[INTJ] How do you deal with NFs in debates about emotions or people's emotions in general?

How do you deal with NFs in debates about emotions or people's emotions in general?

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This is a discussion on How do you deal with NFs in debates about emotions or people's emotions in general? within the INTJ Forum - The Scientists forums, part of the NT's Temperament Forum- The Intellects category; I recently had a debate with an INFJ, he claims I push my agenda on people. Which could be true, ...

  1. #1

    How do you deal with NFs in debates about emotions or people's emotions in general?

    I recently had a debate with an INFJ, he claims I push my agenda on people. Which could be true, my agenda is "using your fucking head". Also that I have the inability to see things from everyones perspective, which is untrue. I just can't simply agree with someone just because their feelings are hurt on something so little. Or if I see how things could've been avoided altogether, I tend to disregard how someone feels and help them prep for the next time something happens, which in return deems me "heartless". How do you deal with someone who is so blinded by their emotions that they don't speak what they think and are always worried about how someone will react? I find it difficult to believe him or take his word on some things because I know he's always thinking with his emotions. I personally find it exhausting to use my brain power to avoid someone's feelings being hurt but I wont go out out of my way to be "hurtful", if someone asks me something I speak truthfully. Please express if you feel the same way and why. Also if you did once think this way and your perspective has changed, what changed it and why do you think I should change it as well?

    I appreciate everyone taking the time to read and express their opinions on this. I'm not sure who to go to when it comes to these things.
    Figure, Ryosuke93, ninjahitsawall and 4 others thanked this post.



  2. #2
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Quote Originally Posted by TheProtagonist View Post
    I recently had a debate with an INFJ
    I don't debate with INFJs that seems like such a pointless waste of time. I'm not sure i've ever convinced an INFJ of anything, I feel its more like I gave them the information and then after they processed it for a while they convinced themselves that I was right.


  3. #3

    Lol I still do it for some reason! I guess I look at it as a goal of mine to actually convince them, this alone adds fuel to the fire and I keep going until they become exhausted, but it's still not a win either way. I'm sure I'd be better off if I did not debate with them.
    fanaticalmusings thanked this post.

  4. #4
    ISFP - The Artists

    The truth does not help all things. Honestly it's paving the road to hell when mishandled.

    But, I can see why that may not have been a fruitful debate.
    another number thanked this post.

  5. #5

    Ask him/her if people's emotions will solve the problem. (FYI, they usually don't.)

  6. #6
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Yes, this whole idea that because I believe what I think is true is true, and won't change it for the sake of harmony, I therefore am pushing my agenda. Which I find fascinating, because generally truth is my primary agenda. I don't deviate from it for my own benefit either. So it is hardly some selfish position pushing my own cause.

    Infjs value harmony above truth. It took me a long time to get this, but there are some valid reasons for this that are advantageous for a smoothly running society. I will sift through vast amounts of information to try to identify truth. As I sift through those vast amounts of information my thoughts are refined, and some of my ideas I considered as truth before get rejected and replaced. I love this process, to the point where I want people to challenge my faulty thinking so I can find new supplies of information, and a clearer grasp of truth. But, most people don't have the mental energy, processing ability, or time to do this. And to be honest, if INTJ were the only personality type in the world, a lot of life's details just wouldn't get done. And a lot of the world's "detail oriented worker types" really don't get or care about the conceptual frameworks I build in my head to support the practical applications I think need to be applied.

    So the cool thing about NF's they care about the concept and ideas, and even at times the importance of the practical application of them. But they also often understand better how to get those S types to buy into it. If I listen closely and try to understand how their feelings and emotions are driving them it's a great bridge to better understand how to deal with others from a different perspective. I do find I wear my poor INFJ friend out. But she actually tends to have insights and is willing to discuss. I am trying harder to avoid debate. I try to be more inquisitive about her point of view. I don't think you can convince some INFJ'S of anything. You just have to let them figure it out for themselves.

    Sorry this is rambly. NFs can be frustrating. But they are a wealth of information, if you work at learning how their perspective works. And they can be great fun to be around.
    Figure, lilysocks, ninjahitsawall and 4 others thanked this post.

  7. #7
    INTJ - The Scientists

    Don't get into it! They only seem interested in facts which agree with their preconceptions

  8. #8
    INTJ - The Scientists

    I have the same problem. I experiment a lot with how to deal with it.

    What i found out:
    - they will need to talk a lot about how they feel. They are not interested in truth as an intj sees it, to them, truth is how they feel. So if you don't talk about feeling (i know, it is irrelevant to us), they will feel as if you ignored them.
    - SF: they will create truth like a social construct. It is not the individual, but the group who decides on the truth. So if you as an individual proclaim what the truth is, you push your agenda: you push the group to accept your truth, even if it is 'true'. The group must come to a conclusion, you can only offer a point of view that is not 'your' idea but 'an' idea. Like stripping it from your individuality.
    - Marie Forleo has a good video on how to deal with this. It's about listening about how they feel and so on, and then asking if they would be open to a suggestion. Then you wait for a yes. Then you continue with 'i feel like xyz could solve this. This is why...'
    I've tried it a few times, works nice in groups with an emotional leader surrounded by SF's.

    Use a lot of imo's: just stating truth (even if it is true period) will be hurtfull, for to them is seems like there is no room to feel alternatives. (I know, it is not about feeling. But that is how their world works)

    I have gotten to a 50% success rate with this. However, in 1 on 1 conversations I tend to become slippy, for it seems more 'intimate' so i forget to put the mask and i start communicating as i would with a fellow intj. I don't like wearing masks. Big struggle in life.

    Facing truth isn't something many people are good at. Well, that's why we have the higher incomes and positions in society I guess
    Last edited by Zuflex; 01-25-2016 at 09:50 AM.
    lilysocks, ninjahitsawall, Dizzy4 and 2 others thanked this post.

  9. #9

    Quote Originally Posted by Punniez View Post
    Ask him/her if people's emotions will solve the problem. (FYI, they usually don't.)
    I'm sure of the answer I will get. But I will definitely ask this when the occasion arises.
    fanaticalmusings thanked this post.

  10. #10

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzy4 View Post
    Yes, this whole idea that because I believe what I think is true is true, and won't change it for the sake of harmony, I therefore am pushing my agenda. Which I find fascinating, because generally truth is my primary agenda. I don't deviate from it for my own benefit either. So it is hardly some selfish position pushing my own cause.

    Infjs value harmony above truth. It took me a long time to get this, but there are some valid reasons for this that are advantageous for a smoothly running society. I will sift through vast amounts of information to try to identify truth. As I sift through those vast amounts of information my thoughts are refined, and some of my ideas I considered as truth before get rejected and replaced. I love this process, to the point where I want people to challenge my faulty thinking so I can find new supplies of information, and a clearer grasp of truth. But, most people don't have the mental energy, processing ability, or time to do this. And to be honest, if INTJ were the only personality type in the world, a lot of life's details just wouldn't get done. And a lot of the world's "detail oriented worker types" really don't get or care about the conceptual frameworks I build in my head to support the practical applications I think need to be applied.

    So the cool thing about NF's they care about the concept and ideas, and even at times the importance of the practical application of them. But they also often understand better how to get those S types to buy into it. If I listen closely and try to understand how their feelings and emotions are driving them it's a great bridge to better understand how to deal with others from a different perspective. I do find I wear my poor INFJ friend out. But she actually tends to have insights and is willing to discuss. I am trying harder to avoid debate. I try to be more inquisitive about her point of view. I don't think you can convince some INFJ'S of anything. You just have to let them figure it out for themselves.

    Sorry this is rambly. NFs can be frustrating. But they are a wealth of information, if you work at learning how their perspective works. And they can be great fun to be around.
    This was very helpful. I'm very aggressive in this area because I only do it to look out for them. I hate to tell them that something will happen and then it happens, then they want you to feel bad. It's hard to comfort and say "I told you so" at the same time. I like your choice of words, I love finding different/better ways to express myself. But, I guess I should follow suit and try to avoid all debates with them, but that sucks when 99% of my closest friends at NFs, I have one NT in the bunch lol.


     
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