The Saddest @@ INTJ Has Given Up Hope, Trust, and Caring.
Has this ever happened to you?
How did you survive. . . and thrive?
This is a discussion on The Saddest @@ INTJ Has Given Up Hope, Trust, and Caring. TRUE???? within the INTJ Forum - The Scientists forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; The Saddest @@ INTJ Has Given Up Hope, Trust, and Caring. TRUE???? Has this ever happened to you? How did ...
The Saddest @@ INTJ Has Given Up Hope, Trust, and Caring.
Has this ever happened to you?
How did you survive. . . and thrive?
I have Major Depressive Disorder and when I'm going through an episode, it can feel hopeless, I lose the ability to feel my emotions (emotional numbness), and I may be possibly a bit more paranoid (I haven't ever really noticed this last one, though to be honest; I trust who I trust but that doesn't seem to change with MDD).
How I got through it? By trying every single "trick" I could until I had to give in and accept that I needed to take medication for it. I was 25 and about to get married and I knew I had to be a better person for my life partner and later, not that there was any question, I knew I needed to be there for my daughter. It was the hardest and easiest thing I've ever done. Hard because it's difficult to admit that one can't handle it by themselves and easy because the tiniest dose had my mind clear enough to realise just how much of an idiot I was for not seeing a professional sooner.
I landed in hospital last year, where I had way too much free time considering how it's possible still being alive despite someone nearly killing me, and this later led to depression and after that, anxiety. It was a horrible feeling of hopelessness and I still struggle with it.
(I function normally but struggle at times for which I take anti-anxiety meds if it's bad. They just make me sleepy but sometimes I need time to lie in bed and come up with the problems and solutions.)
The antidote is exactly what you described, feeling things to be hopeful about, caring about and trusting things again. I started working toward my goals and simultaneously decided I needed to re-engineer my life. It's been a lot of connecting to things I used to love as I was younger, and remembering how my healthy mindset operates so that I stick to those patterns. I am learning about little joys in my days like baking something.
Key to all of it is to not think big. Mortality and trust and etc are all big conceptual issues. But life is little moments, so I need to focus on those.
Mindset is very much about discipline while enjoying the moment, and slowly I dare to dream big again.
Last edited by Negotiator; 07-12-2019 at 03:14 AM.
I actually have a lot of questions about this because I knew an INTJ that dealt with it and didn't recover, I had to end the friendship and am still a bit shaken about it. I cared about this person but he sabotaged the hell out of himself and it boiled over to everyone that knew him. It was hella frustrating to watch someone destroy themself and you have to watch with folded hands because commenting was basically betrayal. He was completely numb and receded from normal circles into toxic extremist camps. When I noticed him receding I reached out to him and kept tabs on him. I might not be able to suggest things but I could read his state of mind pretty well based on what he said. Long story, the extremist circles narrowed his focus to these really dire, negative assertions about the world. And he couldn't shut up about them. After awhile all he would talk to me for was venting and heaving this BS onto me. It wore away at me. I tried to help him as best I could but nothing seemed to work and he would accuse me of being judgmental if I disagreed with him or pointed out that it was depressing or no good. Eventually we had a fight because I did that again, talk about his emotional state, and he got angry and said I don't support him and that he could barely consider me a friend anymore. I was shocked, I melted down. After some fruitless discussion ( he didn't want to work on anything, only that I was the problem, I was too difficult, this outcome was inevitable anyway ) I ended the friendship. He said he only felt a stab of emotion after it was done. Like was he on autopilot through the entire thing I guess? And that I abandoned him in his hour of need. I know what being abandoned feels like, I have empathy for him, but I couldn't handle what he was dishing out anymore. It was completely selfish, self destructive, I think he was genuinely blind to what I needed because it always came back to his feelings and that I was just being difficult
I read that INTJs have trouble with hope because they feel they see the future, and if their vision of the future is dire, they may find it inevitable. I saw that with him. I am more flexible like "many routes, many branching possibilities" so I could see many ways things could get better, but I couldn't get him to buy that. He just keep picking the crap routes over and over and then freaking out when it goes wrong. It took a long time but I witnessed his breaking point on that and it wasn't pretty, when strongly held beliefs crumble. He was fatalistic with me too, he had no desire of fixing things with me because it was similar to numerous other interpersonal problems he had in the past, a pattern he had no desire of fixing. He was likely to blame the problem on the other person and was blaming me for some things that seemed untrue or like self projections.
On rare occasion I suggested getting help but he was super defensive about that, saying it hurt him, and he thought he could solve it with ebooks or something. So I could no longer suggest getting help. I realize he is too afraid to look at himself (hugely avoidant and bit of a temper) to be able to help himself much, help is probably needed.
TL;DR reading whatever responses are here to see how any of you made it out alive. I think about him a lot and I don't know what could have been done differently. It has unnerved me
I have had some very interesting/great friendships with INTJs but examples like this make me afraid. When things get rough they really get rough, and painful. Sharp words and trick room situations
what makes better sense (maybe) is to process your loss. i mean, if a person has chosen something (and maybe here, yeah, if that person's an intj) then . . . i have met people who seemed like they had made a determined decision to deal with goodness by refusing to value it. it's almost like they see it as a way of triumphing over all the dilemmas of life. my struggle has usually been with that knowledge, seen in hindsight when i look back on those folks. i take my own values too seriously not to rage and mourn when it dawns on me that i had been wasting them.sort of. we're all different, and i don't think your friend was a typical case. but personally and short of that kind of extremism, i wouldn't say i find it inevitable. i just find it to be a fact that this is one way of looking at things, and a fact that it is the way that i'm looking at things. being told to perk up and think differently just makes me angry. i recognize the concept of subjectivity. so, as a side-effect of that, i expect other people to recognize and treat subjectivity in the same way i do [hint: i'm not super-sure that they do ].I read that INTJs have trouble with hope because they feel they see the future, and if their vision of the future is dire, they may find it inevitable
it might be fi. personal process to me has always been hermetic. my processes accept input, and that's where my flexibility lies: i'm open in that respect. but the process itself, i.e. what my mind does with input - no. on some level i think i don't even grok the concept of being told by some outside force not to think what i think. it outrages logic and physics, to me. my mind just goes 'i do think what i think. i don't understand why there's even a topic in this.'
so, what this leads to is . . . if i'm in a funk and i think a particular thing, that is the thing that i think. whether it's wrong or it's right doesn't matter that much. it is the thing that i think. the weird thing ( i guess) is that i don't necessarily think the thing's true. i just get very very stubborn about that hairs-breadth distinction of 'the fact that i think it is true'. and i can take input - i probably retain even stuff that i don't visibly process at once. so you have that to consider whenever you think of your friend. he registered whatever you said. you probably never did have much input into whether or when or in what way his mind processes it.that sounds like bullshit to me. he doesn't get to play that kind of game, holding you up by the scruff of your neck and demanding you 'care' about him while rejecting you at the same time. that's a way of stacking the deck so that he always wins, right? you can't 'abandon' a person who tells you he doesn't want you.And that I abandoned him in his hour of need.
Thank you lily, that makes some sense to me. "The thing that I think" part, that was interesting. He would make very self assured statements about what was true (some fake news how world is bad in some way), but in rare moments I would hear him say that he doesn't actually believe what he is saying. That didn't make sense to me, but maybe it was like this
That last part makes me smile a bit. Haha
He might have known it
Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me and give me your perspective
Likely, INTJ's don't have a monopoly on "going off the deep end".
I've known a fellow for many decades who "chose" to head that way despite a promising career and many opportunities for great things in life. Now works very part time and lives in a van. He calls it "on the Path to Truth". I call it "hopelessly homeless and destitute".
The "Path To Truth" think I've heard from others, too, is just a justification for lack of ambition and an opportunistic narcissistic lifestyle.
i think to me there would be a difference between someone whose life direction i'm losing the ability to relate to, which can happen with anybody and a lot of the time it's a pretty no-harm-no-foul thing. and a person whose opinions are becoming morally repulsive to me. repulsiveness is a more serious thing, naturally. can't tell in the case of your friend and you're not me with my outlook on life anyway. but you mentioned toxic extremism stuff, and that makes me think you had a valid revulsion all of your own all along too. so maybe in some ways or on some level he's a person you're glad to be free of yourself.In this one, his outlook and decisions were sinking him and that made me frustrated and want to give advice because I was witnessing the train go off the tracks. But yes that was frustrating to him, because he saw it as differences in opinion, not being helpful
doesn't help the hurt of having had someone you cared about turn into a person you don't want to know.interesting. i'll be honest; i've certainly been down some rabbit holes and dead ends of my own - gotten very committed to things that i no longer thought five years later. but i'm not sure i've ever done exactly that: maintained something as fact that i didn't believe in myself.He would make very self assured statements about what was true (some fake news how world is bad in some way), but in rare moments I would hear him say that he doesn't actually believe what he is saying. That didn't make sense to me, but maybe it was like this
the thing i was talking about is a little bit different from that. it's more like, being conscious in a moment that whatever i'm seeing right then is just OF the moment. it's like if somebody drops a cannon onto your toe and then asks you if you're okay. obviously you're not. at the same time, it's equally obvious that a crushed toe is not life-threatening. so i have shroedinger's toe . in the same moment of experience i'm both okay, but i'm not. in real life it's probably much more simple that that, like: no of course i'm not fucking okay but i'm going to be.
my comment was more like that second mindset. of course i'm aware i'm not going to die. BUT i'm not going to entertain that as a topic though; not while what i'm feeling is true. the future is not relevant.
it's not a great metaphor though, because the obvious thing about transient physical pain is that you know it will pass. with emotional pain and other forms of mental turmoil, the hallmark of 'turmoil' is the fact you don't know. if you did you would probably be better at keeping your balance, you know?
idk; would i embrace alt-rightdom while knowing it's not what i honestly think? don't think so. but i've certainly had times where what i think in a specific moment IS what i think. and there isn't a thing i can do about it, but it's not what i want to be thinking for the long term. under those circs the future-based intj thing means i can get caught in a struggle between two forms of authenticity that genuinely contradict one another.
i seriously hate having to live in that state, so maybe your friend just decided to pick one and then stick to it. i've done that, but i tend to pick for the longer-term thing of how i want things to be and grit my teeth through the shorter term storm. it's not always do-able though and it comes at a price. i don't have endless stamina for it. if anything i may have less stamina than most people do. it does matter to me quite a lot that i deal with what's real, so idealism alone only carries me for a short way.
the bottom line sounds to me like your friend will either straighten himself out, or not. in the meantime, people who have their heads stuck in a tunnel are HARD to deal with. they're boring as fuck, without even going to the other things. i have very limited tolerance there, so i guess i'm fairly demanding with friends. i'll put up with a certain kind of hardship for them and not grudge it at all. but others, i'm not the person they ought to count on.it's an interesting conversation. ending important connections is never easy. it deserves processing time.Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me and give me your perspective
Those type of negative feelings would only come about when I choose to blame other factors besides myself. Easier said than done but it's true what they say when they say you are in control of your own life. Of course, there are external factors you cannot control but instead of focusing so much on what we can't control, sometimes it's best to just step back, stop freaking out about those external factors, and then hone in on the things that we actually can control. Being big picture type people, sometimes we can choose to overlook what we view as insignificant and superficial. I think those small things can all help you along to achieve big picture goals. It's like that person who just starts working out and wants to bite far more than he can chew instead of being proud of being able to lift 10 lbs for example. 10 lbs might not be 100, but it is still better than 0 or not even trying anything at all.
I stopped the whole self-pitying/victim thing. That was for when I was a teen/low 20's and all it did was making me into an unhappy and negative human. I realize that life will never meet your expectations and that's fine but I can always choose to live my life reaching my own expectations. I have the means to leave things that aren't right or toxic for me and I should choose to take more responsibility for things that I absolutely should. As humans we tend to set unrealistic expectations onto people and then deem them too stupid, illogical, distrustful, mean, hopeless, etc. This is where we go wrong. It is not about that. No one is perfect and there will be plenty of people that you come across that won't meet the expectations that you set for them.
My "regular mode" is basically a mix of a crushing cynicism and stoicism. For most of the time I don't really care about much about anything (being in love is one exception, just as sharing time with true friends), but that doesn't bring me sadness either, I simply don't feel anything but a comfortable sense of control over my psyche, body and ego, which can make me stagnant, unproductive (and THAT can lead me to become sad and self-destructive).
The temporary "cure" I found for this state is simply external stimuli. I use things like music and creative projects to inspire me and "shake my character", taking me out of my comfort zone, giving me a purpose. I think anything that makes your heart beat faster is an option, but I recommend keeping it healthy (or else it can become an addiction or something even more dangerous).
In other words: Your mind torments you? That's because you are carrying it too much, it's better to go out and search for things to do. Hobbies, new objectives, new experiences. An empty mind is truly devil's workshop.