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INTJs and morality

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This is a discussion on INTJs and morality within the INTJ Forum - The Scientists forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; Originally Posted by lilysocks i beg to differ. obviously it has a lot to do with where he's willing to ...

  1. #11
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by lilysocks View Post
    i beg to differ. obviously it has a lot to do with where he's willing to stick his stack.
    Snort.
    lilysocks and EyesOpen thanked this post.

  2. #12

    this seems like a pretty odd thread to me. i'm not sure what it's really about . . . and also really confused about the op's (apparent?) personal definitions of 'objective' and 'subjective'.

    i'm going to say though that if it's possible to be insulted by something when one can't work out what the something is trying to say, then i'm insulted. if i've got this right, you've got a friend not all of whose views you agree with, and somehow through the magic of function-attribution (? i think? idek what means this fe polr you name), this becomes a 'blind spot' that 'intjs' as a population all have as well.

    i think you need to widen your data pool if nothing else, because to me that's just silly. it's like saying you know one intj who paints his toenails, therefore inferior se, therefore intj men are tranvestites.

  3. #13
    INFJ - The Protectors

    This is the purpose of this thread, to discuss what INTJs find moral
    Although not stated in the original post, it was there if you rooted around for it.
    On the other hand, I'm stuck with objective vs. subjective morality. Objective morality just seems... nonexistent to me. Perhaps the OP could clarify for us?
    lilysocks thanked this post.

  4. #14
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldzMine View Post
    Start by asking him why he would never steal from you if you know this is true. Morality is objective and it is discovered via reason. This reason and reasoning then shows not only that it exists but why it is in a person's rational self-interest to follow this morality derived via reason. The initial question might get the mental wheel's spinning when he has to justify why he would never steal from his best friend or anybody for that matter.
    Couldn't disagree with you more. You underestimate how easy it is to change society's values. It happens as we speak with seemingly small and insignificant changes, and with bigger changes as more time passes.

    Even in a specific point in time, there are different societies with distinct morals.

    All it takes to change people's mindset is one person, with enough skill, enough luck and enough time.
    TateCameron thanked this post.

  5. #15

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeflowingthoughts View Post
    However INTJs hidden agenda is to love, to hold their Fi for someone who's 'earned it.' I've earned that. From that Fi, they will go 'this guys my bestfriend, I wouldn't do xyz to screw up the relationship.'
    afaik that is not what fi is.

    to me, ethics is anything that is independent of how much i like or don't like someone. it's the set of rules that transcend personal considerations. i wouldn't steal from you if i hated your guts. i wouldn't tolerate you stealing from me if i loved you to bits.

    anything that can vary depending on relationship or preferences is not in that category by definition.
    Last edited by lilysocks; 07-09-2015 at 11:01 PM.
    EyesOpen, jeb, Demoiselle Dys and 1 others thanked this post.

  6. #16
    INTJ - The Scientists

    I'm a bit confused by your original post, in that you don't make it clear what your conclusion is. I'm assuming that you are saying that INTJs (and ISTJs respectively) don't observe a set of objective moral rules?

    I would just like to chime in with a sociological perspective in order to explain why I myself do not subscribe to such a set of rules. In my mind, there is no such thing as objective morality. The terms "good" and "bad" are assigned to different actions and behaviours by the governing bodies of society. These words do not infact respresent anything other than the meanings that we as a society assign to them. Therefore, morality is subjective as it is created and re-interpreted on the basis of human beings' subjective feelings and beliefs.

    However, once these social rules are defined, they are adopted as what we superficially believe is objective. I don't believe that an INTJ behaves in a way that contrasts societies expectations because they have a moral blind spot (although some might). It's because they create their own definitions and boundaries to base their actions off of. A lot of my miscommunication or disagreement with Fe users occurs because they have expectations which I find pointless. An example of this is that in the school cafeteria I will not walk up to every person I know just to let them know I'm aware of their presence. It would be a waste of time - if I have something to say I will talk to them another time. I don't want to interrupt their current conversation. Most of my Fe friends say that it would be rude to not go talk to them.

    Regarding my own personal morality, I have a very very strong set of morals that I have defined myself, and which I adhere to. I look for people with similar morals to pursue relationships and friendships with because if we are not similar it is difficult for me to respect someone. For what it's worth, I don't find cheating acceptable in any situation. Not only has it happened to me, but I have been presented with the opportunity to do it myself many times. I was able to refuse even if that was what I desired emotionally because trying to make my relationship work was a priority. This is the standard I uphold my partners to, and since I have experienced it I know it is not an unreasonable request. In your situation, your INTJ probably doesn't have the same interpretation of relationships as you do, they may not be someone who values monogamy all that much and it is important to define things like this before engaging in discussion about it.
    pmj85, lilysocks and EyesOpen thanked this post.

  7. #17

    Yes, you can intellectualise it all you want, but there is such a thing as objective ethics. Just like there is such a thing as objective logic.

    If you cheat on someone that is objectively unethical. It might not be the end of it, but the act itself is objectively wrong if you're still together. No matter what the motivations and context and circumstances surrounding it. The act itself is wrong if you're still with the person.
    Last edited by Freeflowingthoughts; 07-10-2015 at 02:07 AM.

  8. #18
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by Broomhead View Post
    Morality, is as you said, subjective at best. Robin Hood is a personal favorite for this example. He was definitely "Good" in that he helped the poor, but he also took from the rich. To the rich, he was evil.

    I tend to take morality as an abstract concept that relies on situation more than any right-or-wrong code. For example, while I would never steal from a store no matter how much I disagreed with their policies, I have stolen from individuals for obtaining the goods in a morally incorrect way. (Kids would smuggle knives onto campus for bad things, I'd steal them and give them to a couple of Boyscouts I liked.)

    Now, if you asked me if stealing was wrong? I'd say that it was. But if you asked me if what I did was wrong, I'd say no, because they were undeserving of the goods and were bad people.

    For reference, I think most INTJ's rest close to Chaotic Neutral in D&D terms, to quote TVTropes: "Type 4 are those who are overly cynical, and hold no allegiance to anyone and decide for themselves what is right or wrong, and whether or not they want to do anything about it." We may or may not act good or evil, depending on which side has proven most useful. Most of my friends (and the people who seem to stalk me) identify me as good because I help people in need on occasion. Most of the people who hate me (and their cronies) identify me as evil because I am merciless when I am deeply convicted that someone needs to be taught a lesson.
    I can definitely relate to this. While I do hold some moral tenants close to my heart (i.e. respect one's elders), I tend to be a bit mercurial in my morality, depending on the situation (i.e. I will help certain people a lot if it means they can potentially help me get a job via our good relation).

  9. #19
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeflowingthoughts View Post
    Yes, you can intellectualise it all you want INTJs, but there is such a thing as objective ethics. Just like there is such a thing as objective logic.

    If you cheat on someone that is objectively unethical. It might not be the end of it, but the act itself is objectively wrong if you're still together. No matter what the motivations and context and circumstances surrounding it. The act itself is wrong if you're still with the person.
    You raised a discussion. You were given several contradicting points of view. Instead of addressing them and showing how those views are incorrect, you surmised them as "you say it because you are INTJs, so those ideas are not worth entertaining", and then proceeded to say the same things that were contradicted in said POVs.

    There's not much I want to discuss about with you at this point.
    lilysocks, EyesOpen and 12fingers thanked this post.

  10. #20
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeflowingthoughts View Post

    If you cheat on someone that is objectively unethical. It might not be the end of it, but the act itself is objectively wrong if you're still together. No matter what the motivations and context and circumstances surrounding it. The act itself is wrong if you're still with the person.
    If you have agreed to be in a monogamous relationship and proceed to cheat on somebody - yes that is wrong. I do not think any of us are disagreeing with that. I think it's wrong because of the betrayal and dishonesty that is associated with breaking the trust that they have given you. However, that is because we live in a society which values monogamous relationships. It is wrong because we have defined it as breaking our social code of conduct. In polygamous cultures of the past and present this would not be viewed as wrong. Similarly, in a culture which distributes very little social and economic power to its female population, it would likely not be viewed as wrong for a man to cheat on his wife because regardless of his behavior, he is superior.
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