[INTJ] The (stream of conscious?) venting thread for INTJ. - Page 3649

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This is a discussion on The (stream of conscious?) venting thread for INTJ. within the INTJ Forum - The Scientists forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Originally Posted by Squirt Heh, the Descartes "I think therefore I am" etc... lol Okay you asked for it... I ...

  1. #36481

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt View Post
    Heh, the Descartes "I think therefore I am" etc... lol Okay you asked for it...

    I view 'reality' (or all that truly exists), as essentially inaccessible except via sensory input, before any further processing of those sensations. We can form constructs to interpret reality, but they are always wrong. Those constructs are altered and manipulated as a matter of change in perspective, and our interpretation of reality can be easily deceived (as Descartes pointed out...). The only purpose those constructs serve is to anticipate our environment, and we accept them based on how well the construct does so. Yet, that still isn't an indicator of how well it reflects reality because our evaluation of that value is also necessarily limited by our subjective experience (personally and collectively).
    So objective reality? There is a universe or existence that would continue on with or without us? Belief systems then are tools to manipulate the lens you use to interpret that reality.

    Hm.. I wouldn't disagree. I mean obviously it's a lot easier to assume that everything we physically experience and communicate to others about is "real" than the would be alternative. You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. I think my usage of the word "reality" is more... romantic as you say later? As in functional reality. Putting aside literal existence, what we think reality is, or the projection in our minds, is fundamentally wrong, which means it is open for tinkering with. Like with mantras for example. Words like Chi or sign have affects on the brain. Meanings which carry more weight than just their definition. A mysticism of sorts.

    When it comes to optimizing one's outlook on literal reality, there are likely many paths. Two of them that are relevant right now are the more scientific "I want to focus on literal reality and directly manipulate that" and the more... romantic, or humanities side of it. It's similar to the left brain right brain idea. One is structured and calculating while the other is creative and flexible. I definitely think that science nerds should exist, but am advocating for an alternative viewpoint where you aren't so much focusing on what you perceive, but working parallel to it. Our bodies and minds have internal processing that creates another variable to the equation, and a lot of our understanding of that is changing by the day.

    I think a lot of what the creative side is doing is finding shortcuts to coexisting (synchronicity) with literal reality in a sustainable way. There's a kind of deeper logic to things if you put down your magnifying glass and just observe (irony). Magic then doesn't have to literally exist for it to have an effect on the psyche. Or perhaps the effect it has on the psyche is what magic is intended to be. Okay I'm stopping before going down a deeper rabbit hole, lol.

    So, something like astrology exists as a construct, but it is not 'reality' any more than the designation of 'C' for a musical note is reality, or a painting of a cloud with a mixture of pigments is truly a cloud.

    It is interesting to me in that astrology attempts to validate our existence by aligning it with an unfathomable, external reality - the cosmos itself. That this practice persists and was developed by many cultures through history suggests our faith in synchronicity, that we can be a 'part of' reality on an intimate and yet expansive level even as we can never 'know' it beyond our bodies.
    Hm... yes. A painting of a cloud is not a cloud. But it is real, and it depicts a cloud and if you look at it and recognize it you would call it a cloud. The painting is an expression of the idea "cloud," not to be confused with the literal thing. And you can show a painting of a cloud to someone who can't speak your language and they can interpret what you're referring to. At some point, it can become a symbol for something else. Rain, thunderstorm, comfort, sadness, carefree, and each of those carries weight depending on the setting.

    ...You know what?

    Both systems are flawed in terms of reflecting anything in reality. Tropical seems to be more 'accurate', though... you know, for a completely imaginary system. If you have a good understanding of the symbolism of astrology, you relate less to all the flimsy, cookie-cutter definitions of the zodiac out there.
    I don't disagree with any of this. Nevermind, then.

    By symbolism I meant the core associations with the planets, signs, houses, points, and so on, and the representations of them. So, Aquarius is 'the water bearer.' It doesn't 'live' in the water as Pisces does, totally immersed in what 'water' might mean (emotions, intuition, fluidity), but it pours from Aquarius, giving it the association of effectively utilizing insight, for example.

    Sun sign would not be a great indicator of the 'mind', that would be represented by Mercury, although if you have Sun/Mercury conjunct it can mean over-identification with the mind (I have that aspect...). When you say "wet-minded" it makes me think of a water sign Mercury, perhaps. Moon sign would also show the instinctual/emotional nature of a person according to astrology rather than Sun. Sun is about core identity or sense of self-worth, the 'ego'. Most descriptions for Sun signs overlook all that.
    So cool...

    I think I'm Gemini mercury. Pisces sun tho! Aquarius moon.
    Squirt thanked this post.

  2. #36482
    ISTJ - The Duty Fulfillers

    Flying near the end of the year and trying to 1)decide/remember what to put in my quart-sized bag, and 2)what clothing to take. It's a 6-day trip and my MO is that if it won't fit into a carry-on, it doesn't make the cut. Haven't flown since 2012 and although I had a carry-on for that trip as well, I ended up actually taking too much. This was part of the reason I got my hair chopped. Need to be able to fit all of my haircare into a tiny bag. Hmpf.

  3. #36483

    Quote Originally Posted by SantaFox View Post
    So objective reality? There is a universe or existence that would continue on with or without us? Belief systems then are tools to manipulate the lens you use to interpret that reality.

    Hm.. I wouldn't disagree. I mean obviously it's a lot easier to assume that everything we physically experience and communicate to others about is "real" than the would be alternative. You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. I think my usage of the word "reality" is more... romantic as you say later? As in functional reality. Putting aside literal existence, what we think reality is, or the projection in our minds, is fundamentally wrong, which means it is open for tinkering with. Like with mantras for example. Words like Chi or sign have affects on the brain. Meanings which carry more weight than just their definition. A mysticism of sorts.

    When it comes to optimizing one's outlook on literal reality, there are likely many paths. Two of them that are relevant right now are the more scientific "I want to focus on literal reality and directly manipulate that" and the more... romantic, or humanities side of it. It's similar to the left brain right brain idea. One is structured and calculating while the other is creative and flexible. I definitely think that science nerds should exist, but am advocating for an alternative viewpoint where you aren't so much focusing on what you perceive, but working parallel to it. Our bodies and minds have internal processing that creates another variable to the equation, and a lot of our understanding of that is changing by the day.

    I think a lot of what the creative side is doing is finding shortcuts to coexisting (synchronicity) with literal reality in a sustainable way. There's a kind of deeper logic to things if you put down your magnifying glass and just observe (irony). Magic then doesn't have to literally exist for it to have an effect on the psyche. Or perhaps the effect it has on the psyche is what magic is intended to be. Okay I'm stopping before going down a deeper rabbit hole, lol.
    It's a delightful rabbit hole. Language makes it difficult... it could easily devolve into a semantics problem. The differences in our views are splitting hairs, really.

    It seems like it comes down to whether or not human perceptions are valid (post-processing). I don't believe that processing adds anything to 'reality', literal or not, more like it rearranges and prunes, and only by hubris do we (re)create or add anything new or special to existence as a 'subject'. The validity of those constructs and systems of knowledge are only relevant from a personal/cultural/social standpoint, something we rely on to navigate ourselves, each other, and the outside world which we encounter and live (functional as you say).

    This is a pretty unpopular way to look at things, of course. Even scientists that state we're a speck of dust in this vast universe act like we're the god damn center of it, still. It is an exercise in humility to entertain our 'creations' without clinging to them too tightly, or rebuking them if they seem incompatible.

    Quote Originally Posted by SantaFox View Post
    I think I'm Gemini mercury. Pisces sun tho! Aquarius moon.
    Heh. That's a fun combination. Maybe Aqua moon is why the Sidereal Aqua sun had some resonance?
    SantaFox and contradictionary thanked this post.

  4. #36484

    StinkyBambi for mod
    Make PerC Alive Again

  5. #36485

    maybe in a different life i'll roam the summer tundra harvesting fleece shed by musk oxen and make a fortune from it.

    . . . yeah, probably not. i've spent a stunningly unproductive day of knitting in front of youtube, but there's no reason to go overboard now compensating.
    Sela, SantaFox and Negotiator thanked this post.

  6. #36486

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt View Post
    It's a delightful rabbit hole. Language makes it difficult... it could easily devolve into a semantics problem. The differences in our views are splitting hairs, really.

    It seems like it comes down to whether or not human perceptions are valid (post-processing). I don't believe that processing adds anything to 'reality', literal or not, more like it rearranges and prunes, and only by hubris do we (re)create or add anything new or special to existence as a 'subject'. The validity of those constructs and systems of knowledge are only relevant from a personal/cultural/social standpoint, something we rely on to navigate ourselves, each other, and the outside world which we encounter and live (functional as you say).

    This is a pretty unpopular way to look at things, of course. Even scientists that state we're a speck of dust in this vast universe act like we're the god damn center of it, still. It is an exercise in humility to entertain our 'creations' without clinging to them too tightly, or rebuking them if they seem incompatible.
    Yeah. There's a finite yet unknown amount of sand in the sandbox and we're just making castles and stuff with what's available. But there are a lot of cool things we can make that we haven't thought of before, despite all the progress so far. Basically my point. It irks me when people assume that they have an idea of all the worthwhile things you can make with sand, or stuff you can do in the sandbox. Hubris (theirs) perhaps. Gotta think even further outside the box! and then out of that box! and then out of the can that both of those are wedged into! etc.

    Heh. That's a fun combination. Maybe Aqua moon is why the Sidereal Aqua sun had some resonance?
    Your intimate knowledge of that fascinates me. It's kind of vague and fuzzy in my mind.
    Squirt and contradictionary thanked this post.

  7. #36487
    ISTJ - The Duty Fulfillers

    ^ Now you've got me somewhat intrigued and I think I'm going to look mine up for Ss and Gs.
    Squirt thanked this post.

  8. #36488

    Quote Originally Posted by SantaFox View Post
    Yeah. There's a finite yet unknown amount of sand in the sandbox and we're just making castles and stuff with what's available. But there are a lot of cool things we can make that we haven't thought of before, despite all the progress so far. Basically my point. It irks me when people assume that they have an idea of all the worthwhile things you can make with sand, or stuff you can do in the sandbox. Hubris (theirs) perhaps. Gotta think even further outside the box! and then out of that box! and then out of the can that both of those are wedged into! etc.



    Your intimate knowledge of that fascinates me. It's kind of vague and fuzzy in my mind.
    We're on the same wavelength enough to get away with being purely conceptual and metaphorical. It's awesome.

    However I do want to give one example to illustrate the 'out of box' idea - how 'more primitive' cultures are less susceptible to optical illusions that trick 'modern' Westerners: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...amibias-nomads

    It's not about some grand idea of 'progress' to me. That is a sand trap that narrowly defines potentials based on the axioms of previous constructs. It locks us in, constricts. This is what I mean when I say that our nearest access to 'reality' is in the present moment, before processing, before we're shaped by history (the "advantage of progress") and context and additional layers of biology, and that is where new constructs outside those 'boxes' can be born, explore a different direction within our limits. It depends on what you actually want; if you've decided to build upon castles already formed or search for arrangements that have gone unrealized in the human mind (at least, in the time it is aware). One of those routes offers the most security, certainly, and even as I say this I'm much better at the former than the latter.

    EDIT: oh yeah, I just remembered... I don't think you can have a chart with Gemini Mercury and Pisces Sun. Mercury and Sun are never more than ~30 degrees apart, and that would be over 60 degrees.
    Last edited by Squirt; 12-08-2019 at 02:56 PM.
    SantaFox and contradictionary thanked this post.

  9. #36489

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt View Post
    We're on the same wavelength enough to get away with being purely conceptual and metaphorical. It's awesome.

    However I do want to give one example to illustrate the 'out of box' idea - how 'more primitive' cultures are less susceptible to optical illusions that trick 'modern' Westerners: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/2...amibias-nomads

    It's not about some grand idea of 'progress' to me. That is a sand trap that narrowly defines potentials based on the axioms of previous constructs. It locks us in, constricts. This is what I mean when I say that our nearest access to 'reality' is in the present moment, before processing, before we're shaped by history (the "advantage of progress") and context and additional layers of biology, and that is where new constructs outside those 'boxes' can be born, explore a different direction within our limits. It depends on what you actually want; if you've decided to build upon castles already formed or search for arrangements that have gone unrealized in the human mind (at least, in the time it is aware). One of those routes offers the most security, certainly, and even as I say this I'm much better at the former than the latter.
    Idk about you, but the whole "modernized world" has changed our minds seems dead-obvious. That's why it feels calming when you go to rural areas - your brain is slowing down to process things more methodically. Time comparatively stalls. Being productive is great, but being "busy" can serve as a distraction from other important things. Like your unsolved problems, for one.

    Guess "reality" is accessed through raw perception. Wonder if Se users get it more naturally than Si users? They (Si) have to have something analogous, though.

    Hm... the great "dream" of progress and opportunity. It can be insidious when ideals are thrown around and treated as if they're a given. It gets you to question who you are and what you actually want. What does "freedom" mean? Where do the lies end and the truth begins? It stands to reason that there are people who, being fully aware of the affect modernization has on the brain, are taking advantage of it for profit or power. Also why ahem certain political parties and individuals are able to get away with certain things. Look over there! a diversion!

    EDIT: oh yeah, I just remembered... I don't think you can have a chart with Gemini Mercury and Pisces Sun. Mercury and Sun are never more than ~30 degrees apart, and that would be over 60 degrees.
    That's probably because I'm actually Gemini Mars and Aries Mercury. ^_^;;
    Squirt and contradictionary thanked this post.

  10. #36490

    i bought something today that i have no need of, no known reason for wanting to own, and which (it turns out) won't fit in my current countertop oven anyway. but it was there and i found myself doing the 'i'm sure i'll think up a use for it' thing as i stood in the checkout lineup cradling it.

    idk what i can say. it's a braiser. a person with a crockpot, a pressure cooker and no shortage of regular pots doesn't need this, obviously. but i have such a sucker streak for things made out of iron.
    EyesOpen thanked this post.


     

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