can have with the world around us.

    Idk--weird to think of a personality as being relationships between one's 'self' and other aspects of the self, but that's what Jung was all about. Also weird how symbiosis is also a theory for how multi-cellular life evolved.

    But eh--I just thought of endosymbiosis. I don't really have anything else to add.
    every idea thus far has gone this far because of a logical chain that has lead us to this point. The problem is with time, this logical chain gets lost.

    I believe that this endsymbiosis does have a relationship with personality the question then is how. OR if it does it may be a refinement of a previous logical chain. We must discover where? and how can the overall picture change because of this..

    We must be scientists. Not mysticists or practice some other foolishness of superstition. If it in the end is superstitious belief, its best to understand what it is that makes it so.

    We are thus far thinkers, and capable of reason! and able to distinguish what is truth and what is not.

  9. #9

    Our neurons create a very unique organ known as the brain, which interface the rest of our body(part of our unconscious) with our environment. They also create this cloud of conscious awareness that makes me aware that I am aware. Strange and fascinating at the same time.

    Most life on the planet, including most animals, is unconscious, with some animals having a subconscious life. All of the bacteria, plants, protists, fungi, and our own organs live a very unconscious life. The type of brain an organism has is what determines the level of consciousness. We see it in various levels throughout the animal kingdom. It is a layer that has evolved upon the layers of the unconscious. The earliest appearance of neurons in the evolutionary tree mark where it all first evolved.
    mr. rozay thanked this post.


     

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