[INTJ] INTJ Method(s) of Developing/Enhancing INTJ Empathy - Page 12

INTJ Method(s) of Developing/Enhancing INTJ Empathy

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This is a discussion on INTJ Method(s) of Developing/Enhancing INTJ Empathy within the INTJ Forum - The Scientists forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Originally Posted by hornpipe2 lol wat Empathy is the ability to understand and share feeling with another. How can someone ...

  1. #111
    Unknown


    Quote Originally Posted by hornpipe2 View Post
    lol wat
    Empathy is the ability to understand and share feeling with another. How can someone actually detect how empathetic a person is via text? The words can be typed and read but this does not reflect how empathetic the author is in reality. Too many variables to accurately gauge empathy online in my opinion. You can think of it like people that send emojis of faces crying from laughter when the reality could be closer to Same concept.
    lilysocks, brightflashes and Squirt thanked this post.

  2. #112
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Empathy!
    Empathy!
    Put myself in the place of YEE!

  3. #113

    Anyway, to wrap up my whole involvement with this thread (looking forward to the next one coming up soon), I just want to point out that Empathy is a human trait; it is one of many things that separate us from most animals (though there are many indicators that animals also have empathy). Empathy transcends type; it even transcends understanding. We know it has to do with the amygdala, the functionality of the limbic system, but we don't really know why we have it, just that we do.

    As humans, INTJs have empathy. We can be stirred to compassion or identification. We can become angry when someone is going through terrible times. We can become sad or worried when someone we care about is having difficulty. In our way - our human way - we will strive to make the load lighter where we can and to allow for natural healing where we perceive we have no power. Like any other human throughout time, we may rage at the gods, cry ourselves to sleep, or whisper to our friends about the pain of too much longing, the pain of too much love, the pain of the suffering of any of our fellow humans.

    It is in some people's nature to compete against others in their empathy, but it tends not to be in the INTJ nature. We just empathise. We can do it as quietly or loudly as anyone else, but we do. Just because we may not express it the way certain individuals (I'm not even going to say INFJs, because I do get at least it's an individual's choice to take issue with some sort of personal fallacy and try to make it a type thing when it's not) want us to doesn't mean we don't have it.

    There are at least 6 human beings in my life I would die for. As irrational as it might seem, it's true. And I wouldn't think twice about it. And I would do that just so that they wouldn't have to endure any pain again. I may not love often, but when I do, I love deeply and completely. To say that I am incapable of empathy cheapens my relationships with those who I love. It is a terrible insult.
    EyesOpen, Judson Joist, hornpipe2 and 3 others thanked this post.

  4. #114

    oops.
    Last edited by brightflashes; 05-27-2019 at 01:05 AM.

  5. #115

    Quote Originally Posted by lilysocks View Post
    this is exactly the sort of thing i was thinking about, partly because i've been watching those stanford lectures on behavioural biology or whatever it is that i posted recently in the intj porn thread. very entertaining and engaging lecturer, for whatever that's worth.

    one of the things the guy mentions in the second lecture is kin selection. it seems that pretty much all creatures do this, across pretty much all the species. basically: 'who is my kin group? who's in and who's out? who am i going to collaborate with? where am i going to spend resources?'

    [it's sort of interesting as a sideline to run the mbti notions through this different lexicon, btw. fe versus fi, for instance.]

    to me - atm at least - empathy is falling under the umbrella of that conception. not only in the sense that kinship presumably evokes or compels 'empathy', but also the other way round: that it's also one of the ways we define who our 'kin' are.

    to see it that way, of course, i think you kind of have to start asking what empathy's for. it's a serious question. all this polemic and bumf about how we have to have it, or we're supposed to have it, but i'm not sure i've ever seen anyone quite explain why. it's just a Good Thing. and you ought to Have It.
    Nyegh... Now I have to link you to Martin Nowak's work... one of my favorite 'current' scientists. He provides an alternative perspective to kin selection that created quite a bit of controversy. Your reversal about how we define kin makes me think you might enjoy his work. Even E.O. Wilson doesn't think inclusive fitness is a good theory anymore.

    Research — Martin Nowak

    https://evolutionnews.org/2011/05/eo...s_his_own_kin/


    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Flower View Post
    Your situation is unfortunate. True empathy involves meeting people where they are, which may involve leaving them the hell alone.

    Emoting at, or demanding emoting from, those who don’t deal with things in that manner is selfish.
    When I am around other people, I am immediately uncomfortable... in part because I worry about 'demanding' from others, or not being able to provide what is 'demanded' of me, in an emotional sense. For that reason, I rely on watching the other person and trying to figure out what they want/feel to gauge how I will behave with them.

    If I make a mistake, or even believe I make one, I feel panic (although I never show it, I just... stuff it back down. lol...).

    I know it comes from being very bad at understanding or noticing the feelings/emotional states of others when I was a kid, and experiencing a lot of negative consequences by upsetting people unknowingly. It was strange because I could, at the same time, pick up on a lot of what was going on around me, I just didn't know how to interpret it and so basically ignored it.

    When we discuss how INTJ responds to empathy, it seems like maturity level should be a consideration when we say how adept INTJ is or isn't in dealing with emotionally complex situations or empathic responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Flower View Post
    Empathy, ideally, helps us temporarily be what those closest to us need us to be when they are going through rough times, rather than giving them what WE would want if we were the one going through the rough time.
    My INFP husband likes to misquote the golden rule – he says, “Treat others how they'd like to be treated – their tastes may not be the same.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Wellsy View Post
    Hmmm I do wonder the quality of experiencing the same emotions because the example of getting into a fight to me doesn’t seem to characterize empathy but a person being reactive to a sense of being attacked. Where anger is often the alternative to feeling sad when one is hurt by something. I fond that I’m being empathetic more so in recognizing jow they’re hurt and expressing that recognition by trying to discuss that rather than flaring up in a knee jerk response. And even when the persons really sad I think I bring my emotional state into one complimentary which might be similar but I wouldn’t be sad like them or id be the one also needing consoling and not helping much.
    You understand and relate to what theyre feeling without replicating it in yourself exactly. But guess this gets back to distinguishing what empathy is but the examples where i think someone is empathetic to me doesn’t seem to be someone swept up with anothers emotions, that just sounds like an overly sensitive person who may as well wallow in their own feelings than really connect with someone.
    Fi is inherently self-referencing. That is how it processes 'emotional attentiveness'. I think that is why Fi users with high self-awareness recognize that they can't 'feel' others, they can only approximate based on how they would feel.

    This is in contrast to Fe, where 'the other' comes before the 'self'...

    We are conscious of ourselves because we are conscious of others; and in an analogous manner, we are conscious of others because in our relationship to ourselves we are the same as others in their relationship to us.
    I am curious what you think of this statement sounding like the Fe perspective.

    Anyway, I agree with you, and would take it a step further where one cannot even know what anyone feels unless they are given 'clues' about the other's emotional state. I don't care how psychic (N) people think they are, they are most likely unconsciously processing cues when they believe they 'feel' what others do, even though those cues can be incredibly subtle and numerous.

    When a person does display what they feel in such a way as to allow others to pick up on it easily (for instance, sobbing, or shouting for joy), another person might react similarly to what they have picked up on, as you said. We can 'feel bad' when someone else 'feels bad' or 'feel good' when someone else 'feels good', but I can't imagine it is anything more than a generalized emotional reaction to certain triggers, not one that leads another to feel exactly what someone else is feeling.

    (although it gets even more complex when I consider how specific behaviors can promote specific emotional states, such as smiling or laughing... that suggests that there are generalized emotional states that everyone could experience the same way, if not simultaneously... yet, I still would expect there to be some differences between people the majority of the time, and that the trigger in and of itself is not capable of producing exactly mirrored states between people)

    What someone believes about those feelings (when they have them), or what they do with them (or don't do), is an entirely different story, and arguably the more important question when it comes to how we deal with one another.

    Many people are saying that here, it seems.

    Quote Originally Posted by burningsoul View Post
    @Squirt

    Let me see. Yes, the discussion is around the MBTI functions. Empathy, I'd say, is a manifestation of a judging function (Fe or Fi) while intuition is a perceiving function. So, what you said about some observation mixing becoming empathy is inaccurate because Ni+Se is still only observation. And not a judgement. The Ni-Te combination at the top of the personality makes INTJs have high standards and a very no non-sense attitude towards life. High standards about every last thing in living life rule out empathy for the average individual out there. In other words, it would have to be a remarkable person to find some emotion in the INTJ's heart. Admiration, respect, camaraderie are emotions that I see in INTJs towards people they find remarkable. Empathy comes into the picture when this person goes through a troubling time. If this is a remarkable person, why would he/she go through trying times? And if he/she does, how would this become apparent to the INTJ? I'd say this is a rare occurrence and probably only a passing thing when it happens. Overall, my point is, empathy does not have much space for a person with the usual INTJ standards of living life.

    Now, suppose an INTJ goes out of her way to make an attempt to experience what it is to feel empathetic. The inner experience can be anything from enlightening to distortion of perception and judgement.

    The expression of empathy from INTJs look pretentious on the outside. The emoting required is flattened out.

    INTJ empathy expressed as hard love is quite something though. It is effective and produces good results. But again, this cannot be available to many. Nietzche (a presumed INTJ) said the same thing in the chapter Of the Friend in Thus Spake Zarathustra.

    So, theoretically speaking, is it possible? Yes. As an experience, surely, yes. But practically? And how often? And to what end? The same questions that I asked somebody else and did not get any answers. The question remains - why has empathy, out of nowhere, suddenly become a cherished value? Or is it a cultural thing to catch up to (I live in a different part of the world. I am not aware of things going on, on your side of the globe. I am not being sassy here)? If you allow a personal question, how important has empathy been in your life? That can bring some perspective on this.
    Is English your first language? If not, that may explain some of the misunderstandings about how words are used.

    I suspect your argument is not so different from what other people are saying (especially the parts I bolded), but you are saying it in a way that sounds a bit strange. When you say "flattened out", for example, I am guessing you mean "reserved," which has different connotations.

    Let me come at it this way – if empathy is characterized solely by the Feeling functions, are you saying that INTP would also not be able to use empathy effectively with inferior Fe? How does that manifest, in your opinion?
    Wellsy and Blue Flower thanked this post.

  6. #116

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt View Post
    Is English your first language? If not, that may explain some of the misunderstandings about how words are used.
    As if native English speakers don't fumble phrasal verbs. Yes, English is not my mother tongue. But then my education throughout has been in the English language and I hold a master's degree in English literature. I don't understand the relevance of pointing out a minor error to the discussion about empathy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt View Post
    I suspect your argument is not so different from what other people are saying (especially the parts I bolded), but you are saying it in a way that sounds a bit strange. When you say "flattened out", for example, I am guessing you mean "reserved," which has different connotations.
    I should have used the word flattened instead. The way a balloon is flattened. But as I talk to you, I recall something else. Something I haven't said so far. INTJs utilize emotion to argue their logical point aggressively. The Te dominates and utilizes the Fi. Fi is by and large subordinated to Te. Traditionally, the expression of empathy is expected to be gentle. Hence, the difficulty for the debate-loving INTJ to bring expression to empathy. Someone suggested getting angry with someone who is angry is also empathy. While I am not opposed to the idea, I think the consequences can get disastrous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt View Post
    Let me come at it this way – if empathy is characterized solely by the Feeling functions, are you saying that INTP would also not be able to use empathy effectively with inferior Fe? How does that manifest, in your opinion?
    I am glad you brought this up. Is your argument that empathy can function without an F function as a combination of (Ni+Se)+Te? This is exactly what I just said. Fi being subordinated to Te. An INTJ may want to explore whether he/she can understand the cognitive function of feeling through a combination of other cognitive functions. I have read many posts by INTJs saying if only they can get rid of emotions, it would be so great. Of course, that was said in a humourous way. But there was also an expression of INTJs' distaste with emotion. There is inherent flaw in this argument however since all cognitive functions have a different purpose. Imagine an ESxJ saying there is no such thing as introverted intuition. They CAN do that. It is their 7th function.

    About INTPs (ISTPs are also inf. Fe). Ti-Ne is the life dedication of an INTP - tinkering with ideas. A concept, its possibilities and the myriad connections that every concept can make with other concepts must be deeply engrossing for an INTP. Emotion, any emotion disturbs that process and they try to keep it repressed. All inferior processes disturb the dominant two. Note that F is Fe for INTPs and Fi for INTJs. Fe is not personal emotions but the emotions of the tribe, of the group the ibdividual is a part of. I don't think empathy figures significant in an INTP's life. Recall Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory empathizing (with I don't remember who). At best it is an act so they can get rid of being expected to empathize. At a level lower than in INTJs, feelings are the most unprocessed part of an INTPs psyche. Watch this to see how emotions are like for an INTP:



    Notice Dave says that INTPs want to purge their emotions. Notice the level of discomfort. Fi is a shadow function. So, its expression is like a gremlin to an INTP. Also, he is only talking about doing the EJ thing and not actually doing those.

  7. #117

    @burningsoul

    That you like Dave Powers explains SO MUCH about why we keep clashing. Thanks so much for providing me with that one clue that was like gees, how in the world am I clashing with an INFP?

    Are you an INFP in OP or is it in MBTI? Just wondering. You can answer in PM since this is off topic.

  8. #118

    Quote Originally Posted by burningsoul View Post
    As if native English speakers don't fumble phrasal verbs. Yes, English is not my mother tongue. But then my education throughout has been in the English language and I hold a master's degree in English literature. I don't understand the relevance of pointing out a minor error to the discussion about empathy.
    I'm not sure what error you believe I was pointing out. I am not talking about grammar, but your unconventional phrasing. Not that a native English speaker could not have that characteristic, but it is informative to get a better idea of your perspective.

    To reduce the number of assumptions about what I'm addressing, I'm going to break up your points and address them directly instead of all together.

    Quote Originally Posted by burningsoul View Post
    I should have used the word flattened instead. The way a balloon is flattened.
    I confess, I don't get this metaphor at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by burningsoul View Post
    But as I talk to you, I recall something else. Something I haven't said so far. INTJs utilize emotion to argue their logical point aggressively. The Te dominates and utilizes the Fi. Fi is by and large subordinated to Te. Traditionally, the expression of empathy is expected to be gentle. Hence, the difficulty for the debate-loving INTJ to bring expression to empathy.
    INTJ is not Te dominant in a dominant-auxiliary relationship with Fi... or at least the relationship you describe is not a common interpretation of how auxiliary and tertiary functions might interact.

    I'm not sure how it follows that someone who enjoys debate would not be able to express empathy on the basis that they use Te when forming logical arguments... is a debate generally something that is a highly empathic experience for people? Maybe I'm too INTJ to get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by burningsoul View Post
    I am glad you brought this up. Is your argument that empathy can function without an F function as a combination of (Ni+Se)+Te? This is exactly what I just said. Fi being subordinated to Te.
    I'm saying that empathy isn't a product of functions. That is out of the purview if MBTI. Rather, how someone deals with 'empathy' (theirs, others, the concept itself) might indicate their function preferences, but not their 'adeptness' necessarily.

    The question is this:

    Do you mean to say that INTJ doesn't experience empathy, or
    that they don't act on their experience of empathy?
    that they simply would not 'want' to experience it, based on if they feel discomfort with it?

    I'd say all three of those are false as universal statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by burningsoul View Post
    An INTJ may want to explore whether he/she can understand the cognitive function of feeling through a combination of other cognitive functions. I have read many posts by INTJs saying if only they can get rid of emotions, it would be so great. Of course, that was said in a humourous way. But there was also an expression of INTJs' distaste with emotion. There is inherent flaw in this argument however since all cognitive functions have a different purpose. Imagine an ESxJ saying there is no such thing as introverted intuition. They CAN do that. It is their 7th function.
    I'd agree with that. It doesn't mean INTJ doesn't 'utilize their F function' when needed/appropriate, especially when matured, and it is not like the utilization of it is somehow 'subpar' because it is the tertiary function...

    Quote Originally Posted by burningsoul View Post
    About INTPs (ISTPs are also inf. Fe). Ti-Ne is the life dedication of an INTP - tinkering with ideas. A concept, its possibilities and the myriad connections that every concept can make with other concepts must be deeply engrossing for an INTP. Emotion, any emotion disturbs that process and they try to keep it repressed. All inferior processes disturb the dominant two. Note that F is Fe for INTPs and Fi for INTJs. Fe is not personal emotions but the emotions of the tribe, of the group the ibdividual is a part of. I don't think empathy figures significant in an INTP's life. Recall Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory empathizing (with I don't remember who). At best it is an act so they can get rid of being expected to empathize. At a level lower than in INTJs, feelings are the most unprocessed part of an INTPs psyche. Watch this to see how emotions are like for an INTP:



    Notice Dave says that INTPs want to purge their emotions. Notice the level of discomfort. Fi is a shadow function. So, its expression is like a gremlin to an INTP. Also, he is only talking about doing the EJ thing and not actually doing those.
    I mostly agree with this, except the bolded part, and if I read between a lot of the lines, lol.

  9. #119
    INFP


    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt View Post
     
    Fi is inherently self-referencing. That is how it processes 'emotional attentiveness'. I think that is why Fi users with high self-awareness recognize that they can't 'feel' others, they can only approximate based on how they would feel.

    This is in contrast to Fe, where 'the other' comes before the 'self'...
    We are conscious of ourselves because we are conscious of others; and in an analogous manner, we are conscious of others because in our relationship to ourselves we are the same as others in their relationship to us.
    I am curious what you think of this statement sounding like the Fe perspective.

    Anyway, I agree with you, and would take it a step further where one cannot even know what anyone feels unless they are given 'clues' about the other's emotional state. I don't care how psychic (N) people think they are, they are most likely unconsciously processing cues when they believe they 'feel' what others do, even though those cues can be incredibly subtle and numerous.

    When a person does display what they feel in such a way as to allow others to pick up on it easily (for instance, sobbing, or shouting for joy), another person might react similarly to what they have picked up on, as you said. We can 'feel bad' when someone else 'feels bad' or 'feel good' when someone else 'feels good', but I can't imagine it is anything more than a generalized emotional reaction to certain triggers, not one that leads another to feel exactly what someone else is feeling.

    (although it gets even more complex when I consider how specific behaviors can promote specific emotional states, such as smiling or laughing... that suggests that there are generalized emotional states that everyone could experience the same way, if not simultaneously... yet, I still would expect there to be some differences between people the majority of the time, and that the trigger in and of itself is not capable of producing exactly mirrored states between people)

    What someone believes about those feelings (when they have them), or what they do with them (or don't do), is an entirely different story, and arguably the more important question when it comes to how we deal with one another.

    Many people are saying that here, it seems.
    Bit hungover as celebrated memorial weekend so bare with my sloppiness ^_^

    I'm not sure how I'd fit the quote within the MBTI because I take it as the development of consciousness which is one's relation to the world primarily before one achieves a reflexive quality to one's consciousness.
    Where even the Fe person is reflexive, but their focus and how they value the external differs where as Fi shys away or 'devalues' the object.


    Indeed, all communication is mediated as we most certainly do not have mind to mind telepathy but communicate with artefacts, where even our bodies are culturally connotated and socially meaningful so that when I do a certain gesture with my hand and arm, another person can interpret it.
    Although things like emotional expressions whilst also culturally connotated do seem to have a seemingly natural sense for early communication in which even a baby gets upset when their mother stops interacting and blankly stares at them rather than smile.
    And yes, this is also why I wouldn't say that one feels the same way as the other person because we have to work at sort of syncing up with people which isn't as easy as telepathy probably is or like the Empath in Guardians the Galaxy 2 who touches people and really does feel exactly what they're feeling.


    And in regards to different reactions to a certain trigger, it makes me think of a line about consciousness mediating our response to things.
    https://ethicalpolitics.org/ablunden...eterminism.pdf
    But for example, an impending event cannot cause me to prepare for it, the sight of a juicy steak cannot cause me to steal it: consciousness always mediates between stimulus and response.
    Blue Flower thanked this post.


     
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