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This is a discussion on Ask an INTJ a question. within the INTJ Forum - The Scientists forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Originally Posted by solarnis My apologies if you don't exhibit the behavior. is that sarcasm? I still rely heavily on ...

  1. #26211

    Quote Originally Posted by solarnis View Post
    My apologies if you don't exhibit the behavior.
    is that sarcasm?

    I still rely heavily on sarcasm but normally reserved for those I trust.
    fair enough, but not 'as a weapon' under those circs, i bet.

    that sort of summarizes my objection, actually. it's not the traits themselves. it's more this idea that we even bother to go around weaponizing any aspect of who we are that imo is not accurate about intjs in general. similar to what you say of yourself, i find most of us are just trying to find our own personal ways we can be in the world.
    Squirt and solarnis thanked this post.

  2. #26212

    Quote Originally Posted by alexhales View Post
    Right. I'm exactly the same. I don't care much for it and it can often feel draining for me but at the same time I don't want to be rude for not engaging in it. All the same, I do hope I can find people who prefer deeper conversations because it feels like the people I know aren't really interested in them.
    i mind it less one-on-one. in 1:1 i know that i'm 50% of the interaction and opting out would leave a big dent. so in the interests of that talk-back-when-somebody-speaks-to-you thing, i'm fine there. may be bored, may just be being 'polite', but i'm not bad at engineering the arms-length of it and finding my ways to the exits so it's not too much of a drain.

    where i struggle is when there's other people as well. in those circs, they don't 'need' me. i don't have to respond so long as somebody is, i don't need to be part of it, i have nothing to add and no obligation to add anything . . . so having to sit still and witness any length of conversation i have no interest in does start to get me wound up. it's dead air, it's cycles, there's nothing in it for me and i start to struggle with that unless i can do my own thing.

    when i can't it can feel like i'm the person with the casein allergy sitting around starving to death while everyone else eats a pizza.

  3. #26213

    Quote Originally Posted by solarnis View Post
    A new question in correlation to rules.

    I read there are 8 unspoken rules that every INTJ follows. Do you find these to be accurate?

    1. Be true to your word.

    2. Do not be a lemming

    3. Know your shit.

    4. Do not gossip

    5. Be heavily self-reliant

    6. Exude an aura of superiority

    7. Use Sarcasm Like A Weapon

    8. Intimidate Others With Your Eyes
    This list seems to confuse a dominant Te orientation/attitude with auxiliary Te, especially 6 - 8 (INTJ descriptions often do this to make INTJ sound more 'badass'). For a short summary that I think is pretty accurate:

    Expeditors - Dunning Personality Type Experts Dunning Personality Type Experts
    ESTJ and ENTJ
    Expeditors like to use logical analysis. They critique situations and spot flaws. They are organized and efficient, priding themselves on getting the most accomplished in the least time. Expeditors like to solve complex problems, efficiently complete tasks and to be clearly in charge. The Expeditor will quickly analyze a situation, take control and mobilize people to get the job done.
    Two Types of Expeditors
    Expeditors use analysis and decisiveness as their preferred approach to situations. To be effective, they need to balance their decisive nature with an effective way of taking in new information.
    Visionaries - Dunning Personality Type Experts Dunning Personality Type Experts
    Personality Types
    INTJ and INFJ
    Visionaries like to take time to think about and find meaning in data, ideas and experiences. They will create and revise rich mental models that help them to understand and interpret their experiences. Visionaries are future oriented. They like to look at possibilities and will often make complex plans for changing systems or improving processes.
    Two Types of Visionaries
    Visionaries are energized when working within the internal world, reflecting on and categorizing experiences. They must balance this internal focus by making decisions and acting in the world around them.
    I relate to some of that list, especially self-reliance, not gossiping, and being true to word. Otherwise, the in-your-face, unapologetic brashness describes dominant Te better than aux, imo.
    Dan E and lilysocks thanked this post.

  4. #26214
    INTJ

    Quote Originally Posted by solarnis View Post
    6. Exude an aura of superiority

    I'm the emperor all my subjects must bow before me. JK This might not be true about any of us but it's probably the impression we put off.

    7. Use Sarcasm Like A Weapon

    Yes. I don't really think this needs to be explained.

    8. Intimidate Others With Your Eyes

    Ahh, the quintessential Ni stare. I doubt we could be INTJs without it. I mean if you can't pull this off, your card is revoked to the club.
    Correction to 6: I'm confident only on things I know. I'm silent and passive with everything else.
    Correction to 7: I use sarcasm to highlight something that is glaringly wrong. I don't see how that's a weapon.
    Correction to 8: I don't 'intimidate' per se. The scowl is something that happens by default, and I have almost no control over it. Only when I sporadically become aware of it that I consciously try to mitigate it.

    6, 7, and 8 are all one and the same behavior.

    "Scowl and use sarcasm as a weapon in order to exude an aura of superiority."

    There, fixed it.
    Dan E, lilysocks, Squirt and 1 others thanked this post.

  5. #26215

    Quote Originally Posted by Liove View Post
    I'm silent and passive with everything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Liove View Post
    I don't see how that's a weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Liove View Post
    The scowl is something that happens by default, and I have almost no control over it. Only when I sporadically become aware of it that I consciously try to mitigate it.
    The intentions suggested by the list are definitely the sticking point. The first five could go either way, but the last three are squarely on the side of purposefully and needlessly confrontational.

    Here is a question: What is your relationship with confrontation? What situations tend to trigger confrontations in your experience? How do you navigate them?
    lilysocks thanked this post.

  6. #26216

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt View Post
    Here is a question: What is your relationship with confrontation?
    huh. that's a really neat question. i assume you're talking about interpersonal/interactive types of confrontation? i.e. involving at least one other person.

    asking because mr counsellor dude recently brought up my tendency to 'confront' [things most of his clients allegedly tend to avoid], but in that context i suspect he was talking more about merely internal demons and dragons and such. those i seem to do pretty well with, and i suspect that's because it just makes sense to me to go to my fi whenever i'm under personal stress. i don't see that as difficult - the issues are difficult. but reaching into the middle of them to find my baseline is a natural.

    socially though . . . actually, just the fact that he had to point my differentness out to me makes me wonder now if i just have a whole slightly-skewed concept of what 'confrontation' itself even is. i hadn't thought i was doing anything particularly unusual internally, and maybe i go through life confronting people externally too [by their measure of it ] without even recognizing the fact that i am. if i do i can't say i've ever met with enough hostility as a result, to lead me to know it's a thing.

    i think as a rough guess i don't mind 'confrontation' [and don't even perceive it as confrontation] with external elements (i.e. people) if it's te. if it's fi and i have to unpack it in public though . . . different thing.

    with that said though, i think my point was more that i can't seem to think of much in my past five or so years that i'd describe as a confrontation. only two things come to my mind and they were both rather extreme. i didn't deal well with either of them.

    What situations tend to trigger confrontations in your experience?
    gmmph. well, the two things were:

    1. a two-on-one stomping in a public park, with a group of about five people who were very drunk and were probably seriously neuro-challenged even without the drinking. that was a whole lot more primal than simply fi. one of them started trying to jump on the victim's skull and i just 'knew' if someone didn't stop it she was probably going to get killed.

    2. the other was a . . . i can't describe him. a prick. an absolute, organized, practiced, intentional rock-getting-off prick. he was glib and intentional and super-manipulative and he cornered a young muslim girl on a bus i was on and was beating her up ideologically. it was disgusting and i stood it until i couldn't stand it and then i went back there and told him to leave her alone.

    How do you navigate them?
    not gracefully. or suavely or with any coolth. if there's a looking-cool way to be a hero i've never found what it is. the first one i was in too primal a state to even know what name to give it. and the second one i had all the fury and none of the words. i just remember him playing the 'was i talking to you?' mind-your-own-business game and i guess rage has a place because it said 'i'm talking to YOU' back to him for me, without me even having to think. and i guess that hadn't ever occurred to him in the past and it worked :P
    Squirt thanked this post.

  7. #26217

    @lilysocks

    I would not have expected a 'self-confrontation' analysis as a response. You provide a refreshingly unexpected perspective. I've wanted to say that for a while now.

    I'm also habitually unaware of how confrontational (or not) I appear to others; but I know it happens when they come at me red-faced, screaming, crying, or swinging. That's always a good clue. How I'm perceived is something I've had to decipher as potentially 'dangerous' and it is difficult to identify the triggers. I've learned that I underestimate the investment people have in beliefs/institutions, so trying to be more sensitive to that has been a life-long lesson. What triggers me is unfair treatment/abuse/exploitation (as you described), as well as spotting wastefulness, inefficiency, or improvements to processes/systems.

    Aside from the "Fi" side of things, confrontation has proven useful to spur change, yet impatience has stalled my ability to use that well. The effort that can go into it is high and results are not usually instantaneous. Over time I've learned to sit back and wait; watch the change unfold over time without getting discouraged.

    It can also be enjoyable. Argumentation was how my old boss liked to make decisions, for instance, making it into a game of wit or conviction respectful of all parties. The critical factor that takes the pressure off is when the parties involved don't invest their ego or sense of security into it, when there is a genuine interest in coming to some form of progressive resolution rather than proving right or wrong.

    I'd really like to hear more experiences/thoughts on this topic.
    lilysocks thanked this post.

  8. #26218

    Quote Originally Posted by Squirt View Post
    The intentions suggested by the list are definitely the sticking point. The first five could go either way, but the last three are squarely on the side of purposefully and needlessly confrontational.

    Here is a question: What is your relationship with confrontation? What situations tend to trigger confrontations in your experience? How do you navigate them?
    Haaaate. I have had to practice getting better accepting that it needs to happen sometimes but mostly it still makes me feel very uncomfortable. I willingly get into confrontations with my (ESFJ) mom all the time but that's just our relationship dynamic. We are two very different personalities and clash. She gets under my skin with her nonsensical-ness and she calls me "big headed" and that I think I "know everything" for trying to use facts She also has boundary issues and can be too nosy and critical- so I've had to be very firm with her about boundaries such as telling her I don't have to tell her anything about my life as a person in my 30s who has lived away from home for over 10 years. Options for her are I tell her and she's supportive and I continue to tell her or I tell her and she's negative and I don't tell her anymore. She backed off and things improved a bit from there.

    Other than that I am generally very good, I think, seeing the potential conflict very far off and mediating/soothing/heading it off before it even happens if that makes sense. I generally tend to be very understanding and see things from various positions and points of view and can kind of come around or get someone else to come around, then it doesn't really end up happening. A few of my friends used to jokingly call me "the translator". So, there's that. I also kind of don't care enough to get into it with people so I just...divest myself of interest? Or I avoid avoid avoid - also seeing it very far off. I think this is all #enneagram9life but I dunno.

    The couple of times I can remember getting into conflicts, it's been when I have more factual topics or findings (in my reports I do for a living) and someone wants to argue that. I'm a bit more solid on that and feel more confident getting into it if I have that and care enough about it - but that is rare.

    Honestly I just haven't been in much conflict in my life in general (aside from the mom thing which is just a guarantee).
    Dan E, lilysocks and Squirt thanked this post.

  9. #26219

    I'm not a parent or anything. I just want to learn. What is it like as a INTJ parent?
    Dan E, intjonn and Squirt thanked this post.

  10. #26220

    Quote Originally Posted by solarnis View Post
    A new question in correlation to rules.

    I read there are 8 unspoken rules that every INTJ follows. Do you find these to be accurate?

    1. Be true to your word.

    Yes. Unless the situation requires me to be deceptive. In that case, I wouldn't say anything.

    2. Do not be a lemming

    Yes.

    3. Know your shit.

    Yes. However, I've gotten so lazy over the last few years. I used to do deep dives into a subject that interested me, but now I'll hear a factoid, think it's cool and then move on. Or worse, hear something and because it "felt" true, repeat it without verifying that it's correct. I'm not sure if I'm just going with the flow of the times (alternative facts/fake news era) or if I'm uninterested in life rn or the people I'm around or what, but I've been making a conscious effort to not be slovenly about this.

    I think this can go into the lemming slot as well.

    4. Do not gossip

    Lol. Sad to say, but I'm a big listener of workplace gossip. That's the currency, but I try not to peddle it.

    5. Be heavily self-reliant

    Agree, but I'm getting tired of doing things on my own, not gonna lie about that.

    6. Exude an aura of superiority

    More like aura of competence or capability. If others see that as being superior, then that's on them for having taste.

    7. Use Sarcasm Like A Weapon

    You know, when I joined this board, I said that I was direct, not passive aggressive at all, but using sarcasm to cut someone or an idea down is passive as hell. After seeing others communicate that way almost exclusively, I cut down quite a bit.

    8. Intimidate Others With Your Eyes

    The only times I've done this was to "scare" a would-be attacker away or in a meeting with a head hauncho. They try to intimidate with their eyes [or even create a false sense of relaxation with obvious body maneuverings] so I've learned to meet them on their level.

    Some people have told me that my gaze was intense, but that wasn't done purposefully. Whatever they were saying was really interesting/attention-grabbing at the the time.

    ETA: These rules remind me of my ISTJ dad.
    Last edited by ponpiri; 02-22-2020 at 02:16 AM.
    lilysocks and solarnis thanked this post.


     

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